Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I don't really understand what you guys mean by "last". What constitutes as "lasting" against someone? Not being killed instantly?
Let me ask you a question to put it into perspective. How long would Sakura last in a fight against Neji if she where in Hinata's place during the Chunin exam? Or Ino for that matter considering she was comparable to sakura, but actually had a few jutsu up her sleeve.
Originally posted by Darkstorm ZeroLonger than Hinata, I think. She would be smart enough to not attempt to fight him up close.
Let me ask you a question to put it into perspective. How long would Sakura last in a fight against Neji if she where in Hinata's place during the Chunin exam? Or Ino for that matter considering she was comparable to sakura, but actually had a few jutsu up her sleeve.
Your questions flawed though because you're ignoring the most important circumstance: Neji was not fighting seriously, only toying with her, to show just how inferior she was to him. The absolute moment that he got even slightly serious, she lost nigh instantly. That's what... you guys don't seem to be getting. When someone scales themselves down to someone else's level, then it's obvious that however well the weaker person did had absolutely nothing with their own skill. Even that no-name kid with the glasses and drippy nose that follows Konohamaru around would have lasted as long against Neji as Hinata did, if Neji scaled himself down to match the kid, like he did to Hinata.
The match didn't have anyone say that he was lowering his level. The jonin were commenting on how advanced the techniques he was using was- Neji was aiming to destroy her with his overwhelming talent and skill and moves she wouldn't be able to counter, that's not exactly 'fighting down'.
And at the very least, I can't see Sakura do much of anything against the level he was demonstrating. Hinata score several glancing hits and close ones against him, which is better than what Naruto with a whole bunch of clones did in the same position (and Neji was even acting in a similar manner as the Hinata fight).
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
When did Chuunin Exam Hinata ever make use of these enhancements? Only time I recall her doing anything somewhat resembling these is when she was in the forest of death.
What use are the scouting abilities/support aspects in the duel section anyway? Long distance vision or genjutsu breaking isn't going to do a lot to Neji. The byakugan's not like the sharingan, it doesn't unlock new stuff, so she'd have all of it's abilities at the time of the exam, and even before.
She was definitely using the gentle fist against Neji too. Hinata was aiming for his chakra network when they fought.
The byakugan's support edges is something that every last Hyuga'll have and is worth at least one step in rank. And the gentle fist taijutsu/chakra blows is something that every one we've seen has too.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
In that case, I cannot see why someone like Sasuke is 3.5. Naruto's a 3, and while he's dumber than a door-post typically, he's usually very sharp in battle, at least in Part 2.
Current Sasuke is probably 3.5, given his berserker and MS spam status, but Hebi Sasuke was at least 4, and outsmarted Deidara at one point.
Because cleverness is only part of the score, which handles all aspects of intelligence including non-combat ones.
Naruto improvs very well, but he's not as great in some areas of combat-smarts like pre-planning and analytical ability, and out-of-combat stuff like code breaking or medical skills or other such areas are something he hasn't developed much at all, and that 'dumb as a post' typically does drag his score down to a 'mere' 3, even with his excellent combat trickery (though I suspect when the fourth databook rolls around we'll find it's gone up again).
Someone who can do more mental disciplines and who are smart in more areas will have a higher intelligence score than someone who's good in only some of them, even if that 'some' includes combat tactics.
Also on intelligence- consider stuff like Sasuke figuring out the Great Fireball technique so quickly on his own (pre-sharingan!), or all the alterations to chidori.
If Deidara's really good at inventing new uses for clay and figuring out how to make them happen on his own, that matters a lot. He probably invented most of his bomb formula, and definitely came up with the nanobombs, which has got to be absurdly complex.
Naruto has work-arounds, using hundreds of clones to pack in a ton more people-hours in a short time, but that still leaves him spending more mental-time per jutsu to invent them.
Originally posted by psycho gundam
i agree with this (minus the last sentence)what the F is there to compare gaara with? he just has a stoic personality even when planning for war, the other kage...not so much.
they all have some beef with each other to some degree and have more caustic personalities, therefor being more prone to seem less bright in that sort of setting.
