The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by Q99
Lesser ones should still inflict pain though. They might not be able to one-shot him but I doubt he'd like being hit by something like Jugo's chakra blasts or a rasengan in the least.

Oh yea, and Genjutsu should work on him too.

It's strong defense, but I would think most jonin'll have something that'll work.

Well, he wouldn't like it, but it wouldn't put him down anyway, and it would hurt him far less than it would hurt most other ninja.

Unless most jonin have Raiton techs or good genjutsu, their only hope is to outlast him somehow. Asuma for one has nothing against Suigetsu.
Or else, something like the Baku could suck him in, but I doubt there's another summon or jutsu that has such a powerful vacuum like effect.

Originally posted by Q99
What trumps water again...? Earth? Hm, probably not just a 'hit with rock' jutsu, that'd seem useless, but maybe some sort of imprisonment earth jutsu...

While splattering him doesn't put him down, it does reduce his capacity somewhat, he needs to be in mostly human form to use his sword which is most of his offense.

The main reason I rate him a bit lower-ish (though again, A is very very high 🙂 ) is his special jutsu is all defense, while his offense is limited to just his sword and physical attacks that we've seen.

Wouldn't he just reform if splattered? His arms got splattered thanks to the Raikage's strike, but they just reformed.
With enough water, he can just use brute force instead of his sword, brute force that can push back a charging Tailed Beast.

Originally posted by Q99
Remember when he offed like 8-9 sound chunin before they could move?

Mook Chuunin that were hardly impressive. Any decent Jounin could have pulled that off IMO.
Though could you tell me the chapter number?

Originally posted by Q99
Though I don't think he can maintain clones while foxed out since it disrupts concentration.

His stats go up but he ceases using tricks or tactics so much as just relying on that raw ability.

In Part 2, he enters the Two Tailed Mode, and his clones start to feel pain, but I don't recall if they disappear. I don't think they would feel pain if he entered the One Tailed Mode.

True, but against most others in B+, raw ability would help him just fine.

Originally posted by Kento
Aoba is so awesome that Kabuto is surprised he's with Konoha team, and had to run away when Aoba tried anything.

Aoba wears sun-glasses. Did you expect anything different?

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
The Stone ninja chick with the fishnets is pretty hot.

She's Anko's lesser sister in that regard.

I had a hard time following WTF happened in this chapter.

Was that a wood clone of Yamato's or something? I hope that's the one they stole. If it was, that'd be awesome.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Aoba wears sun-glasses. Did you expect anything different?
.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
This is not a logical way to try and conclude a debate dude... Your basically trying to stonewall and delay response to a pretty convincing argument on Q99's part based on.... What "I'm right and your not, therefore I win"?

Hell no. I didn't even read his post. He's already made his points and so have I. I've gotten to the point to where I grow tired of arguing the same points over and over. I don't like circle discussions. He's had more than enough time to say his piece and so have I. Why continue the discussion? Enough evidence has been produced from both sides. His points are still baseless, at best. There's no way around that. That's logic 101.

lol

Originally posted by dadudemon
Hell no. I didn't even read his post. He's already made his points and so have I. I've gotten to the point to where I grow tired of arguing the same points over and over. I don't like circle discussions. He's had more than enough time to say his piece and so have I. Why continue the discussion? Enough evidence has been produced from both sides. His points are still baseless, at best. There's no way around that. That's logic 101.

No, I made a lot more points with examples.

"I must be right, therefore the other person is wrong!" is not logic 101, it's just not arguing.

I like how Kurotsuchi just floats there even when she doesn't have to 🙂

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
The Stone ninja chick with the fishnets is pretty hot.

That aside, Naruto's pretty ****ing lame right now. It's pretty close to the same level as Bleach for me.

Personally I don't see that. It's not a bunch of fights that take dozens of chapters and accomplish nothing, one after another. Stuff's happening.

We're getting cool powers and stuff that's advancing the plot.

danteiscool
Madara knows that he can't competent help at all. the only people in Akatsuki that actually did something for him were Kisame and Pain (Kisame captured the 4 tails and got some info to him while Pain killed Jiraiya and weakened Konoha) and that's about it. the rest he mainly had to do himself.

