The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by Q99
It was overstretching of Danzo, but it also made sense why he tried. He felt taking a risk was the right thing to do, due to his cynicism and knowledge of his own reputation. From his point of view it was a reasonable gamble.

Okay, fair enough. Still stupid, imo, to attempt something like that when there is most likely chakra sensor types present.

Originally posted by Q99
Succeeded, he was acting Hokage, if it wasn't for a separate failure he would've kept the job too.

Failed, Acting Hokage /= Hokage.

Acting Hokage = Acting Hokage.

Kakashi, on the other hand, ALMOST became the real deal. He came far closer to being Hokage than Danzo ever did.

Originally posted by Q99
In the sense that Sasuke couldn't do the time dilation, but even a less skillfully used tsukiyomi is a very strong genjutsu.

That pwn on Danzo, at the end there, was tsukiyomi? I thought it was regular ol' genjutsu? (Which is why I thought Danzo was so full of fail.)

Originally posted by Q99
Agreed.

lol!

YESSSSS! 💃

Originally posted by Q99
Succeeded. His plan was to become Hokage by making repelling the assault harder for Tsunade, and to have the 9-tails still around and uncaptured after.

Failed for the following reasons:

1. Mostly because I said so.
2. Naruto came to the village and saved it anyway.
3. Tsunade survived.
4. He never became Hokage.
5. Pain's bodies were defeated and Pain died.
6. But mostly because I said so and point #2. 😆

And, his goal was to rise from the ashes of a destroyed Konoha as the Hokage with the "Senju dogs" out of "office." He failed, quite miserbly, there, and he failed in preventing Naruto from coming back and saving the village.

Originally posted by Q99
Naruto returning wasn't exactly as planned, but it worked within the bounds of his overall goal, and it was delayed enough due to his action that Tsunade was taken out of commission.

Not only did Naruto return back and save the village from utter ruin, he also saved every last person's life. There was only physical destruction. So not only did Danzo fail, there, things turned out even better than the opposite of his plans: no one person died from Konoha.

Originally posted by Q99
Sai actually did get in, though. What happened next wasn't as planned due to Sai's defection, but the infiltration plan did get him into the organization.

He miscalculated and failed. The end result is what actually mattered, not the beginning. Did that particular major goal of his, succeed? We can emphatically say, "no."

Originally posted by Q99
*Edits out some due to King Kandy beating me to 'em*

Not to mention unlike Orochimaru most of Danzo's failures weren't due to any exceptional blundering on his part (kage summit is the only exception). Seems more like he just had a run of bad luck and failures than that he actually did much that was stupid.

Originally posted by King Kandy
That wasn't a "plan", he just competed and lost to another candidate.

😆

GTFO.

That was a major plan, dude. Probably his biggest plan of his entire life.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Um, that one actually worked...

Danzo was never the Hokage. Fail.

Originally posted by King Kandy
He was planning to fight Madara, not Sasuke. The fact that Madara actually didn't dare fight him on his own says quite a bit, he didn't fear to fight Konan. In any case, that's a good feat to Sasuke's credit.

Does not matter. A ninja of his supposed "caliber" should not have become so complacent to have fallen for such a lame trick when he had the ultimate technique actually seen, thus far.

Originally posted by King Kandy
That didn't work so well.

Lulz.

Originally posted by King Kandy
It worked just fine, he got what he wanted anyway.

No he didn't for reasons I defined to Q99.

He failed in every last category.

He did not become Hokage.

Most of Konoha's military was not destroyed (in fact, they all lived.)

And Tsunade was not killed/"ousted" from "office."

All three main objectives FAILED.

Originally posted by King Kandy
By that logic every ninja leader in the series is a moron. What leaders have not had their underlings fail at some point?

Tsunade: She sent people to retrieve Sasuke... and failed! What a moron!

Orochimaru: He sent out the sound 4... and they died! What a moron!

Madara: He sent Pein to retrieve Naruto... and he failed! What a moron!

Kumo government: They wanted to kill Hiashi... and failed! Morons, every one of them!

1. I'm not the one making whiny claims that Danzo is some sort of planning genius. Just pointing out another one of his plans that failed.
2. You might actually have a point if that was the only point I made.
3. It was a major operation and not just another petty task like retrieving Sasuke.
4. The sound four's mission was to retrieve Sasuke. Succeed. You fail at knowing what fail is (which is why you responded to my post trying to refute my points when you shouldn't have because everything I said was correct.)
5. Madara certainly DID fail, majorly, when Pain failed to retrieve Naruto. He did not plan on Naruto mastery Sage mode AND turning Pain to the light side. Major major fail on Madara's part. So huge, in fact, that it could be the undoing of his entire plans. But, what do I know, Danzo can do no wrong. 😆
6. They certainly DID fail to kill Hiashi but it wasn't a major plan of world domination, though, and there's no way they could have known that Hiashi had a twin brother. Hell, even Hiashi didn't think his twin brother would step in for the death. 😄
7. Fail on making even one good comparison.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Not really. He was just a villain who lost in the end. Orochimaru, for instance, had a lot more failed plans than Danzo did and he still is firmly in the "genius" category. Madara's botched a few himself. I don't know if you've noticed, but no villain has all of their plans work, or else the heroes would be dead by now.

