Originally posted by Q99
One doesn't have to be the same speed as someone in order to be able to dodge them.
That's only true up to a certain point: Neji is superhumanly fast in both speed and reaction time, as is lee. I'd say Lee can run faster but Neji is every bit as fast if not faster at dodging, than Lee. Neji also appears to have faster reaction times.
Originally posted by Q99
Neji's one step down in speed,
I agree.
Originally posted by Q99
but he's more skilled at taijutsu and the gentle fist has a significant advantage that helps in defense- since it only requires a touch rather than the full might of a blow,
I agree here, as well.
Originally posted by Q99
he can keep his guard further out and not have to make himself vulnerable to strike. Neji has to poke while Lee's blows have to strike deep to hurt, an inherent advantage.
I agree here, too.
Originally posted by Q99
That, combined with skill, and the "speed to a side the enemy can't see" being useless, gives Neji the major defensive edge despite being a bit less quick.
Yeah.
Originally posted by Q99
We've never seen Lee and Neji fight when Lee's using full speed, so I doubt he'd be able to do a no-hitter by the point of the exams.---
Oh yea, and databook puts Neji's speed at into at 3, Lee's at 4. So there's that.
I agree that Neji is slightly slower than Lee, but we know for a fact that Lee got his sh*t owned by Neji, over and over and over again. It wasn't just barely losing: it was utter ownage and Neji rubbed it in. This is why Lee got so pissed about it.
And, yeah, the databook confirms what we agreed on: Neji is fast with Lee being slightly faster.
3rd Databook as Neji as 4.5 and Lee's also at 4.5. Gap closed. They are the same. I'm right. hahahahakjaf ;akjdfasjdf; lkajsd f;lkjasdfl; jasd;fl jkas;dfj j
ohhh man...I make myself laugh, sometimes.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Correction: Anyone fast enough that the Sharingan user's body cannot keep up, which is true for any other person. Sasuke getting pwned by Lee was due to his own body's limitations, not the Sharingan's. The fact that Sasuke could see everything while moving at the speed of Lee without his weights, means that he would also be able to see Lee while Lee was blitzing around without his weights. Plus Lee has reservations about moving at such speeds.
Also, anyone fast enough for the Sharingan is pretty much way too fast for anyone else if it comes down to a Taijutsu/CQC battle without incredible defenses involved.
I agree on everything except that last part: there are plenty of non-sharingan users that are "uber fast" even against MS sharingan users.
Additioanlly, your top point was already addresed. Sasuke could NOT keep up with Lee, with his Sharingan. His reliance on the predictability of the sharingan, itself, was failing him. This was in addition to his body not keeping up. It wasn't until his 3 tomoe adventure that his eyes got "boosted" enough to keep up with cloaked Naruto. Even then, he initially struggled to move his body fast enough...but his eyes could track Naruto that time.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Yeah, though the predictive factor is about the only thing that sets apart Three Tomoe from Two Tomoe. While it's arguable that the Three Tomoe further slows down fast moving objects
I agree.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Anyone with 'decent' speed? So far, only Raikage fits into that category then, because he's the only person who has been too fast for the Sharingan itself to follow. Everything else has been limited by the user's reactions and body responses.
I was going with Kakashi, Raikage, Naruto in 9-tails cloak mastery mode, Maybe sage mode, Guy in gates mode, B, and maybe someone else I am forgetting.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Not really. The only person to have perfectly memorized a tech on first sight, without the Sharingan, is Neji. Yes, there are limitations to it, but that is once again dependent on the user's stats, and not the Sharingan itself. Neither does the copying factor improve with Three Tomoe.
I'd say that Oro would easily be able to do that for any number of Jutsus: memorizing hand signs is not hard especially since there's an "unknown" logic to the hand sign orders for the jutsus that they produce. We know a little, but we do not know much...so even then, our geniuses of jutsus (3rd Hokage, Oro, even floaty mcmagic dusty grumpy pants) would probably only have to see some to most of the hand signs and automatically know how to complete the rest.) Evidence, you say? Kakashi vs. Zabuza. Kakashi was able to finish out a jutsu before Zabs...by simply predicting the land hand sign and finishing it out before Zabz. Kakashi is a jutsu master...but I would not put him even remotely close to Oro or the 3rd Hokage.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
It's not just the predictive ability, though it was a very good ability afforded to the users of the Three Tomoe Sharingan. It's the whole package that made them that strong. Even Uchiha without the Sharingan could be decent ninja, and they had combat aptitude.