Deidara and Sasori got Gaara, Hidan and Kakuzu got 2-tails and killed two Leaf jonin (Asuma and his monk friend).

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Well, he wouldn't like it, but it wouldn't put him down anyway, and it would hurt him far less than it would hurt most other ninja.

Unless most jonin have Raiton techs or good genjutsu, their only hope is to outlast him somehow.

Considering his melee-oriented offense I think that's possible.

Wouldn't he just reform if splattered? His arms got splattered thanks to the Raikage's strike, but they just reformed.

Yea, but I'm pretty sure it still hurts. Splattering is all what Killerbee's chakra blast did after all.

Mook Chuunin that were hardly impressive. Any decent Jounin could have pulled that off IMO.
Though could you tell me the chapter number?

119. Starts here

True, but against most others in B+, raw ability would help him just fine.

Hm, how well do you think 1-tailed naruto there would do against post timeskip no-tailed Naruto?

Originally posted by Q99
Or, you could be mistaken. Please just read-through it without simply assuming you're right, I do believe you have mis-read several scenes significantly.

It's not whether or not I'm right, it's the degree of how wrong you are. My opinions actually have no bearing you being right or wrong. I just was pointing out the obvious.

Originally posted by Q99
And here's the response to your edit (already written):

Takes the bait:

Originally posted by Q99
I do believe showing it perform feats of durability far in excess of normal wood (or fire, or what have you) does just that.

Both points have been covered and countered. Do you see why I didn't bother reading you post? It's a waste of both our times. Should I repost the same response? (NO! I shouldn't. You can easily go back and read.)

Originally posted by Q99
Kakashi's explanation of chakra did say that elemental chakra is just an altered form of chakra.

So the water produced is not water, huh? The fire produced is not fire, huh? The wood produced is not wood, huh? The magma produced is not magma, huh? The ice produced is not ice, huh? The acid produced is not acid, huh? The "earth" taken from the earth is not earth, huh?

Do you see why I chose not to respond?

What you said was more fitting to your position: "I do believe you have mis-read several scenes significantly."

It's possible that you're misinterpretting what Kakashi said, taking it out of context, or Kishi has obviously written an error in his own universe.

Originally posted by Q99
Also, that they do stuff far in excess of their normal equivalents is evidence too.

Incorrect. They are not in "excess" of anything. You have a flawed interpretation of what they really are. You have yet to acknowledge that the great fireball jutsu from the Uchiha's is far more than just a big *ss fireball. If it were that simple, we wouldn't have all that wind from it.

Originally posted by Q99
Fine, if you want to go that route.

You were arguing originally it was as weak as dry wood. I think it's clear that whatever the method, it is super strong.

And dry wood comes in many different densities and strengths. Is it possible that "dry wood" refers to the way it splinters when busted up rather than saying it's close to really old wood that practically turns to powder? I refer you to the portions in my post that indicate that, yes, I was referring to the way it splinters. Portions that give that away: my discussion of how wet wood would change it's nature.

Do you see, now, why I think we are talking in circles?

Originally posted by Q99
Hm... there is the matter of Preta Path absorbing fire jutsu used against him though. That *only* works if it's made of chakra.

It can absorb any ninjutsu. The databook contradicts what is in the manga as it is not absorbing chakra. It absorbed oil and fire, not chakra. This is why jiraiya stated that it absorbs ninjutsu instead of chakra because that would be inaccurate. You still haven't brought up any new points, so far. I'm beginning to think that taking the time to respond was a waste of time and I was correct in not responding.

Originally posted by Q99
What makes you think they don't? We have no indication they've ever not seen chakra in an elemental jutsu.

More baseless assumptions. You can't make claims with nothing to back it up. We have plenty of indications that they have not seen chakra in elemental jutsu because any time it happens, no one says anything about it or even indicates that it is chakra reinforced. Why is that not evidence enough for you? You instead venture into baseless speculation and tout it as fact. That's illogical.