No, he was literally, the biggest failure of a "villain" in the series, to date. He failed at pretty much every last plan he had.

Oro failed more in creating results in lab experiements than anyone else because it was on the mother ****in' cuttin' edge of jutsus, baby! 😆

And, what plans did Oro fail in?

Immortality Jutsu: Check.
Hokage-ship? Was a goal but realized it wasn't the best suited for pursuing his dream so it wasn't really a fail.
Destroying Konoha? Almost. Gaara was the last piece of the puzzle...he didn't count on Gaara being a emo tard. Hmmm...sounds really familiar to another villain that tried to facilitate Konoha's destruction. However, I'd say that Oro's plan was far more masterful than Danzo's as Danzo was just capitalizing on an existing situation and Oro planned that whole sh*t out. Far more of a genius than Danzo, that's for sure.
Learn all the Jutsus in the world? Death ended that one, so FAIL! 😆
Take over Sasuke's body? The biggest fail on his part. He waaaaay miscalculated this one. Still, this one fail is similar to all the fails Danzo made.

Anyway, I'm pretty solid in my reasoning with why Danzo is a failure and you rebutted jack. Just face it: Danzo is not the awesome planner that both you and I thought he was. He is a big ol' pile of fail.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Not to mention unlike Orochimaru most of Danzo's failures weren't due to any exceptional blundering on his part (kage summit is the only exception). Seems more like he just had a run of bad luck and failures than that he actually did much that was stupid.

I disagree. Oro is the one with the bad luck and Danzo is the planning failure.

Gaara going ape-sh*t? Bad luck.

Sasuke turning on Oro right at the end there before he took over Sasuke's body? He actually fully planned on that happening and would have completely succeeded if Sasuke hadn't PIS'd his way into...get this....TAKING OVER OROCHIMARU'S ON MOTHER ****in' UNIVERSE! :laugh. That was probably the biggest Sasuke PIS moment in the series, thus far...now that I think about it. So, that one, more bad luck. And, technically, Oro survived and if it weren't for having, get this, extremely bad luck into running into Susano'o's ultimate sealing sword, he would have had not one but two Uchiha bodies to make his schweet Michael Jackson lookin', Pedo love to.

What are these massive failures of Oros, other than the ones that are bad luck driven?

Doube Edit - As you can tell, I like Oro better as a villain than Danzo. Danzo just sucked too much in the brains department to be a good villain for me.

Originally posted by dadudemon
😆

GTFO.

That was a major plan, dude. Probably his biggest plan of his entire life.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Danzo was never the Hokage. Fail.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Does not matter. A ninja of his supposed "caliber" should not have become so complacent to have fallen for such a lame trick when he had the ultimate technique actually seen, thus far.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No he didn't for reasons I defined to Q99.

He failed in every last category.

He did not become Hokage.

Most of Konoha's military was not destroyed (in fact, they all lived.)

And Tsunade was not killed/"ousted" from "office."

All three main objectives FAILED.

Originally posted by dadudemon
[B]Sasuke turning on Oro right at the end there before he took over Sasuke's body? He actually fully planned on that happening and would have completely succeeded if Sasuke hadn't PIS'd his way into...get this....TAKING OVER OROCHIMARU'S ON MOTHER ****in' UNIVERSE! :laugh. That was probably the biggest Sasuke PIS moment in the series, thus far...now that I think about it. So, that one, more bad luck. And, technically, Oro survived and if it weren't for having, get this, extremely bad luck into running into Susano'o's ultimate sealing sword, he would have had not one but two Uchiha bodies to make his schweet Michael Jackson lookin', Pedo love to.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Kakashi DID train her: he taught her how to walk up and stay on trees. Teehee.

edit - *checks remaing posts*

DAAAAMN YOU, Q99. 😆 you beat me to it.

she's a girl so she is automatically the healer of the squad, i get that but goddamn, he should have made her train on her speed cause that's the main component of a field medic (nimbleness/evasion/expedient support)

tsunade was able to keep up with orochimaru and kabuto whom both said it was not a good thing to get hit even once by her.

look at it this way: sakura's first real fight (where she was ready) was against ino (no training or attention from kakashi era sakura). her next premier bout...goddamn sasori. she did pretty damn welll there cause she can absorb knowledge like a sponge, and tsunade gave her some of the best taijutsu skills one could have, including agility and speed, kakashi could have had a sick team if he cared in part I.

now compare current ino (who did jack shit) with current sakura (whom is now trained) and have them fight again like the chuunin exam...... sakaura would have to hold back to not smear ino all over the battlefield. 😐

Originally posted by dadudemon

Not only did Naruto return back and save the village from utter ruin, he also saved every last person's life. There was only physical destruction. So not only did Danzo fail, there, things turned out even better than the opposite of his plans: no one person died from Konoha.