A could be considered the smartest cause we all know the hidden lightning was always pretty much mobilized for war, developed imo an even more superior "absolute defense" than what gaara was famed for (he can actually move not to mention it boosts his movement), his village's security is top notch...and let's not forget, he tried to kill madara and zetsu from jump, no pussy footing around, just straight for the kill. the manga would have been over if they weren't either made of plant matter or intangible. (unlike hiruzen biscuits )
I only think he is smarter since he does not adhere to what he rightly paints as old-fashioned thinking. Otherwise, he's as smart as the others.
A is headstrong, and too easily clouded by his emotions. Though technically speaking, he is the leader of the Ninja World right now, well, at least the Alliance. Ossum eh?
Also Raikage's Raiton Armor does not have a defense greater than Gaara's. Enton: Kagutsuchi went through it as if it were not even there. biscuits
Originally posted by King Kandy
Danzo is probably the smartest villain. Dumbest main villain has got to be Nagato. I mean wow, he killed himself because of a book.
Tie between Danzou & Madara IMO.
Madara is currently undertaking a plan that he concocted over 80 years ago. He also revealed a 'plan' to the Kages, which makes me think that he is deceiving them somehow and that they are playing right into his hands.
In terms of overall intelligence though, I'd say it's Orochimaru. He's a geneticist of sorts after all, and he invented a jutsu for a form of immortality.
Originally posted by Q99
Because cleverness is only part of the score, which handles all aspects of intelligence including non-combat ones.Naruto improvs very well, but he's not as great in some areas of combat-smarts like pre-planning and analytical ability, and out-of-combat stuff like code breaking or medical skills or other such areas are something he hasn't developed much at all, and that 'dumb as a post' typically does drag his score down to a 'mere' 3, even with his excellent combat trickery (though I suspect when the fourth databook rolls around we'll find it's gone up again).
Someone who can do more mental disciplines and who are smart in more areas will have a higher intelligence score than someone who's good in only some of them, even if that 'some' includes combat tactics.
Still doesn't justify Hebi Sasuke getting a 3.5, Gaara getting a 4, or someone like Orochimaru getting a 5 in genjutsu despite never having demonstrated any genjutsu in the series. He's good at recognizing that he's in genjutsu, and he's extremely intelligent, but I doubt that would shoot him all the way up to 5.
There is also Sakura getting a strength stat lower than both Sasuke & Naruto. 😐
And while you make a good point there will still be discrepancies. 313
Meh, I'll stick with the manga.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Still doesn't justify Hebi Sasuke getting a 3.5, Gaara getting a 4,
I'm really not seeing why not. They're good at a variety of mental skills.
or someone like Orochimaru getting a 5 in genjutsu despite never having demonstrated any genjutsu in the series. He's good at recognizing that he's in genjutsu, and he's extremely intelligent, but I doubt that would shoot him all the way up to 5.
Maybe he can use Genjutsu very very well, we just haven't seen it. Well, aside from the 'vision of your own death' thing he did with a glance (even if it's minor, doing it by looking? Pretty sweet).
Keep in mind, most foes he fights are S-class who'd be hard to hit with one even if it's good. That or kids he's toying with.
Kabuto's good and did a wide-scale genjutsu, and I can't think of where else he'd learn it but Oro.
Come to think of it, didn't he teach all of the Sound Four their jutsu...? Including Tayuya?
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There is also Sakura getting a strength stat lower than both Sasuke & Naruto. 😐
I think a fair amount of her strength is lumped in with ninjutsu- it's still at least as much about the chakra release as the muscle.
And while you make a good point there will still be discrepancies. 313
I think when one accept that they're supposed to be fairly general. Even most of the oddities tend to have explanations that fit if you think about them.
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygonthat 's not really fair to the character considering she took a back seat to a senju and an uchiha in this manga.
Shit. I remember that little *****.Yes, worst character of the entire series is undoubtedly Part 1 Sakura.