Again, this point (about baseless speculation) was already covered in previus posts.

Originally posted by Q99
How is that a problem in a fight? If it lasts through a battle, it doesn't matter much if the wood or earth eventually drops to conventional strength.

Chakra runs out, but it's extra strong until it does.

Baseless assumption. There has never been any indication that what you said above is correct. You cannot make things up as you go and use them as counters to points I've made.

Originally posted by Q99
The water prison is definitely water acting far denser than normal water, and heck, a water clone is it acting as a solid.

Ugh. I'll address this in my next point to your post.

But, more to the point, why does the clone have "intelligence"? It is literally, "magic" to our own universe. Can your explanation of "chakra reinforcement" justify the intelligence of the clone? The user is certainly not controlling the clone through a telepathic interface.

Originally posted by Q99
A water needle also is almost certainly acting more solid-like than normal. The velocity we saw them travel at would merely mean they'd sting a little if you were hit by them with a small splash (even if they were a few hundred mph), yet a water ninja jutsu is almost certainly a threat that'll draw blood like a needle.

So, you mean to tell me you are not aware of water being used to cut stones and other hard substances?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_jet_cutter

Originally posted by Q99
Consider Asuma's chakra blades. That's specifically air chakra, and air can't do that, it'd lose cohesion as soon as it hit something, let alone multiple somethings.

This is great and all, but it doesn't bridge the gap between intelligent clones and chakra blades.

However, this is not to say that I don't believe some things are not chakra reinforced. Specifically, the list of elements I listed. Chakra and air combination on a chakra sensitive substance is certainly chakra reinforcement. This is not what I've ever argued against, however.

So I'm going to have to throw this point out of yours as a strawman. Do you agree that it was a strawman? I'll certainly argue this point further, with you, if you don't agree, as this is a "new" point that I haven't really addressed.

Originally posted by Q99
Except we know it's speed and that it wasn't hot enough to melt the rock. So we know that's not what's going on.

So a super heated ball of gas, spun at a high velicity, having multiple "spin" vectors...aka, extremely violent and hot, is not going to bust through rock?

Certainly if we could create such a magic fireball, it'd act just the same. You're using baseless explanations for an event that is obvious. It's either got some sort of "magical" third ability or it's acting just as it's intended to: a super heated gas drill. Looks like a gas drill to me..especially with how violent the winds are around it.

Let's go with that instead of your baseless "third" kind. It's just more logical to do so.

Wow, we've already covered this point 3 times a piece, now.

Please, I beg you, don't bring it up again.

You continue believing that it is an intelligent magical ball and I'll continue believing it is a violent fireball. Both our explanations work, of course, but mine isn't baseless.

Originally posted by Q99
Because we have seen them in action and what they do, the jutsu effects are not normal, and the explanations of chakra elemental nature that we've seen from Kakashi and Asuma strongly support that the elemental stuff is something that's done to chakra and doesn't make it non-chakra.

The elements? Yes, they are not chakra. The chakra? Yes, it is chakra. Asuma's explanation is now done. We don't have to bring him up any more.

Kakashi's explanation? It sort of works. The best explanation seen in the manga is an indirect one: any elements created from ninjutsu techs can be absorbed by a chakra absorber like Preta path. But that means Shino's bugs would too, right?

Wrong. They are burned up by fire. Care to offer a different explanation?

Is it possible that Preta path can absorb ninjutsu techs and not just chakra? Makes much more sense. Should make more sense since this stuff acts like "magic" many times.

Originally posted by Q99
Take a step back and look at things without the assumption that they're non-chakra. Consider them to be chakra for a moment and notice the oddities in how they work.

I already have. Most are just plain ol' elements. Some are chakra mixed with elements. Some are pure chakra. Some are elements reinforced with chakra.

Wood is the original argument. Your strawman arguments have brought us to cover many more and illogical apply other elements to the same razor.

Let's focus just on wood. Wood is not chakra reinforced. It's wood. The density can probably be adjusted on the user's whim. We can't go beyond those conclusions, however.

Originally posted by Q99
No, I made a lot more points with examples.