That's extra good for his plans, it means more ninja under his control as Hokage.

His interventions caused exactly the outcome he was hoping for: Leadership of Konoha's ninja due to Tsunade being out of the way. Tsunade was the sole target, the rest were merely unfortunate sacrifices, with the fewer lost the better.

Naruto's arrival also prevented it from being necessary for him to play any more cards from him hand.

Another, completely unrelated matter later took that away from him, but that plan? A major success, even better than predicted in some aspects.

He miscalculated and failed. The end result is what actually mattered, not the beginning. Did that particular major goal of his, succeed? We can emphatically say, "no."

He didn't miscalculate, he calculated to the best of his abilities and sent the best operative for the job only for outside factors to intervene, which was always a possibility in any mission against such a hard target.

The problem wasn't in the planning stages is the point, and not something he could've affected.

psycho gundam

look at it this way: sakura's first real fight (where she was ready) was against ino (no training or attention from kakashi era sakura). her next premier bout...goddamn sasori. she did pretty damn welll there cause she can absorb knowledge like a sponge, and tsunade gave her some of the best taijutsu skills one could have, including agility and speed, kakashi could have had a sick team if he cared in part I.

Also of note, Ino's specialty is that of a spy/intelligence role, not even a combat speciality, it's what her possession jutsu is designed for.

Pt 1 Sakura lack much in the way of speciality other than 'general knowledge.' She did set up some traps during the Forest, and did ok holding out for awhile against the Sound ninja, so perhaps that sort of stuff was her initial focus, but yea.

Ms. Haruno was basically one of those college kids who was coasting by on smarts over effort and hadn't decided on a major yet.

Only thing Danzo did that I thought was really stupid was underestimate Sasuke and do everything in his power to piss the kid off. Seriously, I know Madara was his main concern at the time but Sasuke had a reputation to his name and at the time I don't even think Danzo knew that Sasuke really hadn't killed Itachi. Pure arrogance.

He may have been tempting Sasuke to make mistakes and waste chakra. After all, Sasuke using his best moves early = good, when Izanagi is concerned.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Also, Zabuza was so badass that he didn't need much planning. Not planning well enough and failing a mission is pretty much the cause of failure for any mission. I think it's a huge stretch to call Zabuza stupid for failing a mission. Also, Zabu proved that he was a better tactician than Danzo with his fight with a Genius named Kakashi.

And, Diedara did not really get tricked, at all (if you're referring to the Manda summon or the lightening nulling...either one of those two is not a "tricked Diedara."😉 Refresh my memory of what the trick was. Was it the tricked him with the "almost out of chakra" and then summoning Manda? LOL! hahahaha...alright, alright, I'm done making fun of his is lame-ass PIS.

Definitely not.

He has failed at every major plan he's ever had.

Become Hokage of Sarutobi? Fail.

Become the Hokage due to the Pain invasion? Fail.

Defeat Sasuke with Izanagi? Fail. He got tricked by genjutsu...something he commented that Sasuke sucked at compared to his brother.

Take control of the kage summit leader's mind to get an alliance going with him in charge? Failed, horribly.

Let Kononha get destroyed by killing that toad so Naruto couldn't come and save the village from Pain? Failed.

Have Sai infiltrate Oro's little outfit? Failed.

See what I mean? IMO, if you think that Danzo is smart, you've missed the raging clues that Kishi left for us, indicating that Danzo is an ass and a moron.

Zabuza is so badass he doesn't need much planning? That's hilarious. That may be because he only had to assassinate people, and then there is his failure in his attempted coup. Yeah, that's some real badassery right there.
Also, Zabuza got tricked by Genin Sasuke & Genin Naruto with a Shuriken tech.
Though he is a better tactician than Nagato.

None of those. The Manda thing was a counter to Deidara's last-ditch effort, while the lightning nullification was something Sasuke had to figure out, and Deidara already knew about.
Try Deidara getting genjutsu'd into thinking Sasuke was killed by his second C4, leaving him open to getting socked in his face. Or Deidara being outmaneuvered here: http://haven-reader.net/Naruto/359/18

Sasuke almost out of chakra in his fight against Deidara? Nahh, Deidara only thought he was out of chakra, and Deidara does not have the Sharingan or Byakugan.

