The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by psycho gundam
most problems are here

- for one, sasuke would eat part one kakashi for breakfast.
part 2 sasuke is basically sasuke minus itachi powers and ems, he still has all the stuff he used to take on itachi though iirc.

-chiyo would also defeat kakashi more times than not

- and i love gai, but it's only his gates that really have him fight the likes of samahada-less kisame and even hope to damage him, not sure if he should really be in the S category without an asterisk

- kakashi and gai are A+, kakashi in part II (w/mangekyo) is S- i guess, and gai with gates open is somewhere in the S category

-Debatable but yeah I agree. He needs to be bumped up to S at least.

-Agreed.

-I wouldn't say they are only A+ in part one...S- fits. In part two they've become ridiculously hax, so they would both be above S-. Hate to say they'd be S+, but that seems to fit them best in my opinion.

I don't think start-of part 2 Sasuke would stomp part 1 Kakashi, or even necessarily win a lot of the time. He's good, no doubt, and has more power, but Kakashi still has a wider range of jutsu and lots of experience.

And someone can be stronger than another and still in the same category.

Gai doesn't get an * because he needs the gates for S-class stuff, because the gates are part of his power set.

Originally posted by dadudemon
None of them are reinforced. They are chakra generated, however. I thinks that's where we are disagreeing.

That strikes me as semantic- they are stronger than their normal equivalents due to coming from chakra, period.

The full grown Kyuubi is MUCH bigger than what you assumed. It was far more than a foot.

I'm refering to when he held 4-tails. At the least, the wood wasn't proportionally any bigger than what he uses

Also, Yamato uses wood for just about everything. It's only natural that his first choice/instinct would be to choose wood for defense.

Probably because it's most likely better.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
most problems are here

- for one, sasuke would eat part one kakashi for breakfast.
part 2 sasuke is basically sasuke minus itachi powers and ems, he still has all the stuff he used to take on itachi though iirc.

-chiyo would also defeat kakashi more times than not

- and i love gai, but it's only his gates that really have him fight the likes of samahada-less kisame and even hope to damage him, not sure if he should really be in the S category without an asterisk

- kakashi and gai are A+, kakashi in part II (w/mangekyo) is S- i guess, and gai with gates open is somewhere in the S category

Hebi Sasuke is *at least* S, thanks to the Cursed Seal, Orochimaru's jutsus and his own abilities.
Pre-Hebi is arguably S-, though all we saw was him pwning Yamato, Sakura, Sai, Naruto & the Kyuubi stoned. Seeing as I like Sasuke, I'd say Pre-Hebi is S-tier. awesome

Also, current Sasuke doesn't have everything he had when he took on Itachi. He lacks Orochimaru's jutsu, and he lacks the Cursed Seal, which offers a pretty significant boost in power. While in CS1, for a while, he was able to outrun Itachi firing off Amaterasu.

Current Kakashi is S tier. His Kamui is much more proficient now, plus his speed & chakra capacity has increased quite a lot. Start of Part 2 Kakashi is probably S-.

- Gai using Gates is no different from Jiraiya/Naruto using Sage Mode etc. We take those forms into account. If anything, Gai should be in S.

Originally posted by Q99
I don't think start-of part 2 Sasuke would stomp part 1 Kakashi, or even necessarily win a lot of the time. He's good, no doubt, and has more power, but Kakashi still has a wider range of jutsu and lots of experience.

And someone can be stronger than another and still in the same category.

Experience doesn't mean much in Naruto-verse, even to characters in roughly the same class. You have guys like Pain beating Jiraiya, Sasuke beating Danzou, Sasori being stronger than Chiyo and so on. Start of Part 2 Sasuke was roughly as good as start of Part 2 Kakashi, and better than Part 1 Kakashi.
Sasuke is about as smart as Kakashi, his base Sharingan is better & longer lasting, and he has more chakra + cursed seal.