"I must be right, therefore the other person is wrong!" is not logic 101, it's just not arguing.

I counted 1 or 2 actually "new" points. Most of it was just talking in circles, yet again. On both our parts. I made a good decisions in not replying to your post. I made a poor when in actually responding. It is largely a waste of both our times. I made this point, for the third or forth time, now, as well.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Is it possible that Preta path can absorb ninjutsu techs and not just chakra? Makes much more sense. Should make more sense since this stuff acts like "magic" many times.

Originally posted by King Kandy
But you're claiming that the fire/wood/oil etc is exactly the same as the actual substances they represent. If there is no chakra, that is, that the fire is the exact same as regular fire of that size heat etc, then no matter if it's origin is ninjutsu or not it's composition is identical. Obviously, it could only have a different effect on Pain if it was itself different.

I agree with the point you're making and I did hint at this very point in that post you quoted.

The idea is "chakra reiforcement to make wood stronger" not simply the lack of chakra. I argue that there the wood is not reinforced by chakra because there's no evidence, not that elemental jutsu's act like magic.

The wood acts like magic. But is it reinforced with chakra to make it stronger? (like a chakra matrix or something like that.) I'm claiming that that doesn't exist and he claims it exists...not that elemental jutsu's do not contain any chakra or magical properties. (I did argue that the great fireball jutsu gets it's power from it's physical properties, though.)

We know elements exist and continue to exist long after they are created from ninjutsu...so obviously, they are what they are (that's obvious). But is the fireball turned into something more than what the physical properties indicate it is by the mear presence of chakra? (Nothing indicates that...the fireball is just violent and that explains it all.) Does the wood become stronger through some sort of reinforcing chakra matrix? Nothing indicates that or even indicates that that is necessary. Why can't the element stand on its own as being awesome? Why does it's value have to be degraded? I'd argue that only highly skilled medical nin could create elemental jutsus without any chakra in them due to their high chakra control. Someone like Naruto should have malformed jutsus and have "leaked" chakra all over his jutsus. lol sounds so perverted.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I agree with the point you're making and I did hint at this very point in that post you quoted.

The idea is "chakra reiforcement to make wood stronger" not simply the lack of chakra. I argue that there the wood is not reinforced by chakra because there's no evidence, not that elemental jutsu's act like magic.

Originally posted by King Kandy
But you've stated, several times, that "nature transformation" means that the chakra is no longer chakra in any way, but instead is completely the new element. Preta would seem to show that there is something different between elements naturally occurring, and those produced by ninjutsu. What can the difference be except chakra?

Seems that an easier explanation is "magic" than claiming elements are not elements, despite being elements. (I hope that makes sense.)

There is a metaphysical property of elements created from chakra that persists and allows preta to quickly disassemble the elements back into chakra.

This could explain why shino's bugs get vaped/burned by chakra created fires, but Preta can absorb chakra created fires: Preta has a "gift" that messes with this 'metaphysical' property.

But that's pratically baseless and I hate trying to pass that off as fact. Still, it works more uniformly than Q99's idea of chakra reinforcement. It explains why the elements are used for burning thing, washing things, building things, etc. They are actually elements, but have a metaphysical property that allows "ninjutsu absorbers" like preta to reverse the magic.

*Edit* Read my post after this first. If you're satisfied with that brief explanation, stop. If you're not, then come back to this one.

Do you see, now, why I think we are talking in circles?

Well, I for one am bringing up new examples, so I think there's room to debate.

At least if you're willing to listen and entertaining my points and not just shut them out.

It's not whether or not I'm right, it's the degree of how wrong you are. My opinions actually have no bearing you being right or wrong.

Yes, the series does, and I'm trying to draw my opinion as directly from the series as possible.

It can absorb any ninjutsu. The databook contradicts what is in the manga as it is not absorbing chakra. It absorbed oil and fire, not chakra.

If the fire and oil are made of chakra, there is nothing contradictory about this.

So the water produced is not water, huh? The fire produced is not fire, huh? The wood produced is not wood, huh? The magma produced is not magma, huh? The ice produced is not ice, huh? The acid produced is not acid, huh? The "earth" taken from the earth is not earth, huh?