As opposed to all the successes in major plans that villains like Nagato & Zabuza have had, amirite?
Madara and Orochimaru are the only villains that have had plans like Danzou, and Orochimaru's plans have only involved getting immortality + all jutsu + Sasuke.

Also, let's see what the other Kages have to compare to Danzou,
since we were originally discussing the Kages.
Gaara: Nothing. His only plan so far was to convert Sasuke. Failed.
A: Tried to get the Byakugan by kidnapping a Hyuuga. Failed.
Mei: Absolutely nothing.
Onoki: Nothing known so far.

Partly incorrect.
a) Sasuke's Tsukiyomi sucks compared to Itachi's Tsukiyomi, which is at least in the Top 3 Genjutsu seen so far.
b) You insinuate that Sasuke sucks at genjutsu compared to Itachi, which is fairly pointless since everyone sucks compared to the greatest genjutsu user in the manga. Sasuke happens to suck far less than someone like C, Kurenai & Kakashi.

Not really. He's just indicating that Danzou is smart, but that his plans have had far greater reach and consequences. For one, at least Danzou has had plans, and his plans have involved the future of Konoha and the Ninja World, not self-immortality or assassinating people. Only Madara's plan is more far-reaching. Dude's been planning for roughly 80 years, and wants to combine the Bijuu in order to revive a primordial beast.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Only thing Danzo did that I thought was really stupid was underestimate Sasuke and do everything in his power to piss the kid off. Seriously, I know Madara was his main concern at the time but Sasuke had a reputation to his name and at the time I don't even think Danzo knew that Sasuke really hadn't killed Itachi. Pure arrogance.

Originally posted by Q99
He may have been tempting Sasuke to make mistakes and waste chakra. After all, Sasuke using his best moves early = good, when Izanagi is concerned.

I think he was actually arrogant in the early stages of the fight.

Plus, what would have happened if he had actually won against Sasuke in their final clash? He'd be left with little to no chakra, no extra eyes for Izanagi, and only Shisui's doujutsu. (which Madara seemingly has as well)

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Zabuza is so badass he doesn't need much planning? That's hilarious. That may be because he only had to assassinate people, and then there is his failure in his attempted coup. Yeah, that's some real badassery right there.

It is. Being a famous assassin because you're so awesome at assassination is a tall order.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Also, Zabuza got tricked by Genin Sasuke & Genin Naruto with a Shuriken tech.
Though he is a better tactician than Nagato.

Yeah, cause he's not a 'detector' ninja and anyone would have fallen for that technique because it wasn't a technique shown by those two, at that point (in a fight.) How is he supposed to know that the shuriken is a ninja without a Sharingan or Byakugan?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
None of those. The Manda thing was a counter to Deidara's last-ditch effort, while the lightning nullification was something Sasuke had to figure out, and Deidara already knew about.
Try Deidara getting genjutsu'd into thinking Sasuke was killed by his second C4, leaving him open to getting socked in his face. Or Deidara being outmaneuvered here: http://haven-reader.net/Naruto/359/18

I can't see the posting so I do not know what it is. And pretending to be dead? A child's trick? Looks like Ol' deedee is a dee dee dee.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Sasuke almost out of chakra in his fight against Deidara? Nahh, Deidara only thought he was out of chakra, and Deidara does not have the Sharingan or Byakugan.

No, Sasuke said he was almost out, himself.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
As opposed to all the successes in major plans that villains like Nagato & Zabuza have had, amirite?

Yeah, Nagato beat Hanzô of the Salamander, conquered an entire nation with a coup, setup his own government, captured tailed beasts, and help coordinate Akatsuki. Yeah, Nagato is far from a failure. Also, Konan and Nagato, imo, could have easily taken Naruto down when he jumped into the paper tree.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Madara and Orochimaru are the only villains that have had plans like Danzou, and Orochimaru's plans have only involved getting immortality + all jutsu + Sasuke.

Nah, Nagato had massive plans like saving the world n'stuff. If Naruto succeeds in his "ninja way", then Nagato's ultimate plan will succeed, too.

lol at the last part.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Also, let's see what the other Kages have to compare to Danzou,
since we were originally discussing the Kages.
Gaara: Nothing. His only plan so far was to convert Sasuke. Failed.
A: Tried to get the Byakugan by kidnapping a Hyuuga. Failed.
Mei: Absolutely nothing.
Onoki: Nothing known so far.

I do not remember using just the "plans" for the kages as a measure. In fact, I didn't. I was just comparing governing smarts and "philosphy." Gaara had everyone beat in spades with that.