Also, I now kind of agree with them about lowering Kakashi down to A+. He had one S-class jutsu, and his chakra capacity was much lower (iirc, 4 Raikiris was his limit).
Then there's that comment by Kakashi stating that Naruto post-Kakuzu fight could be his equal. Speaks more for Naruto though.

I really don't think Chiyo would beat Kakashi.

- Gai using Gates is no different from Jiraiya/Naruto using Sage Mode etc. We take those forms into account. If anything, Gai should be in S.

The main reason I'd rate him as - is more that his S-class techniques are limited use and leave him vulnerable.

Start of Part 2 Sasuke was roughly as good as start of Part 2 Kakashi, and better than Part 1 Kakashi.
Sasuke is about as smart as Kakashi, his base Sharingan is better & longer lasting, and he has more chakra + cursed seal.

But he has two chakra natures vs 3, has never done something like Kakashi copying a water dragon jutsu as it's happening and complete it first, when it comes to the copying aspect of the Sharingan, he's the best we've seen. The subtle hypnotizing of Zabuza while also doing other jutsu was impressive too, and I'd say his Taijutsu is better (he does have at least the first gate, and he totally pwned Zabuza).

Also, I now kind of agree with them about lowering Kakashi down to A+. He had one S-class jutsu, and his chakra capacity was much lower (iirc, 4 Raikiris was his limit).
Then there's that comment by Kakashi stating that Naruto post-Kakuzu fight could be his equal. Speaks more for Naruto though.

How often has he even needed all 4, though? My general instinct is, if someone has S-class techniques they're generally going to be S-class, and his has no vulnerable period afterwards and can be used repeatedly, in addition to being able to penetrate almost any defense.

If we do bump him down, I think we should bump down some A+ and A rank people too, I've been rating based on the assumption he's on a bit higher level.

-
Hm... how do we rate Naruto with the incomplete Rasenshuriken?

Originally posted by Q99
The main reason I'd rate him as - is more that his S-class techniques are limited use and leave him vulnerable.

The negative after effects of the Gates took place after Kisame died. Something like Afternoon Tiger didn't leave him vulnerable in any way too. Kudos to Kisame for surviving a tech that had such power.

Originally posted by Q99
But he has two chakra natures vs 3, has never done something like Kakashi copying a water dragon jutsu as it's happening and complete it first, when it comes to the copying aspect of the Sharingan, he's the best we've seen. The subtle hypnotizing of Zabuza while also doing other jutsu was impressive too, and I'd say his Taijutsu is better (he does have at least the first gate, and he totally pwned Zabuza).

Both of them have one which won't be very useful as Sasuke's Raiton would trump Kakashi's Doton, while Suiton would trump Sasuke's fire techs, but Sasuke isn't a heavy Fire user anyway. Great Dragon Fire technique is the only notable one Sasuke has used, and it's damn powerful for a B-rank tech.

He's done stuff that Kakashi hasn't done either. He's taken Chidori, a technique Kakashi created, to higher levels thanks to shape manipulation. Then let's not forget Kirin, which Kakashi has no way to survive. Also, with his Sharingan, he did break out of Tsukiyomi.
He's also successfully hypnotized Deidara, who built up a resistance to genjutsu, shown by how he saw through Sasuke's first genjutsu.

Though what definitely puts him past Kakashi is the Cursed seal. He was handling Yamato without even using it.

Sasuke has his sword, and hundreds of summonable kunais/shurikens, which he throws at a speed equal to Itachi's. Probably tips the scales in his favour in the Taijutsu department.
(Come to think of it, where the hell did Itachi get so many shurikens?)

Originally posted by Q99
How often has he even needed all 4, though? My general instinct is, if someone has S-class techniques they're generally going to be S-class, and his has no vulnerable period afterwards and can be used repeatedly, in addition to being able to penetrate almost any defense.

If we do bump him down, I think we should bump down some A+ and A rank people too, I've been rating based on the assumption he's on a bit higher level.

