Originally posted by dadudemon....you obviously don't understand how heat works. just because a flame is big, does not mean that it is hotter than a smaller flame. so just saying a "big ass ball of fire" doesn't mean anything, the fact that sasuke's fire melted that rock when he was much weaker than he is now, means it is incredible fire.
Again, how is this, "being any stronger than a big ass ball of fire accelerated and blown at something."You do realize that it would be VERY hot and, on top of that, would be traveling at a really high velocity. So, basically, it's REALLY hot air being blown at a high speed.
you realize that air needs to be moving REALLY fast to break through the stone roof that they did, the fact that theirs did shows there is more power behind it than just speed would give it.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Again, how is this, "being any stronger than a big ass ball of fire accelerated and blown at something."You do realize that it would be VERY hot and, on top of that, would be traveling at a really high velocity. So, basically, it's REALLY hot air being blown at a high speed.
Also on fireballs, observe this. Itachi's perfectly standard fireball shot by his reduced-chakra clone simply tears through the ground. Normal fire simply doesn't do that.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Which is why he should be in A+ 313
Going by what we've seen, he's better than Asuma, and his Water Form is pretty hax, unless he's up against a Raiton user. If he's merged with Water, he's the most durable ninja in the series right now.
Offensively, most of what he's shown is just being a good swordsuser though, he's lacking in variety.
Raiton may be the best way to deal with him, but air, fire, pure chakra blasts, and so on can probably still hurt him.
I think between having two elemental releases, similar melee capabilities, and more speed, Asuma's still the stronger even with Suigetsu having better defense due to versatility. Though the way things are set up now, Asuma's a lowish A+ and Suigetsu a highish A.
--
The latest revision is under the idea that, "Wait, any A is absurdly badass and probably quite famous, even an A-. So plain-As may be noted for being exceptional ninja, get very important jobs, or have unique and fairly uber tricks or kekkei genaki."
A+ should be the best-of-the-best-of-the-village types.
Good point. Then you should probably put Naruto (One Tail) as B+, because there is barely any difference between Base Naruto (VotE) and Base Naruto. (Post Rasengan mastery)
Yea, I think that works.
Though come to think of it, I am thinking of putting VotE and One-tail Naruto at just B. They have power, but I would think an experienced and strong special jonin like Ibiki with more versatility and some pretty major jutsu would still be able to beat them the majority.
Technically speaking, Itachi did assassinate his father. Pain assassinated Hanzo as well.
I mean, historically, real-life ninjas I don't think have a single recorded successful assassination. Naruto ninja have lots 🙂
Originally posted by menokokorofire that was also shaped like a dragon 😐
....you obviously don't understand how heat works. just because a flame is big, does not mean that it is hotter than a smaller flame. so just saying a "big ass ball of fire" doesn't mean anything, the fact that sasuke's fire melted that rock when he was much weaker than he is now, means it is incredible fire.you realize that air needs to be moving REALLY fast to break through the stone roof that they did, the fact that theirs did shows there is more power behind it than just speed would give it.
for all we know the different types of nature release attacks are just what the user's chackra is manipulating the element to act/look like...matterfact...that's what it does.....
i mean, what's the difference between a normal katon blast and those dragon things? it;s just the chackra, and chackra can do anything in the manga. it's the x element.
Spoiler:
i was feeling kinda lazy after work, but i'll just say that madara has the rinnigan in his left eye socket now if you didn't already know
Originally posted by Q99
Also on fireballs, observe this. Itachi's perfectly standard fireball shot by his reduced-chakra clone simply tears through the ground. Normal fire simply doesn't do that.
Uh, you just proved my point, again.
It's a massive super heated ball of air traveling at a really high speed, evaporating and blowing away the air and earth around it. Look at the "wind" lines around the fireball clearly indicating it's like a tornado ball.
😐
Originally posted by menokokoro
....you obviously don't understand how heat works. just because a flame is big, does not mean that it is hotter than a smaller flame.
Controlling for variables, that's EXACTLY what that means, bro. 😬
The bigger the flame, the hotter it will be, if all variables are the same between the two comparisons.