And, when did Gaara try to convert Sasuke? I thought it was more of a casual question. And didn't he later say he would kill Sasuke or something? (When he spoke to Naruto, later on.)

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Partly incorrect.
a) Sasuke's Tsukiyomi sucks compared to Itachi's Tsukiyomi, which is at least in the Top 3 Genjutsu seen so far.

Indeed. That was the first genjutsu attack used by Sasuke and I remember that part. But Sasuke used another genjutsu a second time and it was never referred to as a Tsukuyomi, was it?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
b) You insinuate that Sasuke sucks at genjutsu compared to Itachi, which is fairly pointless since everyone sucks compared to the greatest genjutsu user in the manga. Sasuke happens to suck far less than someone like C, Kurenai & Kakashi.

Really? I don't think so. Sasuke has a built in genjutsu hax known as Tsukuyomi..one of the if not the most powerful genjutsus. Yet, Danzo easily broke out of it. Seems like Sasuke really really sucks with it, eh? Bee got out of it because of his tailed beast partner.

IMO, the greatest Genjutsu feat, thus far, is Oros against Sasuke and Sakura, in the woods. He didn't even move his hands he just looked. That's more genjutsu talent than Itachi. Agreed? (Itachi can just flick his fingers...but Oro doesn't have to even do that.)

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Not really. He's just indicating that Danzou is smart, but that his plans have had far greater reach and consequences. For one, at least Danzou has had plans, and his plans have involved the future of Konoha and the Ninja World, not self-immortality or assassinating people. Only Madara's plan is more far-reaching. Dude's been planning for roughly 80 years, and wants to combine the Bijuu in order to revive a primordial beast.

I disagree. It indicates that Danzo is not very smart and his planned poorly. Also, Danzo very much is steeped in assassinating people. He's Root's leader. Bingo book...

And his plans for "konoha" were ruling it in a way he thought best (compared to those "senju dogs".)

Dadudemon
Also, Konan and Nagato, imo, could have easily taken Naruto down when he jumped into the paper tree.

I think the fact he was inside a *paper* tree speaks to that 🙂 Going Fox again may have been his only chance.

IMO, the greatest Genjutsu feat, thus far, is Oros against Sasuke and Sakura, in the woods. He didn't even move his hands he just looked. That's more genjutsu talent than Itachi. Agreed? (Itachi can just flick his fingers...but Oro doesn't have to even do that.)

While done effortlessly, that was a pretty easy one to break out of.

The finger flick one was so tricky that even Naruto doing the genjutsu release thing didn't work.

Originally posted by Q99
That's extra good for his plans, it means more ninja under his control as Hokage.

No, that's the complete opposite of what he wanted. He wanted Konoha to be weakened so he could rule it, much easier.

http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-424-page-3.html

He planned on sacrifices. In fact, I think (this is speculation) that the more sacrifices, the better, so he could make a case for her being unfit, in the event she did not die. How else would he make a case that she was unfit if everyone survived? Since everyone survived, and there were not a few casualities, he has/had no case for making her unfit.

See, I'm right. awesome

Originally posted by Q99
His interventions caused exactly the outcome he was hoping for: Leadership of Konoha's ninja due to Tsunade being out of the way. Tsunade was the sole target, the rest were merely unfortunate sacrifices, with the fewer lost the better.

Naruto's arrival also prevented it from being necessary for him to play any more cards from him hand.

No, the exact opposite of his plans resulted: he did not become the Hokage, Naruto came to the village and saved it from major destruction, and everylast person survived (making his case against Tsunade being unfit, a failure).

His whole plan felll apart. Kishi made that a particular point because, "love and faith" are far superior than mainpulation, murder by negligence, and cold-heartless thinking.

Danzo was like: "ZOMG! Keep the 9-Tails back!"

And Tsunade was like: "ZOMG! He's uber powerful, has the will of fire, and everyone has faith in him! He will surpass Jiraiya and save us!" If you think I'm joking, that was a very close paraphrase that Tsunade used to her advisors...lol...dead serious. Go back and read chapter 421. I believe he diatribe starts on page 5.

Tsunade's soft Senju ways were right, and he was wrong. So on the military philosophy, he was wrong there too.

In other words, more fail on Danzo's part.

Originally posted by Q99
Another, completely unrelated matter later took that away from him, but that plan? A major success, even better than predicted in some aspects.

Partially correct. It would have been taken away from him, anyway, when Tsunade came back. Instead of it being Kakashi confirmed, it would have been Danzo. Keep in mind that Danzo was just acting under th Daiymo's "okay." On top of that, Danzo may not have been put in, anyway, because it was discovered that he was controlling Mifune. Danzo may have gotten the smack down when he got back to the village. Come to think of it, that was the end of the road for Danzo as the only think left to do at that point was run until someone makes good on their bingo book entry. (They only have to use genjutsu to beat him...afterall. 313 )

Originally posted by Q99
He didn't miscalculate, he calculated to the best of his abilities and sent the best operative for the job only for outside factors to intervene, which was always a possibility in any mission against such a hard target.