If he were up against someone in the S-class, he'd definitely need all 4. Orochimaru was a few feet away from him, and Kakashi knew that Raikiri wouldn't work. The Sharingan would make Raikiri and Chidori obsolete in a fight between Sasuke and Kakashi, as they both would easily see the other trying to hit them.
Also, S-rank techniques don't indicate power, they indicate difficulty. Typically, power corresponds to rank, but rank is more an indicator of difficulty rather than power.

Like I said before, he is stronger than the other A+ Konoha nin, but not by enough to warrant a bump up, certainly not in Part 1. Part 2 is an entirely different scenario as he's faster, and his chakra levels have increased by a lot.

Originally posted by Q99
Hm... how do we rate Naruto with the incomplete Rasenshuriken?

Dunno. Incomplete Rasenshuriken is probably no different from Rasenshuriken in terms of damage to enemy, but Naruto has to be close to hit them. With incomplete Rasenshuriken, he might be A+. I say A+ as he probably wouldn't use it unless near-death or something like that. He does have Fuuton Rasengan though.

Also, what about Sakumo Hatake? He was supposedly better than the Sannin, or something to that extent.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Both of them have one which won't be very useful as Sasuke's Raiton would trump Kakashi's Doton, while Suiton would trump Sasuke's fire techs, but Sasuke isn't a heavy Fire user anyway. Great Dragon Fire technique is the only notable one Sasuke has used, and it's damn powerful for a B-rank tech.

He's done stuff that Kakashi hasn't done either. He's taken Chidori, a technique Kakashi created, to higher levels thanks to shape manipulation. Then let's not forget Kirin, which Kakashi has no way to survive. Also, with his Sharingan, he did break out of Tsukiyomi.
He's also successfully hypnotized Deidara, who built up a resistance to genjutsu, shown by how he saw through Sasuke's first genjutsu.

Though what definitely puts him past Kakashi is the Cursed seal. He was handling Yamato without even using it.

Kakashi would still had been able to take Sasuke out, at least at the start of Part 2 anyway. I also think Kakashi could counter Kirin if the hype about Raikiri is correct anyway. Plus Kakashi still has more techniques at his disposal and Kamui would be a problem for Sasuke too.

Kakashi would have trouble with Sasuke's c2 form but it wouldn't be too much since he seem to be stronger than Yamato to some degree.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Also, what about Sakumo Hatake? He was supposedly better than the Sannin, or something to that extent.

Kakashi's dad strength is a mystery all together; however anything to make Tsunade look even more unimpressive for a senju wouldn't be a shocker.

This is a random question but why does Sasuke want to destroy Konoha again? Since he was so willing to go after Danzo, wouldn't it make mre sense to go after the elders?

The negative after effects of the Gates took place after Kisame died. Something like Afternoon Tiger didn't leave him vulnerable in any way too. Kudos to Kisame for surviving a tech that had such power.

Yes, it's not a problem in 1-on-1 fights, but if baddies have backup, it's an issue.

Both of them have one which won't be very useful as Sasuke's Raiton would trump Kakashi's Doton, while Suiton would trump Sasuke's fire techs, but Sasuke isn't a heavy Fire user anyway. Great Dragon Fire technique is the only notable one Sasuke has used, and it's damn powerful for a B-rank tech.

Still, between water and lightning techs there's overall a small elemental edge there.

(Come to think of it, where the hell did Itachi get so many shurikens?)

Akatsuki likely handles gear costs.

Sasuke has his sword, and hundreds of summonable kunais/shurikens, which he throws at a speed equal to Itachi's. Probably tips the scales in his favour in the Taijutsu department.

I'll point out Kakashi was handling all of Itachi's moves until Itachi busted out the mangekyo.

The Sharingan would make Raikiri and Chidori obsolete in a fight between Sasuke and Kakashi, as they both would easily see the other trying to hit them.

It does mean that if they get in a place where they directly clash them, Kakashi'd win. I don't think the other having a sharingan will make the moves obsolete, just trickier, like a chess match.