Of course, there's going to be ceiling limit...which is what I THINK you're really trying to get at, but that ceiling is REALLY far out there.
Edit - Let's make something clear: the fact that any of you are arguing that these elemental attacks are "chakra reinforced" indicates a fundemental lack of understanding on how elemental techniques work. By default, that are NOT chakra, but elements, but are created by chakra. There are CHAKRA based attacks such as the plain rasengan. THAT'S a chakra reinforced attack. All the rest are made of ELEMENTS. Not chakra, not chakra reiforcement. They are created by chakra, sure, but they are not chakra.
Originally posted by dadudemonEver take a welding class? I highly recommend it for you.
Controlling for variables, that's EXACTLY what that means, bro. 😬The bigger the flame, the hotter it will be, if all variables are the same between the two comparisons.
a large flame has "more" heat than a smaller flame, but the smaller flame might have "higher" heat than the larger one, believe it or not, there is a difference. oxy acetylene torches get up to...what was it 3000 degrees Fahrenheit? those flames are not that large, when compared to, oh say a house fire. by your logic, every fireman who goes into a house fire would have vaporized before ever getting to the door/window/open wall, because a flame much smaller than it is hot enough to melt steel in a matter of seconds (also, there are much hotter oxy acetylene torches that burn straight through the steel)
Originally posted by dadudemonsorry for the double post, but i just saw this.
Edit - Let's make something clear: the fact that any of you are arguing that these elemental attacks are "chakra reinforced" indicates a fundemental lack of understanding on how elemental techniques work. By default, that are NOT chakra, but elements, but are created by chakra. There are CHAKRA based attacks such as the plain rasengan. THAT'S a chakra reinforced attack. All the rest are made of ELEMENTS. Not chakra, not chakra reiforcement. They are created by chakra, sure, but they are not chakra.
sorry, but that is false, when you use a chakra blade, and put "wind chakra" into it, it cuts better, its not blowing a lot of air out its just using that specific type of chakra to cut more effectively.
Originally posted by menokokoro
Ever take a welding class? I highly recommend it for you.a large flame has "more" heat than a smaller flame, but the smaller flame might have "higher" heat than the larger one, believe it or not, there is a difference. oxy acetylene torches get up to...what was it 3000 degrees Fahrenheit? those flames are not that large, when compared to, oh say a house fire. by your logic, every fireman who goes into a house fire would have vaporized before ever getting to the door/window/open wall, because a flame much smaller than it is hot enough to melt steel in a matter of seconds (also, there are much hotter oxy acetylene torches that burn straight through the steel)
Originally posted by dadudemon
Controlling for variables, that's EXACTLY what that means, bro. 😬The bigger the flame, the hotter it will be, if all variables are the same between the two comparisons.
Of course, there's going to be ceiling limit...which is what I THINK you're really trying to get at, but that ceiling is REALLY far out there.
Fire doesn't work that way. You can have a huge, cool fireball, or a very hot, small fire. Alcohol fires, for example, can be huge but relatively cold, and making a bigger one doesn't make them much hotter.
That specific fire could not have caused those effects, it wasn't moving fast enough to cause kinetic damage like that, nor would heat from the fireball do similar. Since it's not speed and it's not heat, that pretty much just leaves chakra.
These jutsu are clearly making effects that their mundane counterparts do not, just as Yamato's trees are holding stuff no real wood could either.
Edit - Let's make something clear: the fact that any of you are arguing that these elemental attacks are "chakra reinforced" indicates a fundemental lack of understanding on how elemental techniques work. By default, that are NOT chakra, but elements, but are created by chakra. There are CHAKRA based attacks such as the plain rasengan. THAT'S a chakra reinforced attack. All the rest are made of ELEMENTS. Not chakra, not chakra reiforcement. They are created by chakra, sure, but they are not chakra.
And all the mention of 'fire chakra' and 'elemental chakra'? Kakashi said there's two types of alteration one can do with chakra, 'shape change' and 'nature change,' he said nothing about either of these making it no longer chakra or there being no chakra in the jutsu any more.