Nah. Without the Sharingan, they'd be a crappy clan. You'd have a case for the Uzumki clan or the senju clan, but definitely not the Uchiha clan: without the sharingan, they would have easily been wiped out by powerful clans that didn't even have KG's like the Senju or the Uzumaki. In fact, the Uzumaki were so strong than during the great ninja wars, they were "ganged up on" and wiped out because of how powerful of ninja they were: small in number but a big enough threat to warrant genocide.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
The predictive ability only works against physical movements, and physical attacks like punches. Otherwise, a Three Tomoe Sharingan user would be nearly untouchable if the Sharingan predicted every single thing.
I wonder what this was about? I didn't say that it could predict everything. If it was just an aside comment, cool beans. If you are addressing something specific, quote it. If I didn't say something right and lead you to believe that I thought it could do something other than the physical precog, I was wrong and/or I apologize.
Neji's definitely caught up a lot post-timeskip... or in other words, now that he's a Jonin, his speed has reached what I'd call 'Jonin level' 🙂
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
And Eight Trigrams. They are Main House techs, and as a Branch member, he couldn't have been taught them.
He could've seen them on multiple occasions and taken a fair amount of practice to perfect them though.
Update!
Stats:
S+
Itachi Uchiha
Killerbee
Madara Uchiha (Sharingan only)
Minato Namikaze
Muu
Onoki
S
A (Raikage)
Danzo (with implant jutsu)
Deidara
Gaara (Kage)
Hiruzen Sarutobi (Old)
Jiraiya
Kakashi Hatake (Mastered Kamui)
Kakuzu
Kisame Hoshigaki (with Samehada)
Konan*
Mei Terumi
Orochimaru*
Sasori
Tsunade
S-
Chiyo
Danzo (without implant jutsu)
Darui
Ginkaku
Hidan
Kabuto* (Orochimaru merge)
Kakashi Hatake (pt. 2 start)
Kimimaro Kaguya (healthy)
Kinkaku
Kisame Hoshigaki (without Samehada)
Might Gai (pt. 2)
Sasuke Uchiha (pt. 2 start)
*These characters have jutsu that require specific preparation that can't be done mid combat but increase their ability significantly, such as Edo Tensei or readying unusual amounts of explosive tags.
A+
Asuma Sarutobi
Hiashi Hyuuga
Kabuto Yakushi
Kakashi Hatake (part 1)
Kimimaro Kaguya (sick)
Kitsuchi
Might Gai (pt. 1)
Yamato
Zabuza Momochi
A
Ao
Baki
C
Darui
Fū (ANBU)
Hizashi Hyuuga
Jūgo
Kankurō (with Sasori puppet)
Kurenai Yuhi
Kurotsuchi
Naruto Uzumaki (post elemental training)
Neji Hyuuga (pt 2)
Shikaku Nara
Suigetsu Hōzuki
Torune
A-
Chōjūrō
Chōza Akimichi
Gaara (Sasuke Retrieval)
Inoichi Yamanaka
Kakko (Kakashi Gaiden)
Naruto Uzumaki (start of pt 2)
Sai (post-emotions)
Shibi Aburame
Shizune
Temari (pt 2)
B+
Anko Mitarashi
Ibiki Morino
Kakashi Hatake (Kakashi Gaiden)
Kankurō (as of Sasori fight)
Naruto Uzumaki (One Tail)
Rock Lee (pt 2)
Sai (start)
Sakura Haruno (pt 2)
Sasuke Uchiha (VotE)
B
Gaara (Chuunin Exam)
Haku
Kankurō (Sasuke Retrieval)
Omoi
Sakon/Ukon
Shino Aburame (pt 2)
Shikamaru Nara (pt 2)
Taiseki (Kakashi Gaiden)
Temari (Sasuke Retrieval)
Tsume Inuzuka
B-
Aoba Yamashiro
Chōji Akimichi (pt 2)
Hayate Gekkō
Hinata Hyuuga (pt 2)
Ino Yamanaka (4th Shinobi War)
Jirōbō
Kiba Inazuka (pt 2)
Kidōmaru
Neji Hyuuga (Sasuke Retrieval)
Shin
Tayuya
C+
Ebisu
Ino Yamanaka (part 2)
Karin
Naruto Uzumaki (Post Rasengan Training)
Neji Hyuga (Chunin exam)
Temari (Chunin exam)
Rock Lee (Chunin exam)
Sasuke Uchiha (Chunin exam finals)
C
Dosu
Iruka
Izumo Kamizuki
Kankuro (Chunin exam)
Konohamaru Sarutobi (pt 2)
Kotetsu Hagane
Obito Uchiha (Sharingan)
Rin
Sasuke Uchiha (Sharingan)
Shino Aburame (Chunin exam)
C-
Kiba Inazuka (Chunin exam)
Kin
Mizuki
Naruto Uzumaki (Post clone jutsu)
Obito Uchiha (pre-Sharingan)
Sasuke Uchiha (pre-Sharingan)