Also, S-rank techniques don't indicate power, they indicate difficulty. Typically, power corresponds to rank, but rank is more an indicator of difficulty rather than power.

Yea, but compared to the chidori, it's pretty much the same thing except with even more intense electricity.

Like I said before, he is stronger than the other A+ Konoha nin, but not by enough to warrant a bump up, certainly not in Part 1. Part 2 is an entirely different scenario as he's faster, and his chakra levels have increased by a lot.

I don't think he got any faster, some of his best speed feats are from part 1. His chakra level has gone up, sure, but I think his other stats remained fairly stable.

Also, what about Sakumo Hatake? He was supposedly better than the Sannin, or something to that extent.

That's pretty much all we know about his strength. Also, that was the sannin as-of when they were all active, back during the war, which may've been less.

This is a random question but why does Sasuke want to destroy Konoha again? Since he was so willing to go after Danzo, wouldn't it make mre sense to go after the elders?

He does want the elders more than anyone else, but he views Konoha's peace as made on Itachi's suffering and thus they should suffer for it.

Question: What would current naruto be ranked
at with full chakara control and sage mode?

Sorry to go off topic

Originally posted by McNasty996
Question: What would current naruto be ranked
at with full chakara control and sage mode?

Sorry to go off topic

We've yet to really see him use all these abilities, and it probably depends on how we decide to handle the upper ranks, but probably some flavor of double-S.

Who's the highest ranked currrently then and why?
Based on technique, power, ninjutsu?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Hebi Sasuke is *at least* S, thanks to the Cursed Seal, Orochimaru's jutsus and his own abilities.
Pre-Hebi is arguably S-, though all we saw was him pwning Yamato, Sakura, Sai, Naruto & the Kyuubi stoned. Seeing as I like Sasuke, I'd say Pre-Hebi is S-tier. awesome

Also, current Sasuke doesn't have everything he had when he took on Itachi. He lacks Orochimaru's jutsu, and he lacks the Cursed Seal, which offers a pretty significant boost in power. While in CS1, for a while, he was able to outrun Itachi firing off Amaterasu.

i never mentioned "current" sasuke

there are 3 part II sasuke:

- pre-itachi death

- post- itachi death

- ems sasuke

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, it's not a problem in 1-on-1 fights, but if baddies have backup, it's an issue.

Well, Afternoon Tiger does have insane range. He'd most likely take them all out if they were bunched together.

Though yeah, in a group fight, it is more of an issue.

Originally posted by Q99
Still, between water and lightning techs there's overall a small elemental edge there.

Part 1 Kakashi never demonstrated the ability to perform Water Jutsu without an external water source. 313

So the edge depends on the field.

Originally posted by Q99
Akatsuki likely handles gear costs.

I mean we've never seen anyone carry hundreds of shurikens on person. Or rather, I never thought they'd carry hundreds of shurikens on their person.

Originally posted by Q99
I'll point out Kakashi was handling all of Itachi's moves until Itachi busted out the mangekyo.

All Itachi did was attack with a water jutsu and then an explosive clone, with Kakashi stating that his eyes couldn't keep up with Itachi. Also, Kakashi noted that he was exhausted after that very brief skirmish.
Compare that to the time where he fought Naruto & Sakura in Part 2, and he had his Sharingan active for nearly the whole day.

Originally posted by Q99
It does mean that if they get in a place where they directly clash them, Kakashi'd win. I don't think the other having a sharingan will make the moves obsolete, just trickier, like a chess match.

True, not obsolete, but much much harder to land. For one, charging straight at the opponent with the attack won't work. Sasuke's various Chidori-related techs would help him. Chidori Senbon's pretty good for such a fight.

Originally posted by Q99
I don't think he got any faster, some of his best speed feats are from part 1. His chakra level has gone up, sure, but I think his other stats remained fairly stable.

Dunno, he's caught Pain's blade in mid-strike, and Madara has praised his speed as well. If his chakra level has increased, his speed with Shunshin should have increased as well theoretically, as he has more chakra to spare per use.