Note also that when Preta Pain absorbs, he can absorb fire jutsu even though he's only said to be able to absorb chakra, not physical attacks. If it was non-chakra after it was made, that wouldn't work.
I think you have your explanation of chakra, but that is not what any of the characters have said.
Yeah, he made that crater through...get this...a chakra explosion. A chakra explosion that would easily blow away that wood used to restrain him.
And the ripping through dozens of feet of stone with his hands that was linked as the example?
That's pure strength. He also punched the ground hard enough to cause a major shockwave.
I already told you why just "plain" ol' wood was able to restrain Naruto in 4-tails. It didn't restrain him, it delayed him by one or two seconds. Are you going to ignore all of the other times that the wood was easily blocked/destroyed by weak means?
Time enough to have a conversation with Kabuto and heal Sakura. Much more than one or two seconds.
Holds, straining (Hold- actual sound effect)
Stuck (ditto)
meanwhile
Even when breaking free, not all at once, takes some effort
So no, your explanation on why it's normal strength wood doesn't fly.
Originally posted by Q99
Fire doesn't work that way. You can have a huge, cool fireball, or a very hot, small fire. Alcohol fires, for example, can be huge but relatively cold, and making a bigger one doesn't make them much hotter.
Strawman. Keep this on topic. I assure you that the fireballs from the uchiha are not alcohol based fires.
Nothing you said contradicts me, either.
Originally posted by Q99
That specific fire could not have caused those effects, it wasn't moving fast enough to cause kinetic damage like that, nor would heat from the fireball do similar. Since it's not speed and it's not heat, that pretty much just leaves chakra.
Yeah, it could and it did.
Super fast, vortex of super heated air. That's pretty simple to me.
And, it was moving fast enough. Or are you going to argue that the "wind" lines of the fireball and the debris being blow off, exactly opposite of gravity, are somehow "slow"? Then, are you going to argue that you have a measure of how fast time was going relative to panel progression? If so, all of those points are illogical (wrong and baseless, respectively.)
Originally posted by Q99
These jutsu are clearly making effects that their mundane counterparts do not, just as Yamato's trees are holding stuff no real wood could either.
Oh really?
Please create a fireball that moves absurdly fast, is a vortex, explodes on impact, while also not extinguishing itself from it's velicity (meaning, it's very very hot.)
That's a fairly tall order and quite difficult for you to make that claim. If you created those conditions in a fireball, you'd see very similar results to what we see in a comic. Namely, solids would evaporate very rapidly when they came into contact with it and crap would blow up and away from the speed of the firebal (and the air around it).
Nah, what I said earlier is more correct. Illogical application of your arugments is not going to fly, either. You can't make non sequitor comparisons between fire and wood. Even within the "magic" of the internal universe, it's a non sequitor fallacy as wood "element" is a kekei ghenki and fire jutsu (in that form) is not.
Originally posted by Q99
And all the mention of 'fire chakra' and 'elemental chakra'? Kakashi said there's two types of alteration one can do with chakra, 'shape change' and 'nature change,' he said nothing about either of these making it no longer chakra or there being no chakra in the jutsu any more.Note also that when Preta Pain absorbs, he can absorb fire jutsu even though he's only said to be able to absorb chakra, not physical attacks. If it was non-chakra after it was made, that wouldn't work.
I think you have your explanation of chakra, but that is not what any of the characters have said..
Right, "nature" change. That should have been the end of your reasoning right then and there. Again, nature....change.
You are literally changing chakra into elements! That's so very basic and fundemental to Naruto. AKA: converting energy into matter or another form of energy.
As for Preta path, you've nicely misrepresented his ability. He can absorb any ninjutsu.
By your logic, he could absorb wood. Could he, in your opinion, absorb wood?
Well, as fact, we have no reason to believe that he couldn't as it states specifically that ninjutsu is absorbed:
http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-378-page-6.html (that link probably won't work...but just navigate to chapter 378)
Originally posted by Q99
And the ripping through dozens of feet of stone with his hands that was linked as the example?