Shigure
Tenten (Chunin exam)
Zaku
D+
Chōji Akimichi (Chunin exam)
Gōzu (Demon Brother)
Hinata Hyuga (pt 1)
Ino Yamanaka (Chunin exam)
Meizu (Demon Brother)
Oboro
D
Misumi Tsurugi
Sakura Haruno (Chunin exam)
Yoroi Akadō
D-
Sakura Haruno (Start)
E+
Naruto Uzumaki (pre-clone jutsu)
E-
Konohamaru Sarutobi (start)
---
Changes this time:
Muu and Onoki to S+
Darui, Ginkaku, and Kinkaku at S-
Kitsuchi and Zabuza to A+
4th World War Ino to B-
Sasuke's early versions at C- and C
Kabuto's teammates at D
Random things I note: Half of all S+ ninja have M names 🙂 Overall, K is the most common letter for S-ranked ninja names to start with.
I think you could add Sasuke Uchiha to the S- ranks.
You might even be able to add him to the S+, depending on what we see of his new eyes.
Additionally, Naruto should be S-, sage mode, at least. In Sage Mode, he's one of the physically most dominating people in the series: I think Raikage would be the only one that can claim faster speed, but Naruto is definitely stronger in Sage Mode.
What about adding and Ranking Naruto, there?
Edit - Wait a minute: haven't I asked you this, before?
Sasuke's already there at S-, though some more versions are probably warranted. One issue is his jutsu load and abilities changed pretty much every battle- I'm thinking Orochimaru Sasuke and Mangekyo with incomplete Susano'o are at S. Complete Susano'o might be S+ but he only really had it for five seconds.
Sage Naruto I haven't added so far because of the oddness of a high-power state that requires such vulnerable pre-charging.
Hm, should I add Kushina...? She hasn't exactly done a lot, but she's a matured Jinchuriki who knew the Menace Ball (Minato did copy rasengan off of her, after all) and who's chakra-chains are strong enough to restrain the Fox.
Originally posted by Q99
Sasuke's already there at S-, though some more versions are probably warranted. One issue is his jutsu load and abilities changed pretty much every battle- I'm thinking Orochimaru Sasuke and Mangekyo with incomplete Susano'o are at S. Complete Susano'o might be S+ but he only really had it for five seconds.Sage Naruto I haven't added so far because of the oddness of a high-power state that requires such vulnerable pre-charging.
Hm, should I add Kushina...? She hasn't exactly done a lot, but she's a matured Jinchuriki who knew the Menace Ball (Minato did copy rasengan off of her, after all) and who's chakra-chains are strong enough to restrain the Fox.
Actually you shouldn't worry about differentiating incomplete and complete Susano'o. He does become stronger but not as strong as the ones in S+ in my opinion. So just put him in S with something like Sasuke Uchiha(Orochimaru/Mangekyou). Problem solved. 😛
Eh....while not exactly convenient in normal battles without prep, it's still helpful. And we do use him in Versus threads so you may as well. So just staple him in S.
Well....we don't know if he copied it from her, it's just highly likely. We don't know enough about her to give her a ranking at the moment. Since the anime is going to be showing her in a movie that will likely be the only real time we see her in battle. Not that it's canon but whatever. 😛
Originally posted by dadudemon
I agree on everything except that last part: there are plenty of non-sharingan users that are "uber fast" even against MS sharingan users.Additioanlly, your top point was already addresed. Sasuke could NOT keep up with Lee, with his Sharingan. His reliance on the predictability of the sharingan, itself, was failing him. This was in addition to his body not keeping up. It wasn't until his 3 tomoe adventure that his eyes got "boosted" enough to keep up with cloaked Naruto. Even then, he initially struggled to move his body fast enough...but his eyes could track Naruto that time.