The problem wasn't in the planning stages is the point, and not something he could've affected.

Wait, he didn't miscalculate...but then you say he failed beacuse he calculated to the best of his abilities with what tools he had? That sounds like a miscalculation to me. He should have quit his wicked ways. He should have forseen what Sai would do based on the "soft senju" ways. Ergo, he miscalculated and his plan failed.

Again, what I said is correct: "He miscalculated and failed. The end result is what actually mattered, not the beginning. Did that particular major goal of his, succeed? We can emphatically say, "no."

Originally posted by Q99
I think the fact he was inside a *paper* tree speaks to that 🙂 Going Fox again may have been his only chance.

Lulz. Tis a shame that Kishi killed her off...

If I were a betting man, I'd say that the entire tree was one giant mass of explosion tags.

Originally posted by Q99
While done effortlessly, that was a pretty easy one to break out of.

The finger flick one was so tricky that even Naruto doing the genjutsu release thing didn't work.

I disagree that it was easy to break out of. Sasuke had to stab himself to break out of it (and that took him a while to even pull off) and Sakura could not even release it and she was good at it...really good. IMO, that scene was just to show how strong Sasuke's will was. You know, back in the day, when Sasuke earned his techs and progress?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Sasuke sucks

Originally posted by King Kandy
I fail to see what "planning" was involved in that "plan". I think you're using a different definition than I am in this topic. Just because I say I "plan on winning the bowling tournament" does not mean I have an actual plan in my mind to do so.

That is comletely unrelated to my point. We have no differences. You just tried to say that Danzo did not plan on taking over Mifune's mind, taking over the Kage Summit, and taking over the military forces of all the great nations, to fight Akatsuki.

Now do you see why I was blowing that point of yours off?

Originally posted by King Kandy
You're just splitting hairs. He may not have had the title but he had the role.

No.I.Am.Not. 😐

He was never the Hokage.

Originally posted by King Kandy
It wasn't a lame trick, it was actually very impressive planning on Sasuke's part. Losing to a good plan by a high S-class ninja isn't exactly a sign of stupidity.

Did you miss the part where I pointed out that he fell victim to the same tech that he dispelled and called lame? (He was like, "LOL!beeeeotch.. Don't be bringin' dat sh*t around my hood. I will break you, son!)

Originally posted by King Kandy
Those weren't objectives, they were midway points to becoming Hokage, which he DID succeed in for a time. And Tsunade was ousted from office by virtue of being in a coma. And in any case, I fail to see how this plan not working showed off exceptional stupidity on his part.

They were objectives or are you going to try and split hairs (and fail in the process) about the word "objective"?

And he did NOT succeed in becoming Hokage. Tsunade was NOT ousted from office, either.

And the reason you do not see it as a failure on his part is because you're blinded by Danzo fanboyism! 😆

NARUTO IS THE BEST! VIVA LA NARUTO B*TCHES!

I've already explained why he's a moron: he probably has autism and does not understand the "ninja way" like Naruto, Yondaime, Sarutobi, Harshirama, Jiraiya, and Kakashi figured out long ago: love and faith in your "comrades." You'd think he would have figured that out time after time when the Senju ways triumphed when they really shouldn't have. Can you think of examples of what I'm referring to? If so, then we do not need to continue this. If not, then I can name more than 6.

Originally posted by King Kandy
All those comparisons were sound. I never said that those people didn't fail, what I said was that them failing didn't mean they were stupid. Madara did fail, but it wasn't because of him being stupid, anymore than any of these things made their perpetrators stupid.

None of them were sound and I showed you why. Instead of making a rebuttal, you want to play word games? Why? Is it really necessary or conducive to a discsusion? You know how much I hate those. 🙁 It hurts, man....it HURTS! 🙁

Originally posted by King Kandy
He may have failed, but not because of anything particularly stupid he did.

No, he did quite a few stupid things and made quite a few stupid assumptions, which is why he failed.

Originally posted by King Kandy
The difference is that Orochimaru's failures were all because of him doing retarded things (challenging both Sasuke and Itachi, he didn't learn from the first time I guess). Danzo's failures except one were because of factors beyond his control.

I do not see a rebuttal in anything you've stated. All I see is a bait and switch. You can switch the argument up to something else, if you want to, but I'm not taking the bait:

"Sasuke turning on Oro right at the end there before he took over Sasuke's body? He actually fully planned on that happening and would have completely succeeded if Sasuke hadn't PIS'd his way into...get this....TAKING OVER OROCHIMARU'S ON MOTHER ****in' UNIVERSE! :laugh. That was probably the biggest Sasuke PIS moment in the series, thus far..."