And this somehow counters my point of me telling you that you only proved my point in the following?:
"It didn't restrain him, it delayed him by one or two seconds."
4-tails Naruto ripped through it like it was butter. He did it so fast that we didn't even get to see him do it on panel. As soon as it made contact, it was already being torn apart, as seen, clearly, in the same scan you posted.
Originally posted by Q99
That's pure strength. He also punched the ground hard enough to cause a major shockwave.
I agree that it's awesome/massive. But none of this helps your point. It only worsened it and proved that you actually agreed with me.
Originally posted by Q99
Time enough to have a conversation with Kabuto and heal Sakura. Much more than one or two seconds.
Holds, straining (Hold- actual sound effect)
Stuck (ditto)
meanwhile
Even when breaking free, not all at once, takes some effort
So no, your explanation on why it's normal strength wood doesn't fly. [/B][/QUOTE]
Nah, yours doesn't fly at all and I've proven that. You didn't notice that as soon as the wood is on Naruto, just one scan back, it's already snapped in several places?
No, you wouldn't mention that as it hurts your agument.
http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-296-page-10.html
Besides, he doesn't actually make a good effort to struggle to get free (by struggle, I mean apply effort, he seems more confused in his beastial as to what happened than he is at struggling to get out as it even gives an "uh" type of response to the wood...so, not even trying, he breaks big pieces...so it's what I said, a delay tactic.)
As soon as he tries, it's nothing to him, as seen here:
http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-296-page-14.html
The first effort made to get out and it becomes like styrofoam to him.
Again, I was right, you proved me right, but say the opposite of it as you prove me right.
If you want to argue about it being 5 seconds rather than 1 or 2 seconds, just to be right, that's fine. That doesn't bother me.
Let's look at it from your perspective, for a bit.
Even IF the wood is reinforced by chakra to make it stronger, you still have to prove it. You have to have an in universe expert say that that is the case as there is no way to prove what you've stated. I could just as easily claim (if I were to take your opinion that the wood is stronger than wood...which is a strange argument in and of itself, to me) that the wood is magically stronger than regular wood because it was made much more dense by the user. That makes more sense when you consider that there's not "art" showing that there's chakra reinforcing the wood. On top of that, don't you think that someone like a byakugan would notice that there's chakra in there? On top of that, wouldn't the chakra dispate and make the tech useless after a while? On top of that, explain the other kekai ghenki's obviously being regular elements (water, fire (that's is super accelerated and spun to give it more devastation), lava, water, etc.) Some water is thrown so fast that they become like needles/blades, but they are not solids...it's just their velicity. Yet, fire cannot be heated and propelled so quickly as to destroy direct around it?
I've concluded that no matter what, wood is wood, fire is fire, water is water, lava is lave, acid is acid, and so forth. I know it seems like I'm being dim, but why should I conclude anything more than that without confirmation from anything else?
Strawman. Keep this on topic. I assure you that the fireballs from the uchiha are not alcohol based fires.
No, but they are red/orange flames, and color of flame indicates temperature. Nor do they melt the rock, they merely break it. That's what indicates how hot it is, not it's size.
Super fast, vortex of super heated air. That's pretty simple to me.
That wouldn't shatter stone, not even, say, 500+ mph winds would cause the effects shown. Also, this isn't some rasengan like tight spiral of compressed air or fire that exploded outwards, it was a ball that travels forward at a rate that could be dodged.
Nah, yours doesn't fly at all and I've proven that. You didn't notice that as soon as the wood is on Naruto, just one scan back, it's already snapped in several places?No, you wouldn't mention that as it hurts your agument.
That was one of the scans I linked to, and the rough ends are just where the wood ended- see page 12, there's no wood bits laying around, none of 'em have snapped yet, not until page 15.
The fact that it holds for several pages after that and the sound effects indicate there's stuggling, and even when it starts to give it doesn't give all at once, even though this is a being that can tear through dozens of feet of stone without effort.
You have not proven your point, you've provided your opinion that it's otherwise.