No, what I meant was that if anyone can blitz a Sharingan user, they would be able to blitz others much easier...outside of people with insane reaction levels like the Raikage with his Raiton Shroud.
I don't quite follow what you mean by 'predictability of the Sharingan'. The Sharingan doesn't gain a predictive ability until Three Tomoe. The lower levels slow down fast moving objects, as does Three Tomoe, but to a lower extent. Sasuke mentions that his eyes couldn't deduce whether Lee was using genjutsu or ninjutsu (as he was using 'simple' Taijutsu), while Lee later states that even though his eyes could follow him, it was useless as his body could not keep up.
Again, the fact that Sasuke could react to attacks while moving at Lee's speed (Gaara fight), likely means that he would be able to follow and react to Lee's insane speed with two tomoe.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I was going with Kakashi, Raikage, Naruto in 9-tails cloak mastery mode, Maybe sage mode, Guy in gates mode, B, and maybe someone else I am forgetting.
Raikage only gets fast enough to blitz a Three Tomoe Sharingan user when he further amps his Raiton Shroud (going Super Saiyan as you once put it). At that point, he's likely the fastest ninja character in Naruto right now.
(Or were you talking about blitzing a Two Tomoe? In which case, anyone faster than One Tailed Naruto should be enough for Part 1 Sasuke.)
Originally posted by dadudemon
I'd say that Oro would easily be able to do that for any number of Jutsus: memorizing hand signs is not hard especially since there's an "unknown" logic to the hand sign orders for the jutsus that they produce. We know a little, but we do not know much...so even then, our geniuses of jutsus (3rd Hokage, Oro, even floaty mcmagic dusty grumpy pants) would probably only have to see some to most of the hand signs and automatically know how to complete the rest.) Evidence, you say? Kakashi vs. Zabuza. Kakashi was able to finish out a jutsu before Zabs...by simply predicting the land hand sign and finishing it out before Zabz. Kakashi is a jutsu master...but I would not put him even remotely close to Oro or the 3rd Hokage.
Yeah, and he 'predicted' the hand signs for Zabuza's tech thanks to the abilities of his Sharingan and not due to some hand sign logic...
http://manga.bleachexile.com/naruto-chapter-26-page-15.html
In other words, he likely knew the jutsu beforehand.
That isn't something the others can do. Not at first glimpse anyway.
They can certainly copy jutsu, but they'll have to see it a few times.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Nah. Without the Sharingan, they'd be a crappy clan. You'd have a case for the Uzumki clan or the senju clan, but definitely not the Uchiha clan: without the sharingan, they would have easily been wiped out by powerful clans that didn't even have KG's like the Senju or the Uzumaki. In fact, the Uzumaki were so strong than during the great ninja wars, they were "ganged up on" and wiped out because of how powerful of ninja they were: small in number but a big enough threat to warrant genocide.
The Senju or the Uzumaki may not have KG's per se, but they have genetic traits/inheritances that make them that powerful.
Also, the Uchiha w/o the Sharingan would far from top tier, but they'd still be decent ninja thanks to their powerful chakra and jutsu.
Take away whatever it is the Senju inherited from the Sage that gives them their strength (Will of Fire?), and they'd be lower tier too.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I wonder what this was about? I didn't say that it could predict everything. If it was just an aside comment, cool beans. If you are addressing something specific, quote it. If I didn't say something right and lead you to believe that I thought it could do something other than the physical precog, I was wrong and/or I apologize.
Yeah, just an aside comment. Being able to predict every attack would have made it more hax than the Rinn'egan awesome
Originally posted by Q99
Sasuke's already there at S-, though some more versions are probably warranted. One issue is his jutsu load and abilities changed pretty much every battle- I'm thinking Orochimaru Sasuke and Mangekyo with incomplete Susano'o are at S. Complete Susano'o might be S+ but he only really had it for five seconds.Sage Naruto I haven't added so far because of the oddness of a high-power state that requires such vulnerable pre-charging.