You can try and down-play that as much as you want, but it won't fly. Oro DID plan on it and knew that it would happen from Sasuke for quite some time. He did not plan on Sasuke "magically" taking over his own universe. I have no idea how that is even logical, but it happened because of Sasuke's magical Sharingan (which wasn't even an MS, yet.)

And, no, Danzo's failures were because he was a moron. Because there were elements beyond his control (because he does not understand the will of fire nor does he understand control) there was not way he would have succeeded in convincing the people with his cold, retarded, logic the Kage summit. Apply ad nauseum to his failures.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Your claim was that he was a moron, not a failure.

Oh no you don't. You can't change what my points were after I've made them. He failed beacuse he was a moron. You know...what I've been showing you for a crap ton of posts, now?

Go play your word games with someone else, please. I do NOT like them, Sam I am. 😐

Originally posted by King Kandy
That wasn't PIS, it was pure stupidity. Itachi did it before to Orochimaru, so Oro should have known that it was possible. He has nobody to blame for that one but himself. The only comparatively stupid thing Danzo did was using Shisui's eye, and at least that one wasn't while his life was on the line.

No, Oro's life wasn't on the line the first time against Itachi NOR was it on the line against Sasuke the second time. Also, Oro had the seal on Sasuke, still, so I guess he was counting on his control over Sasuke, with the seal, to work? Makes sense. Also, Sasuke did not have the MS at the time so it seemed like a logical choice in gaining the Sharingan, at last. Even if he failed, he'd still live on because of his cursed seal. (Does that mean that Kishimoto thought of the "horucrux" before JK Rowling did?)

But this isn't about Oro being mad power hungry, this is about Danzo being a moron and a failure.

Edit - You do realize that you will never convince me otherwise, right? I've read all the same information you have and the evidence stacks against Danzo: he's a moron. IMO, Kishimoto wrote that character specifically to show why the "will of fire" is superior: the cold bastard method will fail, eventually. (But in Danzo's case, it fails a bunch of times.)

Double edit - Oro didn't get Itachi cause Itachi had the MS. Itachi use tsukuyomi paralyze Oro, Sasuke didn't. I suppose Oro counted on that with the cursed seal to make it succeed that time? What do you think? I think that's debatable.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah, Nagato is far from a failure. Also, Konan and Nagato, imo, could have easily taken Naruto down when he jumped into the paper tree.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Indeed. That was the first genjutsu attack used by Sasuke and I remember that part. But Sasuke used another genjutsu a second time and it was never referred to as a Tsukuyomi, was it?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Really? I don't think so. Sasuke has a built in genjutsu hax known as Tsukuyomi..one of the if not the most powerful genjutsus. Yet, Danzo easily broke out of it. Seems like Sasuke really really sucks with it, eh? Bee got out of it because of his tailed beast partner.

Originally posted by King Kandy
You've got to be shitting me... didn't I argue that point for pages and pages when it first happened, only for you to continue insisting Nagato would have lost?

No we didn't. Not at all.

And this is before I knew that Konan is uber hax ninja pwn.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Sasuke used a single Genjutsu, Tsukuyomi, that had a two-part effect. First, it made an image of Itachi appear (immediate effect), and then it made a lingering illusion of Danzo having one eye more on his arm (secondary effect). Danzo thought that the first effect was Sasuke's plan, but actually the whole time it was the secondary one that was important. It was a great strategy on Sasuke's part.

That WAS a great strategy on Sasuke's part. But don't you think that Danzo should have been prepared for that? Is Sasuke REALLY the first person to use a double layered genjutsu?

Originally posted by King Kandy
Danzo didn't easily break out of it... he didn't break out of it at all, period. The main effects subsided because it only lasts a few seconds, and the rest lingered on as making Danzo think he had an extra eye for Izanagi. Danzo himself didn't do anything.

I'm referring to the first one, not the second.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That is comletely unrelated to my point. We have no differences. You just tried to say that Danzo did not plan on taking over Mifune's mind, taking over the Kage Summit, and taking over the military forces of all the great nations, to fight Akatsuki.

Now do you see why I was blowing that point of yours off?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Did you miss the part where I pointed out that he fell victim to the same tech that he dispelled and called lame? (He was like, "LOL!beeeeotch.. Don't be bringin' dat sh*t around my hood. I will break you, son!)

