The Official Naruto series Thread

Dadudemon
No, that's the complete opposite of what he wanted. He wanted Konoha to be weakened so he could rule it, much easier.

http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-424-page-3.html

He planned on sacrifices. In fact, I think (this is speculation) that the more sacrifices, the better, so he could make a case for her being unfit, in the event she did not die. How else would he make a case that she was unfit if everyone survived? Since everyone survived, and there were not a few casualities, he has/had no case for making her unfit.

See, I'm right.

He said they were necessary sacrifices so he can become Hokage, he didn't say anything about wanting more damage, in fact he was counting on Tsunade to keep the casualties light.

The goal was entirely becoming Hokage, and in turn he felt being Hokage could make the village strong. He never said he wanted to cut down the number of ninja or anything.

He planned for sacrifices, but they were "payment" for a great goal. Getting the same thing without payment? Score.

No, the exact opposite of his plans resulted: he did not become the Hokage, Naruto came to the village and saved it from major destruction, and everylast person survived (making his case against Tsunade being unfit, a failure).

He did become acting Hokage, and would've become full Hokage had he not messed up the summit (a separate, unrelated action). Naruto returning did not hurt his attempts to achieve his goals, quite the opposite, and nor did the higher survival rate hurt him.

He'd have been in the same position even if he had his own Root ninja finish off Pain after Tsunade went down instead of Naruto doing it.

Admittedly there was some underestimating of Tsunade's strength, but not in a way that hurt his plans at all since she was still out of action, and it was his Root nin who was worried casualties would be too high, and he was the one who said she'd keep casualties low. He simply predicted there'd be some despite that, and the only reason there wasn't was Pain's jutsu which he had no knowledge of, he would've been right otherwise (they'd have lost at least two jonin, including Kakashi, and a variety of weaker ninja were it not for Nagato's defection).

Wait, he didn't miscalculate...but then you say he failed beacuse he calculated to the best of his abilities with what tools he had? That sounds like a miscalculation to me. He should have quit his wicked ways. He should have forseen what Sai would do based on the "soft senju" ways. Ergo, he miscalculated and his plan failed.

Again, what I said is correct: "He miscalculated and failed. The end result is what actually mattered, not the beginning. Did that particular major goal of his, succeed? We can emphatically say, "no."

Not really. Something can fail without having a miscalculation.

What mistake did he make? Could he have sent someone better for the task than Sai? No, they'd have been too weak. It had to be Sai, and even in 'failure' it got an agent in good with the Jinchuuriki and didn't lose his agent.

The cost vs risk of the mission played out in his favor.

A miscalculation specifically refers to a failure in the calculation phase- there was no error there.

Originally posted by dadudemon
It is. Being a famous assassin because you're so awesome at assassination is a tall order.

Not really.
If anything is a tall order, it's hiding your own very questionable activities with far-reaching consequences, for decades. Assassination is child's play compared to that.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah, cause he's not a 'detector' ninja and anyone would have fallen for that technique because it wasn't a technique shown by those two, at that point (in a fight.) How is he supposed to know that the shuriken is a ninja without a Sharingan or Byakugan?

Doesn't change the fact that Zabuza, an experienced ninja, was tricked by a shuriken tech from two kids. Which is far worse than being tricked by a genjutsu from one of the strongest genjutsu users in the manga.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I can't see the posting so I do not know what it is. And pretending to be dead? A child's trick? Looks like Ol' deedee is a dee dee dee.

Deidara realizes he got outmaneuvered.

Nope, Sasuke would not resort to childish tricks such as pretending to be dead or pretending to be something else. Naruto would though. 131

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, Sasuke said he was almost out, himself.

Scans or GTFO.

He admits he's out of chakra in his fight against Itachi (& Itachi has the Sharingan to confirm). No such thing occurs in his fight against Deidara.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah, Nagato beat Hanzô of the Salamander, conquered an entire nation with a coup, setup his own government, captured tailed beasts, and help coordinate Akatsuki. Yeah, Nagato is far from a failure. Also, Konan and Nagato, imo, could have easily taken Naruto down when he jumped into the paper tree.a genjutsu

Most of which could have been done with Madara's help. He certainly had help from Madara in co-ordinating Akatsuki, as he was just a figure-head.
K. Danzou coordinated several plans in the shadows for decades, helped take out Yahiko & saved Konoha from its own destruction via a civil war with the Uchiha. Yeah, clearly Danzou is a failure. He's certainly much less a failure than Nagato, who was really just a fickle puppet.