Besides, he doesn't actually make a good effort to struggle to get free (by struggle, I mean apply effort, he seems more confused in his beastial as to what happened than he is at struggling to get out as it even gives an "uh" type of response to the wood...so, not even trying, he breaks big pieces...so it's what I said, a delay tactic.)
It actually has the sound effect 'struggle,' so, no.
Again, I was right, you proved me right, but say the opposite of it as you prove me right.
Saying "I proved it, I proved it," is not proving it. The scans clearly show the wood holding the struggling Kyuubi in place and you're blatantly misrepresenting.
Read through the scene in a neutral light, don't just look at stuff and
If you want to argue about it being 5 seconds rather than 1 or 2 seconds, just to be right, that's fine. That doesn't bother me.
More like 30 to a minute, time enough for a conversation and other jutsu to be used, and for Kabuto to casually walk fifty feet or so all the way from Yamato to Sakura scan.
Heck, the anime has him held for three and a half minutes (starts at 12:00) and shows what's going on.
Also consider the strength 4 tails has shown, shown without effort or straining no less, would punch through real wood like it's not even there. He rips through earth like it's not there, why would it hold when far greater thicknesses of greater Earth fails?
Even IF the wood is reinforced by chakra to make it stronger, you still have to prove it.
I do believe showing it perform feats of durability far in excess of normal wood (or fire, or what have you) does just that.
You have to have an in universe expert say that that is the case as there is no way to prove what you've stated.
Kakashi's explanation of chakra did say that elemental chakra is just an altered form of chakra.
Also, that they do stuff far in excess of their normal equivalents is evidence too.
I could just as easily claim (if I were to take your opinion that the wood is stronger than wood...which is a strange argument in and of itself, to me) that the wood is magically stronger than regular wood because it was made much more dense by the user.
Fine, if you want to go that route.
You were arguing originally it was as weak as dry wood. I think it's clear that whatever the method, it is super strong.
Hm... there is the matter of Preta Path absorbing fire jutsu though. That *only* works if it's made of chakra.
That makes more sense when you consider that there's not "art" showing that there's chakra reinforcing the wood. On top of that, don't you think that someone like a byakugan would notice that there's chakra in there?
What makes you think they don't? We have no indication they've ever not seen chakra in an elemental jutsu.
On top of that, wouldn't the chakra dispate and make the tech useless after a while?
How is that a problem? If it lasts through a battle, it doesn't matter much if the wood or earth eventually drops to conventional strength.
On top of that, explain the other kekai ghenki's obviously being regular elements (water, fire (that's is super accelerated and spun to give it more devastation), lava, water, etc.) Some water is thrown so fast that they become like needles/blades, but they are not solids...it's just their velicity.
The water prison is definitely water acting far denser than normal water, and heck, a water clone is it acting as a solid.
A water needle also is almost certainly acting more solid-like than normal. The velocity we saw them travel at would merely mean they'd sting a little if you were hit by them, yet a water ninja jutsu is almost certainly a threat that'll draw blood like a needle.
Consider Asuma's chakra blades. That's specifically air chakra, and air can't do that, it'd lose cohesion as soon as it hit something, let alone multiple somethings.
Yet, fire cannot be heated and propelled so quickly as to destroy direct around it?
Except we know it's speed and that it wasn't hot enough to melt the rock. So we know that's not what's going on.
I've concluded that no matter what, wood is wood, fire is fire, water is water, lava is lave, acid is acid, and so forth. I know it seems like I'm being dim, but why should I conclude anything more than that without confirmation from anything else?
Because we have seen them in action and what they do, the jutsu effects are not normal.
Originally posted by Q99
No, but they are red/orange flames, and color of flame indicates temperature. Nor do they melt the rock, they merely break it. That's what indicates how hot it is, not it's size.That wouldn't shatter stone, not even, say, 500+ mph winds would cause the effects shown. Also, this isn't some rasengan like tight spiral of compressed air or fire that exploded outwards, it was a ball that travels forward at a rate that could be dodged.