I'm saying it's chakra-earth, chakra wood, etc.. It is that element, made of chakra.

You're claiming that it retains no extra aspects from chakra and is purely physical, I'm claiming it is both things.

Incorrect. They are not in "excess" of anything. You have a flawed interpretation of what they really are.

The physical properties they have are often stuff that no known material could do or are very unusual.

And dry wood comes in many different densities and strengths.

No wood is that resistant to damage. It's impossible for wood, regardless of density, to be tougher than 20 feet of rock.

That is an unusual property, and it needs an explanation.

We have plenty of indications that they have not seen chakra in elemental jutsu because any time it happens, no one says anything about it or even indicates that it is chakra reinforced. Why is that not evidence enough for you?

You're taking a lack of specific mentioning it every time as evidence against it. That's not evidence against it, that's simply not mentioning it.

They never say that jutsu lack chakra, not even once, while we do have several cases where they do mention jutsu with chakra, plus jutsu show unusual aspects best explained by chakra.

Why would they comment on it if it's the norm?

We have a few comments on the 'element jutsu are made of element chakra' side, and no one has ever mentioned otherwise.

However, this is not to say that I don't believe some things are not chakra reinforced. Specifically, the list of elements I listed. Chakra and air combination on a chakra sensitive substance is certainly chakra reinforcement. This is not what I've ever argued against, however.

Ah, but it's an important example none the less.

We have a case where definitely, 100% it is chakra and element, and that specifically mentioned as why it as special cutting properties.

So it establishes the elemental chakra as why it has special properties.

So a super heated ball of gas, spun at a high velicity, having multiple "spin" vectors...aka, extremely violent and hot, is not going to bust through rock?

Not like that, not when it's (1) cool enough to not melt the rock, (2) slow enough it's forward momentum and (2) the damage seems to be from direct impact, the rock isn't being flung around like a spin would, it's much more strait forward damage.

Certainly if we could create such a magic fireball, it'd act just the same. You're using baseless explanations for an event that is obvious. It's either got some sort of "magical" third ability or it's acting just as it's intended to: a super heated gas drill. Looks like a gas drill to me..especially with how violent the winds are around it.

What's causing it to do this, though? What's causing it to have all these extra properties? Why is it rolling forward instead of exploding outwards and upwards like fire would?

Also, we've seen this jutsu on many occasions. It's the simple Great Fireball technique. It doesn't involve shaped alteration. We've seen them dissolve, there's no spinny rasengan-esque spiral or anything, they just disperse like fire does.

Something is causing it to act in a very unusual manner. What would you call this aspect of why they're acting in such a way?

Certainly if we could create such a magic fireball, it'd act just the same. You're using baseless explanations for an event that is obvious. It's either got some sort of "magical" third ability or it's acting just as it's intended to: a super heated gas drill. Looks like a gas drill to me..especially with how violent the winds are around it.

It's not baseless, we know it's made using chakra (jutsu, duh), we know elements can be chakra, and we've also seen elemental jutsu like it be absorbed by a chakra absorber.

Something is demonstrating magic properties and has an origin with something that is known to give magic properties. Occam's razor suggests there'd be a connection.

But, more to the point, why does the clone have "intelligence"? It is literally, "magic" to our own universe. Can your explanation of "chakra reinforcement" justify the intelligence of the clone? The user is certainly not controlling the clone through a telepathic interface.

Because it is mimicing the original's brain.

Here's a question- You're pointing out it has 'magic' properties. Chakra is the only thing that gives 'magic properties' in Naruto that we've seen.

Why are you concluding stuff with magic and other unusual properties has non-chakra reasons?

So, you mean to tell me you are not aware of water being used to cut stones and other hard substances?

I am, but the speed needed to do so is much higher than the water jutsu movement shows, and a lot more water is involved than the ounce or so in the water needles.

Even at water cutter speeds, the water needles would be an annoyance, not a threat.