Originally posted by Q99
That's pretty much all we know about his strength. Also, that was the sannin as-of when they were all active, back during the war, which may've been less.

True, they were probably weaker back then. So, S- then?

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Kakashi would still had been able to take Sasuke out, at least at the start of Part 2 anyway. I also think Kakashi could counter Kirin if the hype about Raikiri is correct anyway. Plus Kakashi still has more techniques at his disposal and Kamui would be a problem for Sasuke too.

Kakashi would have trouble with Sasuke's c2 form but it wouldn't be too much since he seem to be stronger than Yamato to some degree.

I doubt it. Start of Part 2 Sasuke was handling Team 7 as if they were genin.
At the very best, it would have been 50/50.
Start of Part 2 Kakashi could barely aim Kamui. Sasuke would just dodge that shit with CS. stoned

Some people here believe that Itachi couldn't even react to the actual bolt. There's no way Kakashi is reacting to the bolt if Itachi couldn't. Plus, Kirin's power far surpasses Raikiri's. Only jutsu like Bijuu blasts, C0, full powered Shinra Tensei, and Chibaku Tensei are more destructive.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
This is a random question but why does Sasuke want to destroy Konoha again? Since he was so willing to go after Danzo, wouldn't it make mre sense to go after the elders?

He's still targeting the elders, but he wants to take down Konoha as well. In his current state of mind, he believes that everyone in Konoha is responsible for Itachi's tragedy, as they are enjoying peace at Itachi's and Sasuke's expense.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
part 2 sasuke (pre-itachi death) has curse mark, chidori variations (including kirin), and his speed. the same stuff he had when he fought itachi since his time during the time skip was him training to fight itachi, he even researched his hebi/taka team members for their usefulness in facilitating his goals.

i never mentioned "current" sasuke

there are 3 part II sasuke:

- pre-itachi death

- post- itachi death

- ems sasuke

You're forgetting the fact that Sasuke had absorbed Orochimaru long before his fight with Itachi, and thus had gained access to Orochimaru's abilities. When he fought Itachi, he had the Snake summoning contract, and Orochimaru's jutsu, in addition to everything else you mentioned. After the fight with Itachi, he lost the Cursed Seal AND Orochimaru. Thus he lost the Snake Summoning contract, the enhanced regeneration and Orochimaru's jutsu, along with the Cursed Seal.

No, there are 4 different versions in Part 2.

-Pre-Orochimaru absorption: First appearance to his defeat & absorption of Orochimaru.
Has the Cursed Seal, and his standard abilities.

-Post-Orochimaru absorption: After his defeat and absorption of Orochimaru to Itachi removing Orochimaru's influence from him. Basically Sasuke when his organization was called Hebi.
Has the Cursed Seal, Orochimaru's jutsu, and his standard abilities.

-MS Sasuke: After Itachi's death to his gaining of the EMS. Basically, Sasuke when his organization was called Taka.
Has the MS, his standard abilities & the Hawk Summon.

-EMS Sasuke: After he gains the EMS.
Has the EMS, his standard abilities, and the Hawk Summon.

"His standard abilities" - Chidori and its variants, Katon Jutsu, Kirin, Sharingan related abilities, Shuriken techs & his Taijutsu. (including Sword skills & Speed)

Originally posted by McNasty996
Who's the highest ranked currrently then and why?
Based on technique, power, ninjutsu?

Highest ranked ninja we've seen in action? Nagato.

Highest ranked ninja in the series? The Sage of the Six Paths. Easily I might add.
The dude created the moon after splitting the Juubi's chakra into the 9 Biju, while he was on his death bed.
I can't even imagine what the guy did or could have done when he was at his Prime as the Jinchuriki of the Juubi.

Also when he has the MS, he steadily unlocks it's abilities. During the Killerbee fight, he's pretty much back to pre-Orochimerge until he figures out amaterasu. Then there's partial susano'o + amaterasu which is pretty nice, and then once he gets full susano'o he's really quite powerful.