Ahh, but they didn't, did they. kruemelmonsteryn0
Plus Nagato wanted to actually speak with Naruto.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Nah, Nagato had massive plans like saving the world n'stuff. If Naruto succeeds in his "ninja way", then Nagato's ultimate plan will succeed, too.

lol at the last part.

No, we both know that Nagato was Madara's little toy right until Naruto changed Nagato's view of the world with words and a book.

We all know Sasuke is like the most sought after ninja in Naruto-verse, for a variety of reasons. Naruto & Sakura want to marry him. Orochimaru & Kabuto want(ed) his body. Madara wants him for some unrevealed purpose/syncing with Gedo Mazo. Kakashi & Gaara wanted to save him. Karin wanted to ravage him. All 5 Kages wanted to stop him, with the other 4 wanting to kill him.
Yeah. stoned

Originally posted by dadudemon
I do not remember using just the "plans" for the kages as a measure. In fact, I didn't. I was just comparing governing smarts and "philosphy." Gaara had everyone beat in spades with that.

And, when did Gaara try to convert Sasuke? I thought it was more of a casual question. And didn't he later say he would kill Sasuke or something? (When he spoke to Naruto, later on.)

Except Gaara has shown nothing when it comes to governing smarts. Neither have any of the other Kages.
As for actual 'Philosophy' & governing smarts, both Gaara & Danzou knew that they would need help from the other countries in order to combat Akatsuki. Only one suggested a joint force.

He said he wanted to speak to Sasuke. But of course, if Naruto cannot change Sasuke with words, Gaara won't be able to.
Also, he might have, but that was after he found out that Sasuke is beyond saving.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Indeed. That was the first genjutsu attack used by Sasuke and I remember that part. But Sasuke used another genjutsu a second time and it was never referred to as a Tsukuyomi, was it?

Sasuke used his right Mangekyo Sharingan though. Points to Tsukiyomi. Plus Madara's words suggest that it was the same genjutsu that he used again.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Really? I don't think so. Sasuke has a built in genjutsu hax known as Tsukuyomi..one of the if not the most powerful genjutsus. Yet, Danzo easily broke out of it. Seems like Sasuke really really sucks with it, eh? Bee got out of it because of his tailed beast partner.

IMO, the greatest Genjutsu feat, thus far, is Oros against Sasuke and Sakura, in the woods. He didn't even move his hands he just looked. That's more genjutsu talent than Itachi. Agreed? (Itachi can just flick his fingers...but Oro doesn't have to even do that.)

Sasuke's Tsukuyomi isn't anything special, relatively speaking. It's powerful, but so far, we haven't seen its effects. Also, with a regular Sharingan genjutsu, he was able to beat another genjutsu/sensor/healing specialist. He's easily better than most genjutsu specialists in the manga.
Alternatively, Danzou is simply experienced & good with genjutsu, and he has experienced Itachi's Tsukuyomi.
Plus you know, the first time Danzou realized that he was in a genjutsu, since he saw Itachi. He couldn't realize it the second time, as he ended up checking his arm after the genjutsu and assumed that the last eye was open.

Except that isn't even a genjutsu as per Sasuke's words. Hell, it isn't even a jutsu as it doesn't even appear in any of the databooks. It's pure killing intent/fear, which Sasuke realizes and Orochimaru later confirms.
http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-47-page-9.html
http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-47-page-12.html

So no, Orochimaru does not have the greatest genjutsu feat.
What is one of the greatest feats however, is Sasuke breaking out of Tsukuyomi. 313

Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree. It indicates that Danzo is not very smart and his planned poorly. Also, Danzo very much is steeped in assassinating people. He's Root's leader. Bingo book...

And his plans for "konoha" were ruling it in a way he thought best (compared to those "senju dogs".)

Assassinating people isn't his top priority. The safety and future of Konoha is, which includes assassination. Also, he actually plans for such assassination. If it weren't for Sai's change in heart, Sasuke could have been eliminated (of course, Sai was too weak to kill him anyway, so the plan was destined to fail from the start, due to Sai's own faults)

He achieves/works towards that goal via very questionable plans, and to that end, he's branded each and every member with a cursed seal in order to keep his secrets safe.