Also, this wouldn't apply to the water prison, which is stationary but very tough water. "Tough water," think about that. It's not swirling or anything, it's just a sphere of water that holds someone in place and they can't swim out of.

The only available explanation seems to be chakra.

Kakashi's explanation? It sort of works. The best explanation seen in the manga is an indirect one: any elements created from ninjutsu techs can be absorbed by a chakra absorber like Preta path. But that means Shino's bugs would too, right?

No, because they're actual bugs, they breed and physically exist like normal bugs, they aren't created with chakra they just have chakra powers themselves.

And why would chakra absorption work on a physical non-chakra element simply because it's made with chakra? It's not like chakraless rock or fire or wind would have a 'memory' of how it's created.

That's contradictory.

Is it possible that Preta path can absorb ninjutsu techs and not just chakra? Makes much more sense. Should make more sense since this stuff acts like "magic" many times.

It's not how his power is said to work, no, nor do I see how an element made with ninjutsu would be any different than any other element for absorption purposes if the chakra's gone.

It makes sense and is perfectly consistent with my reading, it only doesn't make sense with the "elemental jutsu are purely the element within them, no chakra" reading.

If we find an aspect of a clearly defined power that works with one reading but not another, that's evidence that the writer is working with that reading in mind.

I already have. Most are just plain ol' elements. Some are chakra mixed with elements. Some are pure chakra. Some are elements reinforced with chakra.

Wood is the original argument. Your strawman arguments have brought us to cover many more and illogical apply other elements to the same razor.

Let's focus just on wood. Wood is not chakra reinforced. It's wood. The density can probably be adjusted on the user's whim. We can't go beyond those conclusions, however.

You're making the assumption that it's not chakra reinforced even though elemental jutsu having unusual chakra-caused aspects is common for elemental jutsu, and it has unusual aspects that'd make even very high density wood seem unlikely.

Even if it's dozens of times denser, it wouldn't be tough enough, and density does not equal tensile strength. Nor does it show signs of being super-heavy, only super-tough.

Occam's razor in this case is, "If something demonstrates unusual properties, and something has been observed to give those properties, and the thing demonstrating those properties has a link to that something, then the thing probably has that something."

It is not occam's razor to say, "Other stuff has chakra properties, but unless we have direct stating of it for wood, we should assume all of it's properties are purely physical." That's actually more complicated, because it requires two explanations: That some jutsu get their unusual aspects from being full of chakra and some don't.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Seems that an easier explanation is "magic" than claiming elements are not elements, despite being elements. (I hope that makes sense.)

So instead of something specifically being mentioned as being able to have the properties of an element, and having magic properties, you'd rather blame a third entirely unmentioned magic element?

Occam's Razor.

There is a metaphysical property of elements created from chakra that persists and allows preta to quickly disassemble the elements back into chakra.

This could explain why shino's bugs get vaped/burned by chakra created fires, but Preta can absorb chakra created fires: Preta has a "gift" that messes with this 'metaphysical' property.

There's a name for that metaphysical property.

It's chakra.

But that's pratically baseless and I hate trying to pass that off as fact. Still, it works more uniformly than Q99's idea of chakra reinforcement.

I do wonder how it can be more uniform when it's pretty much the same thing with another aspect added.

You're actually managed to re-create my explanation on your own, only calling it something additional to chakra instead of just chakra 🙂

Originally posted by dadudemon
Seems that an easier explanation is "magic" than claiming elements are not elements, despite being elements. (I hope that makes sense.)

There is a metaphysical property of elements created from chakra that persists and allows preta to quickly disassemble the elements back into chakra.

This could explain why shino's bugs get vaped/burned by chakra created fires, but Preta can absorb chakra created fires: Preta has a "gift" that messes with this 'metaphysical' property.

But that's pratically baseless and I hate trying to pass that off as fact. Still, it works more uniformly than Q99's idea of chakra reinforcement. It explains why the elements are used for burning thing, washing things, building things, etc. They are actually elements, but have a metaphysical property that allows "ninjutsu absorbers" like preta to reverse the magic.