That was one of the scans I linked to, and the rough ends are just where the wood ended- see page 12, there's no wood bits laying around, none of 'em have snapped yet, not until page 15.
The fact that it holds for several pages after that and the sound effects indicate there's stuggling, and even when it starts to give it doesn't give all at once, even though this is a being that can tear through dozens of feet of stone without effort.
You have not proven your point, you've provided your opinion that it's otherwise.
It actually has the sound effect 'struggle,' so, no.
Saying "I proved it, I proved it," is not proving it. The scans clearly show the wood holding the struggling Kyuubi in place and you're blatantly misrepresenting.
Read through the scene in a neutral light, don't just look at stuff and
More like 30 to a minute, time enough for a conversation and other jutsu to be used, and for Kabuto to casually walk fifty feet or so all the way from Yamato to Sakura scan.
Heck, the anime has him held for three and a half minutes (starts at 12:00) and shows what's going on.
Also consider the strength 4 tails has shown, shown without effort or straining no less, would punch through real wood like it's not even there. He rips through earth like it's not there, why would it hold when far greater thicknesses of greater Earth fails?
I do believe showing it perform feats of durability far in excess of normal wood (or fire, or what have you) does just that.
Kakashi's explanation of chakra did say that elemental chakra is just an altered form of chakra.
Also, that they do stuff far in excess of their normal equivalents is evidence too.
Fine, if you want to go that route.
You were arguing originally it was as weak as dry wood. I think it's clear that whatever the method, it is super strong.
Hm... there is the matter of Preta Path absorbing fire jutsu though. That *only* works if it's made of chakra.
What makes you think they don't? We have no indication they've ever not seen chakra in an elemental jutsu.
How is that a problem? If it lasts through a battle, it doesn't matter much if the wood or earth eventually drops to conventional strength.
The water prison is definitely water acting far denser than normal water, and heck, a water clone is it acting as a solid.
A water needle also is almost certainly acting more solid-like than normal. The velocity we saw them travel at would merely mean they'd sting a little if you were hit by them, yet a water ninja jutsu is almost certainly a threat that'll draw blood like a needle.
Consider Asuma's chakra blades. That's specifically air chakra, and air can't do that, it'd lose cohesion as soon as it hit something, let alone multiple somethings.
Except we know it's speed and that it wasn't hot enough to melt the rock. So we know that's not what's going on.
Because we have seen them in action and what they do, the jutsu effects are not normal.
Holy crap, you responded too fast.
I ain't readin' all that.
I'm definitely right. Read my conclusion. It clearly shows that you're either being illogical or making baseless assumptions. You can't be right based on logic. You can't be right because it's wrong. It's one or the other. There is no middle ground.
Originally posted by dadudemonYou are the undisputed master of cop-outs.
Holy crap, you responded too fast.I ain't readin' all that.
I'm definitely right. Read my conclusion. It clearly shows that you're either being illogical or making baseless assumptions. You can't be right based on logic. You can't be right because it's wrong. It's one or the other. There is no middle ground.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Holy crap, you responded too fast.I ain't readin' all that.
I'm definitely right. Read my conclusion. It clearly shows that you're either being illogical or making baseless assumptions. You can't be right based on logic. You can't be right because it's wrong. It's one or the other. There is no middle ground.
Or, you could be mistaken. Please just read-through it without simply assuming you're right, I do believe you have mis-read several scenes significantly.
And here's the response to your edit (already written):
Even IF the wood is reinforced by chakra to make it stronger, you still have to prove it.
I do believe showing it perform feats of durability far in excess of normal wood (or fire, or what have you) does just that.
You have to have an in universe expert say that that is the case as there is no way to prove what you've stated.
Kakashi's explanation of chakra did say that elemental chakra is just an altered form of chakra.
Also, that they do stuff far in excess of their normal equivalents is evidence too.
I could just as easily claim (if I were to take your opinion that the wood is stronger than wood...which is a strange argument in and of itself, to me) that the wood is magically stronger than regular wood because it was made much more dense by the user.
Fine, if you want to go that route.