Originally posted by dadudemon

"Sasuke turning on Oro right at the end there before he took over Sasuke's body? He actually fully planned on that happening and would have completely succeeded if Sasuke hadn't PIS'd his way into...get this....TAKING OVER OROCHIMARU'S ON MOTHER ****in' UNIVERSE! :laugh. That was probably the biggest Sasuke PIS moment in the series, thus far..."

You can try and down-play that as much as you want, but it won't fly. Oro DID plan on it and knew that it would happen from Sasuke for quite some time. He did not plan on Sasuke "magically" taking over his own universe. I have no idea how that is even logical, but it happened because of Sasuke's magical Sharingan (which wasn't even an MS, yet.)

Kabuto attributes that to willpower hax, not Sharingan hax.

EDIT: Wait, looks like it was a combination of both.
http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-346-page-6.html

Originally posted by psycho gundam
31

Not as much as A, who lost his left arm trying to kill a teenager, while said teenager walked away from the fight smiling. 131

Originally posted by Q99
I think the fact he was inside a *paper* tree speaks to that 🙂 Going Fox again may have been his only chance.

While done effortlessly, that was a pretty easy one to break out of.

The finger flick one was so tricky that even Naruto doing the genjutsu release thing didn't work.

Not a genjutsu.
http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-47-page-9.html
http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-47-page-12.html

Yes, I know it seems stupid, but it hasn't been retconned anyway.

Originally posted by dadudemon
And so was I. That was a major plan of his: become Hokage and get rid of Hashirama's ways.

Circles: we haz them, nao.

Originally posted by dadudemon
But it's not about Sasuke being smart, it's about Danzo being arrogant/stupid/failure.

If I had a tech like that, I'd have a signal go off that only I could tell when it was getting used up (like an earpiece..and they already have those in the manga). Magical wishing eyeballs are pretty dang hax. I have a hard time seeing how someone could lose with some many dang wishes, by Danzo figured out a way, man. HE FIGURED OUT A WAY TO LOSE WHEN HE HAD WISHES!

Originally posted by dadudemon
Based on that, I'd say that Danzo is an A-Class. Poor planner, stolen techs, and well above average speed (he could keep up with Sasuke).

Originally posted by dadudemon
Uh...yeah, spot on. You understand my point perfectly and even took it a step further. 😐

You d*mn smart bastard! 😠 Stop stealin' my thunda!

Originally posted by dadudemon
Really? I thought Itachi turned around, busted out Tsukuyomi, and then cut off Oro's hand before Oro could even start the thing? That was a different than what was up with Sasuke. Sasuke did not have MS, at the time, and Sasuke had the cursed seal (so he could control Sasuke.) So even if he did fail, he could just control Sasuke. Even if the control didn't work, he still had the revival via the cursed seal left to live. (I feel like I've stated this before.)

I tried to find it and could not. I thought he got him with Tsu?

Which chapter? If you find it, you will win this point and I will admit fault! 😆

http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-345-page-8.html
http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-345-page-9.html
http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-345-page-10.html

Also, i'd just like to point out there was some serious PIS at work in Danzo's fight as well. Each eye is supposed to last 60 seconds for Izanagi, but even with the genjutsu notwithstanding, 3 eyes close in like a second a piece towards the end.

http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-479-page-13.html
http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-479-page-14.html
http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-479-page-15.html

I still don't understand how that fight went down.

Originally posted by King Kandy
He very nearly defeated a high, high S class. He is way beyond the average A class. Zabuza is an A class, pre-mangekyou Kakashi is an A class, Danzo is way stronger than they are.

The 'stolen' techs bit alone puts him in S Class as it includes Mokuton, Shisui's hax genjutsu & Izanagi.
Then he has decent speed, fuuton ninjutsu, a pretty good summon, & the ability to cast a sealing jutsu on someone with just a touch. Plus he managed to temporarily neutralize Susano'o, and were it not for Sasuke's quick thinking, he might have done some serious damage.