God, how I wanted her to die.
kakashi didn't train her once, if it wasn't for tsunade she wouldn't have gotten anything at all.
i do think that if sakura were to have gone to sunagakure and stayed with chiyo for a year (if she didn't die n shit), and tsunade wasn't the hokage (so those two could just wander around and train like jiraya and naruto did) the girl would have been a contender.
the girl got pretty decent without any special qualities/bloodlines at all, just naturally bright and paralelling tunade/kushina's rage
Originally posted by psycho gundam
the girl got pretty decent without any special qualities/bloodlines at all, just naturally bright and paralelling tunade/kushina's rage
Which is probably why 'part 1' was specified, p2's much much cooler.
She didn't seem to go out of her way to seek training/train hard at that point either, not til Sasuke left and she knew she had to get serious.
Originally posted by Q99still
Which is probably why 'part 1' was specified, p2's much much cooler.She didn't seem to go out of her way to seek training/train hard at that point either, not til Sasuke left and she knew she had to get serious.
she doesn't even come from a special clan or anything, even ino is kind of a big deal considering who her father and family are in the village.
there are no expectations for sakura due to not having a clan legacy to uphold, all she has is the smarts to know how to regulate her personal chackra. all she needed in part one was a tsunade or any other kunouichi to teach her things and you would have had a mini tsunade or whatever long before part II.
kakashi doesn't really care about her training too much it seems.
I do wonder how much he's supposed to be responsible for her training. Squad leaders take them at least partially under their wings, Kakashi did teach teamwork and tree walking and such, but it seems like they don't normally personally oversee most of the squad's training in terms of jutsu unless they personally take someone as protege. Kurenai didn't teach any of her students genjutsu, Asuma only taught Shikamaru knives fairly late in the game.
A squad commander and a teacher seem to be two different things that sometimes overlap but don't have to. Though a squad commander is often used to help arrange a teacher if they don't do it personally.
Hm, I wonder if Kakashi figured Sakura'd move to rear-line or at least non-combat heavy work like become a normal medic nin or a code breaker after awhile. Since she did almost certainly do a lot of research and reading.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He gambled, but only for control of the force. The idea for a joint shinobi force was the only way they could have combated Akatsuki, and none of the others, barring Gaara, would have even thought of the idea, not with their ideals.
Danzou would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for that meddling Ao. 313
Since when is getting tricked by Sasuke a low thing? Deidara got tricked, and was tactically outmaneuvered by him earlier in their battle.Zabuza, not Danzou.
Plus Danzou, you know, controlled and directed the missions of Root for years, an Organization even more secretive than Konoha's Black Ops Organization.
Danzou knew about Ao beforehand because the eye was stolen. On top of that, the idea of "chakra sensors" existing outside of the byakugan is pretty common knowledge, especially someone steeped in covert operations. That was the stupidest thing any main villain has done in the series.
Also, Zabuza was so badass that he didn't need much planning. Not planning well enough and failing a mission is pretty much the cause of failure for any mission. I think it's a huge stretch to call Zabuza stupid for failing a mission. Also, Zabu proved that he was a better tactician than Danzo with his fight with a Genius named Kakashi.
And, Diedara did not really get tricked, at all (if you're referring to the Manda summon or the lightening nulling...either one of those two is not a "tricked Diedara."😉 Refresh my memory of what the trick was. Was it the tricked him with the "almost out of chakra" and then summoning Manda? LOL! hahahaha...alright, alright, I'm done making fun of his is lame-ass PIS.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Danzo is probably the smartest villain. Dumbest main villain has got to be Nagato. I mean wow, he killed himself because of a book.
Definitely not.
He has failed at every major plan he's ever had.
Become Hokage of Sarutobi? Fail.
Become the Hokage due to the Pain invasion? Fail.
Defeat Sasuke with Izanagi? Fail. He got tricked by genjutsu...something he commented that Sasuke sucked at compared to his brother.
Take control of the kage summit leader's mind to get an alliance going with him in charge? Failed, horribly.