Originally posted by dadudemon
I've already explained why he's a moron: he probably has autism and does not understand the "ninja way" like Naruto, Yondaime, Sarutobi, Harshirama, Jiraiya, and Kakashi figured out long ago: love and faith in your "comrades." You'd think he would have figured that out time after time when the Senju ways triumphed when they really shouldn't have. Can you think of examples of what I'm referring to? If so, then we do not need to continue this. If not, then I can name more than 6.

Originally posted by dadudemon
None of them were sound and I showed you why. Instead of making a rebuttal, you want to play word games? Why? Is it really necessary or conducive to a discsusion? You know how much I hate those. 🙁 It hurts, man....it HURTS! 🙁

Originally posted by dadudemon
"Sasuke turning on Oro right at the end there before he took over Sasuke's body? He actually fully planned on that happening and would have completely succeeded if Sasuke hadn't PIS'd his way into...get this....TAKING OVER OROCHIMARU'S ON MOTHER ****in' UNIVERSE! :laugh. That was probably the biggest Sasuke PIS moment in the series, thus far..."

Originally posted by dadudemon
Double edit - Oro didn't get Itachi cause Itachi had the MS. Itachi use tsukuyomi paralyze Oro, Sasuke didn't. I suppose Oro counted on that with the cursed seal to make it succeed that time? What do you think? I think that's debatable.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That WAS a great strategy on Sasuke's part. But don't you think that Danzo should have been prepared for that? Is Sasuke REALLY the first person to use a double layered genjutsu?

Originally posted by dadudemon
I'm referring to the first one, not the second.

Originally posted by King Kandy
No, i'm talking about him initially losing to Sarutobi in the bid to be 3rd Hokage. The Kage summit had nothing to do with it (i've already admitted that that was the one major stupid thing I think he did).

And so was I. That was a major plan of his: become Hokage and get rid of Hashirama's ways.

Circles: we haz them, nao.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I did see that, but I don't see how that changes anything. The whole point of why that worked was that Sasuke fooled Danzo into thinking the primary illusion was the threat, when it was actually the secondary one. It worked very well, and it showed that Sasuke actually can fight smart when he needs to (even though it still falls under the "spamming MS" category).

But it's not about Sasuke being smart, it's about Danzo being arrogant/stupid/failure.

If I had a tech like that, I'd have a signal go off that only I could tell when it was getting used up (like an earpiece..and they already have those in the manga). Magical wishing eyeballs are pretty dang hax. I have a hard time seeing how someone could lose with some many dang wishes, by Danzo figured out a way, man. HE FIGURED OUT A WAY TO LOSE WHEN HE HAD WISHES!

Based on that, I'd say that Danzo is an A-Class. Poor planner, stolen techs, and well above average speed (he could keep up with Sasuke).

And, yes, Sasuke has his moments such as the double genjutsu...but that's really out of character for him. Amirite? awesome

Originally posted by King Kandy
The "will of fire" is the Konoha religion. It was pretty significant to his character that he was disappointing that he couldn't fulfill it (was too cowardly to sacrifice his life back when he was a kid), and only was able to with his death. It was a great moment of character development, it wasn't so much that he didn't believe in the will of fire as that he just literally didn't have it in him. That was the reason he lost out to Sarutobi, and he hated himself for it.

Uh...yeah, spot on. You understand my point perfectly and even took it a step further. 😐

You d*mn smart bastard! 😠 Stop stealin' my thunda!

Originally posted by King Kandy
I'm not playing word games... I am perfectly willing to admit that he failed in the end, because that's the fate of villains in this manga. I think he did the best he could, though, most decisions he made (except kage summit) were really sound for what he was trying to accomplish.

Okay, then we mostly agree. Well, that was quick.

I think that he's a moron because he failed to understand basic characteristics of other people...hence my autism remark. Because he lacked that ability in understanding, he really DID do well with what tools he had. He did not have the tool of "empathy" at all, and therefore, failed over and over again, in the end, with most of his major plans.

Originally posted by King Kandy
But Itachi had already demonstrated the technique could be reversed. So its not like it was some freak event that he had no way of knowing could happen.

Really? I thought Itachi turned around, busted out Tsukuyomi, and then cut off Oro's hand before Oro could even start the thing? That was a different than what was up with Sasuke. Sasuke did not have MS, at the time, and Sasuke had the cursed seal (so he could control Sasuke.) So even if he did fail, he could just control Sasuke. Even if the control didn't work, he still had the revival via the cursed seal left to live. (I feel like I've stated this before.)

Originally posted by King Kandy
No, read again. In both manga and anime versions, Itachi uses a regular genjutsu to paralyse Orochimaru, not Tsukuyomi. He wasn't even facing Orochimaru so there was no way he could have made eye contact to use MS.

I tried to find it and could not. I thought he got him with Tsu?

Which chapter? If you find it, you will win this point and I will admit fault! 😆