He's far beyond A Class, and well into S Class.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Also, i'd just like to point out there was some serious PIS at work in Danzo's fight as well. Each eye is supposed to last 60 seconds for Izanagi, but even with the genjutsu notwithstanding, 3 eyes close in like a second a piece towards the end.

http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-479-page-13.html
http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-479-page-14.html
http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-479-page-15.html

There's an undefined amount of time that passes after the 8th eye closes and 2 remain (the panel above Madara's head panel): http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-479-page-14.html, and it is proven here, as it shows Sasuke & Danzou in a CQC situation that had not occurred in the previous chapters: http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-480-page-6.html

Karin only counted one eye, and I think she falsely assumed that all the other eyes took 60 seconds to close as well.
Then there's also the fact that Danzou himself wasn't sure how much time it took each eye to close, which was why he kept checking his arm.

I didn't read anything you guys have said, but, why is Zabuza A-Class?

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I didn't read anything you guys have said, but, why is Zabuza A-Class?

Because he's a jonin strong enough to give Kakashi a fight, an incredible assassin, and attempted to take down a Kage and lived.

Demonic Phoenix
Then he has decent speed, fuuton ninjutsu, a pretty good summon, & the ability to cast a sealing jutsu on someone with just a touch. Plus he managed to temporarily neutralize Susano'o, and were it not for Sasuke's quick thinking, he might have done some serious damage.

And a thing I'll note on his air release, his vacuum blades were invisible when he used them against the assassins who attacked him, another nice bonus. They're pretty sweet jutsu.

The fact that his piecing of susano'o was done without the stolen jutsu puts him at darn impressive.

Good with an air sword too.

Not a genjutsu.
http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-47-page-9.html
http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-47-page-12.html

Yes, I know it seems stupid, but it hasn't been retconned anyway.

I keep forgetting that. It's gotta at least be a technique similar to genjutsu...

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I didn't read anything you guys have said, but, why is Zabuza A-Class?

Kakashi literally beat Zabuza down without looking at him, once he got serious.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Kakashi literally beat Zabuza down without looking at him, once he got serious.

Zabuza trapped him helplessly in the water prison before.

Riiight, when he had no sharingan on.

Hence, "When Kakashi got serious". 😐

d'aw wait, he did have it on.

If it was only direct combat, I'd give him an A-, but he's legendary-good for his sneaking/silent killing abilities.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Not as much as A, who lost his left arm trying to kill a teenager, while said teenager walked away from the fight smiling. 131

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Kakashi literally beat Zabuza down without looking at him, once he got serious.

Well considering that multiple characters in the show have continued to fight almost unaffected after having limbs blown off, I guess that just makes him a pussy then.

Unless you think getting bitten by dogs is < getting an arrow through your chest, for example. =D

Blaxican wins again. 131

Originally posted by Q99

And a thing I'll note on his air release, his vacuum blades were invisible when he used them against the assassins who attacked him, another nice bonus. They're pretty sweet jutsu.

The fact that his piecing of susano'o was done without the stolen jutsu puts him at darn impressive.

Good with an air sword too.

I guess they are invisible usually, but when powered up by the Baku's suction, they become visible?

Yep.
Also, he would beat easily beat A. awesome

Technically speaking, since he has Mokuton, he should also be able to use Water & Earth techs.

Originally posted by Q99
I keep forgetting that. It's gotta at least be a technique similar to genjutsu...

Perhaps.
Though Orochimaru has managed to make Kakashi experience the same fear without even looking at him, or making a hand-seal. I think it's just regular killing intent, but he's mastered it to an extreme degree.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
he would have been two paneled if suigetsu didn't save sasuke.....again

Raikage would have been one-paneled if Darui hadn't saved him, and would have bled to death if C hadn't saved him as well. kruemelmonsteryn0

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Well considering that multiple characters in the show have continued to fight almost unaffected after having limbs blown off, I guess that just makes him a pussy then.

Unless you think getting bitten by dogs is < getting an arrow through your chest, for example. =D

Blaxican wins again. 131

Not really sure what you are referring to. Neji? Neji was not fighting Kakashi. 😐

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Raikage would have been one-paneled if Darui hadn't saved him, and would have bled to death if C hadn't saved him as well. kruemelmonsteryn0

raikage had his raiton armour anyway, and we already saw he can just block the sword with it. he was also staring right at sasuke so he was not surprised at all. 😛

darui saved sasuke in actuality

but as for the confrontation, sasuke again was saved by his teammates jumping out to save his life without so much as a thank you, which was addressed by suigetsu and the cloud nin