Let Kononha get destroyed by killing that toad so Naruto couldn't come and save the village from Pain? Failed.
Have Sai infiltrate Oro's little outfit? Failed.
See what I mean? IMO, if you think that Danzo is smart, you've missed the raging clues that Kishi left for us, indicating that Danzo is an ass and a moron.
Originally posted by Sappho
danzo is an ass. i dont like him.jw, whos your guys' favorite character
mine would probably be kakashi or neji
Mine is Naruto.
Next is probably Shikamaru or Kakashi.
Den....Hinata. lol
Originally posted by psycho gundam
that 's not really fair to the character considering she took a back seat to a senju and an uchiha in this manga.kakashi didn't train her once, if it wasn't for tsunade she wouldn't have gotten anything at all.
i do think that if sakura were to have gone to sunagakure and stayed with chiyo for a year (if she didn't die n shit), and tsunade wasn't the hokage (so those two could just wander around and train like jiraya and naruto did) the girl would have been a contender.
the girl got pretty decent without any special qualities/bloodlines at all, just naturally bright and paralelling tunade/kushina's rage
Kakashi DID train her: he taught her how to walk up and stay on trees. Teehee.
edit - *checks remaing posts*
DAAAAMN YOU, Q99. 😆 you beat me to it.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Become Hokage of Sarutobi? Fail.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Become the Hokage due to the Pain invasion? Fail.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Defeat Sasuke with Izanagi? Fail. He got tricked by genjutsu...something he commented that Sasuke sucked at compared to his brother.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Take control of the kage summit leader's mind to get an alliance going with him in charge? Failed, horribly.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Let Kononha get destroyed by killing that toad so Naruto couldn't come and save the village from Pain? Failed.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Have Sai infiltrate Oro's little outfit? Failed.
Tsunade: She sent people to retrieve Sasuke... and failed! What a moron!
Orochimaru: He sent out the sound 4... and they died! What a moron!
Madara: He sent Pein to retrieve Naruto... and he failed! What a moron!
Kumo government: They wanted to kill Hiashi... and failed! Morons, every one of them!
Originally posted by dadudemon
See what I mean? IMO, if you think that Danzo is smart, you've missed the raging clues that Kishi left for us, indicating that Danzo is an ass and a moron.
DadudemonDanzou knew about Ao beforehand because the eye was stolen. On top of that, the idea of "chakra sensors" existing outside of the byakugan is pretty common knowledge, especially someone steeped in covert operations. That was the stupidest thing any main villain has done in the series.
But I doubt normal chakra sensors could pick it up as surely- C didn't notice after all. Ao's familiarity with Shisui's eye also gave him a hint others wouldn't have had, and it combined with the byakugan let him identify the jutsu.
It was overstretching of Danzo, but it also made sense why he tried. He felt taking a risk was the right thing to do, due to his cynicism and knowledge of his own reputation. From his point of view it was a reasonable gamble.
Become the Hokage due to the Pain invasion? Fail.
Succeeded, he was acting Hokage, if it wasn't for a separate failure he would've kept the job too.
Defeat Sasuke with Izanagi? Fail. He got tricked by genjutsu...something he commented that Sasuke sucked at compared to his brother.
In the sense that Sasuke couldn't do the time dilation, but even a less skillfully used tsukiyomi is a very strong genjutsu.
Take control of the kage summit leader's mind to get an alliance going with him in charge? Failed, horribly.
Agreed.
Let Kononha get destroyed by killing that toad so Naruto couldn't come and save the village from Pain? Failed.
Succeeded. His plan was to become Hokage by making repelling the assault harder for Tsunade, and to have the 9-tails still around and uncaptured after.
Naruto returning wasn't exactly as planned, but it worked within the bounds of his overall goal, and it was delayed enough due to his action that Tsunade was taken out of commission.
Have Sai infiltrate Oro's little outfit? Failed.
Sai actually did get in, though. What happened next wasn't as planned due to Sai's defection, but the infiltration plan did get him into the organization.
*Edits out some due to King Kandy beating me to 'em*