Also, if we accept that nature manipulations cause something to be exactly the element it is creating, how does Chidori Sword work? Normal lightning couldn't form a physical and discrete blade like that.

Originally posted by Q99
So instead of something specifically being mentioned as being able to have the properties of an element, and having magic properties, you'd rather blame a third entirely unmentioned magic element?

Occam's Razor.

T-t-

t-that's my argument against your points, the entire time, here. Occam's Razor.

😐

You can't repackage my argument as your own.

And, no, I said my idea was mostly baseless, just like yours, but explains things better yours.

Originally posted by Q99
There's a name for that metaphysical property.

It's chakra.

No, it would be a third kind, that isn't chakra.

Chakra isn't metaphysical. It's measurable, controllable, and real, in the Naruto-verse. I'm talking about a metaphysical property that goes beyond simple physical properties, within the Narutoverse.

Chakra, in this world, is metaphysical, because it's a belief in something that isn't really measurable.

Originally posted by Q99
I do wonder how it can be more uniform when it's pretty much the same thing with another aspect added.

You're actually managed to re-create my explanation on your own, only calling it something additional to chakra instead of just chakra 🙂

You only wish it was that way.

My explanation is another explanation that works out the "bugs" in your explanation whlie still preserving my original argument. At least I can admit that mine is mostly baseless.

Originally posted by King Kandy
However, Samehada has absorbed lightning element, and it specifically absorbs chakra, not "ninjutsu" and its metaphysical properties. This leads me to believe that nature chakra is chakra that has had its "nature" changed to take the form of an element, just like shape is changed during shape manipulation. This would be consistent with the explanations given in the manga.

Also, if we accept that nature manipulations cause something to be exactly the element it is creating, how does Chidori Sword work? Normal lightning couldn't form a physical and discrete blade like that.

Then Samaheda is more like Preta Path than Shino's bugs. That's simple enough, right?

Also, to your lightening sword, that's easy: it's plasma and the chakra can be formed into the plasma blade...like a lightsaber...and...he...got the idea from somewhere else.

There's also the fact that Kishi didn't think to make up techs that work as elements and he's making up fantasy as he goes along.

Edit - Wait, Samehada is a sentient being. The only element he absorbed was lightening, right? Then that's the only exception. It specifically feeds off of chakra, not ninjutsu. Lightening may be so close to chakra that it can be absorbed. Preta should remain supreme as being able to break down all ninjutsu into chakra with samehada having only one exception and that being lightening. Then next up is Shin's bugs and they literally can only absorb non-shaped chakra.

Seems much more logical.

Chakra bulds the jutsu so the jutsu can break it down. I will call this a metaphysical property of chakra created elements. Something that exists in addition to the sub-atomic particles that comprise the elements created from chakra.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Then Samaheda is more like Preta Path than Shino's bugs. That's simple enough, right?

Also, to your lightening sword, that's easy: it's plasma and the chakra can be formed into the plasma blade...like a lightsaber...and...he...got the idea from somewhere else.

There's also the fact that Kishi didn't think to make up techs that work as elements and he's making up fantasy as he goes along.

And how exactly does that work? If it is lightning with no special properties at all, what motivates it to form that shape? Why does it not discharge whenever it touches something? How does it cut, rather than burn/melt?

Originally posted by dadudemon
T-t-

t-that's my argument against your points, the entire time, here. Occam's Razor.

😐

You can't repackage my argument as your own.

Occam's razor is a basic logic tool, you don't own it 🙂

You're trying to add unneeded complexities instead of using an available explanation. Thus, Occam's razor.

No, it would be a third kind, that isn't chakra.

No, no. Just consider, what if it is chakra?

Then everything fits.

Chakra isn't metaphysical. It's measurable, controllable, and real, in the Naruto-verse. I'm talking about a metaphysical property that goes beyond simple physical properties, within the Narutoverse.

But it works if it's chakra 🙂 It can do everything you want this metaphysical property to do.

Chakra, in this world, is metaphysical, because it's a belief in something that isn't really measurable.

Ah, but you want this metaphysical property to be doing something, don't you? It's something samehada and Preta can unravel. So it's there, it's doing something observable.