I mean we've never seen anyone carry hundreds of shurikens on person. Or rather, I never thought they'd carry hundreds of shurikens on their person.

Didn't he do the summon-shuriken thing too? I think it's an Uchiha trick.

Tenten summons her weapons after all.

All Itachi did was attack with a water jutsu and then an explosive clone, with Kakashi stating that his eyes couldn't keep up with Itachi. Also, Kakashi noted that he was exhausted after that very brief skirmish.

Hm, yea, dropping pt 1 Kakashi down to A+ due to low stamina would make sense. Even if he's S- strong, if he can't keep it up long that's a problem.

True, they were probably weaker back then. So, S- then?

Eh, I'd just leave out the White fang due to lack of info. He could be anywhere from S- to S+.

I doubt it. Start of Part 2 Sasuke was handling Team 7 as if they were genin.
At the very best, it would have been 50/50.

Well, Sai was useful, Naruto just stood there, Sakura too, and Yamato was semi-useful.

With regards to the tier lists:

Rikudo-Sennin is on a tier of his own. SSS+ or above.

Nagato is somewhere between SSS and SSS-.

Tobi is SS. As Madara with EMS, probably higher, around SSS.

Current Naruto is somewhere between S+ and SS-.
Probably higher once we see all of his abilities.

Originally posted by Q99
That strikes me as semantic- they are stronger than their normal equivalents due to coming from chakra, period.

No, none of them are cept the ice-glass and amaterasu. Those are exceptions, not the rule.
All of them are just as they are: elemental powers.

The regular fire is no stronger than regular fire of the same size. The earth manipulation is not stronger, either: it's the same thing as the Earth because they are manipulating the earth. Same thing with the wood. In fact, the wood seems to splinter very easily like dry wood. It appears to be weaker than living wood.

An it REALLY is just plain ol' dry wood. Why do I know? Cause Yamato was rebuilding Konoha with it. If it were wet wood, it would warp like made crazy and smell while it dried.

I rest my case.

Originally posted by Q99
I'm refering to when he held 4-tails. At the least, the wood wasn't proportionally any bigger than what he uses

Wood a foot thick is very strong. And, he did not seem to be struggling very much when he caught him with the wood. Also, he was initializing the chakra stealing jutsu from the First. All nice elements that point to why a four tales can be capture. Also, a weak form of Oro appears to be physically stronger than the four tails cloak.

Originally posted by Q99
Probably because it's most likely better.

Definitely would be better than Earth for just about eveything: Earth would easily crumble if you tried to walk on it. It would be a crappy choice to hold up a bridge (like in the manga when it was collapsing), and so forth.

Earth is useful when trying to put out fires, when used in very large quantities, etc. Wood would be the obvious choice for most things 'nina' imo.

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
With regards to the tier lists:

Rikudo-Sennin is on a tier of his own. SSS+ or above.

Nagato is somewhere between SSS and SSS-.

Tobi is SS. As Madara with EMS, probably higher, around SSS.

Current Naruto is somewhere between S+ and SS-.
Probably higher once we see all of his abilities.

Q has problems with SSS, he/she will not like SSS+/-. 😛 The way I view it, Rikudo is the only one in SSS, with people like Hashirama and Prime Madara in SS+, as they could use Biju in battle.

Nagato is at the top of the SS-tier right now, with current Naruto behind but in the same tier. Current Naruto may be more powerful than Nagato, but we haven't seen him in action yet.

It's gonna be pretty hard for Naruto to top Nagato's resurrection feat.

We'll have to see more of what Biju Naruto is capable of.

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
With regards to the tier lists:

Rikudo-Sennin is on a tier of his own. SSS+ or above.

Nagato is somewhere between SSS and SSS-.

Tobi is SS. As Madara with EMS, probably higher, around SSS.

Current Naruto is somewhere between S+ and SS-.
Probably higher once we see all of his abilities.