You were arguing originally it was as weak as dry wood. I think it's clear that whatever the method, it is super strong.
Hm... there is the matter of Preta Path absorbing fire jutsu used against him though. That *only* works if it's made of chakra.
That makes more sense when you consider that there's not "art" showing that there's chakra reinforcing the wood. On top of that, don't you think that someone like a byakugan would notice that there's chakra in there?
What makes you think they don't? We have no indication they've ever not seen chakra in an elemental jutsu.
On top of that, wouldn't the chakra dispate and make the tech useless after a while?
How is that a problem in a fight? If it lasts through a battle, it doesn't matter much if the wood or earth eventually drops to conventional strength.
Chakra runs out, but it's extra strong until it does.
On top of that, explain the other kekai ghenki's obviously being regular elements (water, fire (that's is super accelerated and spun to give it more devastation), lava, water, etc.) Some water is thrown so fast that they become like needles/blades, but they are not solids...it's just their velicity.
The water prison is definitely water acting far denser than normal water, and heck, a water clone is it acting as a solid.
A water needle also is almost certainly acting more solid-like than normal. The velocity we saw them travel at would merely mean they'd sting a little if you were hit by them with a small splash (even if they were a few hundred mph), yet a water ninja jutsu is almost certainly a threat that'll draw blood like a needle.
Consider Asuma's chakra blades. That's specifically air chakra, and air can't do that, it'd lose cohesion as soon as it hit something, let alone multiple somethings.
Yet, fire cannot be heated and propelled so quickly as to destroy direct around it?
Except we know it's speed and that it wasn't hot enough to melt the rock. So we know that's not what's going on.
I've concluded that no matter what, wood is wood, fire is fire, water is water, lava is lave, acid is acid, and so forth. I know it seems like I'm being dim, but why should I conclude anything more than that without confirmation from anything else?
Because we have seen them in action and what they do, the jutsu effects are not normal, and the explanations of chakra elemental nature that we've seen from Kakashi and Asuma strongly support that the elemental stuff is something that's done to chakra and doesn't make it non-chakra.
Take a step back and look at things without the assumption that they're non-chakra. Consider them to be chakra for a moment and notice the oddities in how they work.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Holy crap, you responded too fast.I ain't readin' all that.
I'm definitely right. Read my conclusion. It clearly shows that you're either being illogical or making baseless assumptions. You can't be right based on logic. You can't be right because it's wrong. It's one or the other. There is no middle ground.
This is not a logical way to try and conclude a debate dude... Your basically trying to stonewall and delay response to a pretty convincing argument on Q99's part based on.... What "I'm right and your not, therefore I win"?
Originally posted by dadudemon
Edit - Let's make something clear: the fact that any of you are arguing that these elemental attacks are "chakra reinforced" indicates a fundemental lack of understanding on how elemental techniques work. By default, that are NOT chakra, but elements, but are created by chakra. There are CHAKRA based attacks such as the plain rasengan. THAT'S a chakra reinforced attack. All the rest are made of ELEMENTS. Not chakra, not chakra reiforcement. They are created by chakra, sure, but they are not chakra.
The rest are made of Elemental Chakra, not the pure Elements themselves.
Samehada has absorbed the Lightning Chakra from Bee's sword as well. That would never have happened had it been pure electricity, and not chakra-based electricity.
http://haven-reader.net/index.php?mode=view&series=Naruto&chapter=Chapter+470+-+KillerBee+vs+Kisame&page=16&next=true
And one final point: http://manga.bleachexile.com/naruto-chapter-508-page-2.html
Also, no, the Preta Path absorbs Chakra. It just so happens that it can absorb any type of chakra, regardless of nature or shape transformation, which is why it can absorb any ninjutsu. It even absorbed Naruto's Sage Chakra, or does Sage Chakra within a person's body fall under ninjutsu for you?
The Third Databook itself states that he absorbs Chakra, not Ninjutsu.
Originally posted by Bentley
That was kind of lame 😬
Please tell me you were referring to DDM's most recent post, and not to DarkStorm's observation.