My explanation is another explanation that works out the "bugs" in your explanation whlie still preserving my original argument. At least I can admit that mine is mostly baseless.

No, no! It's not baseless, it fits well, it just has a small unnecessary part of a non-chakra element.

It specifically feeds off of chakra, not ninjutsu. Lightening may be so close to chakra that it can be absorbed.

One of the five elements is chakra and the other four aren't?

Occam's razor. That adds an additional complexity between the elements.

Chakra bulds the jutsu so the jutsu can break it down. I will call this a metaphysical property of chakra created elements. Something that exists in addition to the sub-atomic particles that comprise the elements created from chakra.

Yea, that's part of the properties of chakra. Hence, chakra's doing it!

I knew you'd come around.

And you said we were going in circles!

Originally posted by Q99
Occam's razor is a basic logic tool, you don't own it 🙂

You really missed my point, then, and this is a strawman fallacy. I never claimed it as my own, only stated that you are now repacking my argument as your own.

Me: baseless speculation.

You: no you.

Capisce?

Originally posted by Q99
You're trying to add unneeded complexities instead of using an available explanation. Thus, Occam's razor.

No, your explanation fails and does not account for everything. Mine does and it works without having to include exceptions every other jutsu.

AKA, Occam's Razor.

Originally posted by Q99
No, no. Just consider, what if it is chakra?

Then everything fits.

THen we end up with too many exceptions that don't fit the explanation not to mention it's completely baseless to assume wood is reinforced by chakra.

Originally posted by Q99
But it works if it's chakra 🙂 It can do everything you want this metaphysical property to do.

I guess you did not pay attention to our discussion. That sucks, because I thought we were getting somewhere. And, no, it can't explain everything.

Originally posted by Q99
Ah, but you want this metaphysical property to be doing something, don't you? It's something samehada and Preta can unravel. So it's there, it's doing something observable.

No it's not "doing" something or anything for that matter. (lol, pun.)

And, who says I have to keep it at "metaphysical"? Why can't I call it a quantum mechanic inside the narutoverse? I win.

Originally posted by Q99
No, no! It's not baseless, it fits well, it just has a small unnecessary part of a non-chakra element.

Yes it is and I've already epxlained why multiple times.

Originally posted by Q99
One of the five elements is chakra and the other four aren't?

Occam's razor. That adds an additional complexity between the elements.

Check this out: Occam's razor is not the answer for everything and it is a fallacy to use it on everything. You are criticizing me for trying to explain why your "idea" works. Did you notice that? Some things require complex explanations and occam's razor is fail. This is also covered in logic 101.

If I don't criticize it, occam's razor still fails because it adds to it as an exception.

It is definitely not "just chakra" we've established that already. So your idea of it being chakra fails from the beginning. However, if I try to justify why your answer is correct to an exception to your rule, then I automatically fail because of occam's razor that I've been trying to apply to this, from the beginning?

Do you see how you've got yourself warped/flipped around?

Unless you're going to argue that the elements created are not actually elements at all. Are you? If you are, then that's a waste as they are definitely elements.

If you argued that the lightening jutsu is comprised of chakra and electrons, then I would not be able to disagree. But I'd ask you how samehada can absorb electrons as well as chakra. Then you could say that he only absorbs the chakra and the electrons dissipate from the jutsu causing it to fall apart into thin air. Then I would agree. Then we would have reached a middle ground.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, that's part of the properties of chakra. Hence, chakra's doing it!

I knew you'd come around.

And you said we were going in circles!

Nah, we still aren't on the same page. You want it to be entirely chakra when it definitely is not.

My explanation, thus far, makes the best possible explanation while still being as simple as possible: elemental jutsu's have an unseen trait that sticks with it even after creation.

I noticed you didn't come up with anything about a chakra matrix supporting the wood. Probably because that's so far fetched it's not worth directly defending, right? 🙂

Edit - Let's get back on track.

Prove that wood jutsu is reinforced with chakra. You have not proven it. The only thing you've done is made arguments for other jutsus (and failed on most of them).