Hm, should I add Kushina...? She hasn't exactly done a lot, but she's a matured Jinchuriki who knew the Menace Ball (Minato did copy rasengan off of her, after all) and who's chakra-chains are strong enough to restrain the Fox.
S- is for Start of Part 2 Sasuke though. Sasuke with Orochimaru absorbed (or Hebi Sasuke) is a good deal stronger than that Sasuke, while Sasuke with the Mangekyou and completed Susano'o (or Taka Sasuke) is as well; though he lacks the Cursed Seal. Just as well, he would have been too uber had he had the CS and MS.
EMS Sasuke is an unknown, though for plot related purposes, he'll be as powerful as Naruto is in his Kyuubi Chakra form.
We have too little info though, other than the fact that she knows high level Fuin Jutsu, is an Uzumaki, is resourceful, and has fairly good control over the Fox. Maybe S-?
~ Anyway, I think I'll come up with a tier listing of my own for S and beyond like you suggested, 🙂 but with a tad more separation between the characters.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Actually you shouldn't worry about differentiating incomplete and complete Susano'o. He does become stronger but not as strong as the ones in S+ in my opinion. So just put him in S with something like Sasuke Uchiha(Orochimaru/Mangekyou). Problem solved. 😛Eh....while not exactly convenient in normal battles without prep, it's still helpful. And we do use him in Versus threads so you may as well. So just staple him in S.
Yea, sounds good.
Anyone else have input?
Demonic PhoenixThe Senju or the Uzumaki may not have KG's per se, but they have genetic traits/inheritances that make them that powerful.
Also, the Uchiha w/o the Sharingan would far from top tier, but they'd still be decent ninja thanks to their powerful chakra and jutsu.
Take away whatever it is the Senju inherited from the Sage that gives them their strength (Will of Fire?), and they'd be lower tier too.
Yes. It is worth remembering that Sasuke was number one in his class between fire jutsu, taijutsu and just generally being good at everything else.
The Sharingan makes them a super-tier clan, but sans that they're still probably in the league with most of the clans we know. They have strong fire chakra and excellent speed.
Originally posted by Q99
Yes. It is worth remembering that Sasuke was number one in his class between fire jutsu, taijutsu and just generally being good at everything else.The Sharingan makes them a super-tier clan, but sans that they're still probably in the league with most of the clans we know. They have strong fire chakra and excellent speed.
I think you're confusing "hard work" and the high level of expectation of the clan for "superior natural genetics." Take away their sharingan and they become middle of the road, at best.
I think the only thing they have going for them, genetically is MAYBE high levels of chakra, but even that is a guess that is probably not true: the only "good" ones we are aware of probably have naturally high levels of chakra: Madara, Sasuke, and Itachi. Two are from the same family so if it runs, genetically, to have high levels of chakra, then that easily explains the brothers. Since their father held the highest and most respeted "Uchiha-only" position, that's pretty much a good case for good genetics. Madara said himself that he himself had high levels of chakra. So we can probably assume that they really don't have high levels of chakra, genetically, as say, the Uzumaki or Senju clans.
Also, being top of your class really doesn't mean much when Ino was supposedly at the top, as well. (I talked about this with someone else and I can't remember if that was an anime only thing, or not.) Top of your class just means you're trying to impress your father as both Ino and Sasuke were trying to do.
Naruto was the very bottom and he is certainly stronger than everyone in all of Naruto except a very small group. So top of the class is not necessarily the best measure. Another example of the antithesis of the "top of your class" is Jiraiya. Obviously, one of the most powerful ninja in all of Naruto but certainly not even remotely close to the top of his class like Oro was.
Guessing at who were the tops of classes:
Oro
Itachi
Sasuke
Minato
Kakashi
Those are guesses. Oro and Sasuke are the only two we can be 100% sure on.
Edit - Nah, it looks like the Uchiha had naturally high levels of chakra, so I was wrong there.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I think you're confusing "hard work" and the high level of expectation of the clan for "superior natural genetics." Take away their sharingan and they become middle of the road, at best.I think the only thing they have going for them, genetically is MAYBE high levels of chakra, but even that is a guess that is probably not true: the only "good" ones we are aware of probably have naturally high levels of chakra: Madara, Sasuke, and Itachi. Two are from the same family so if it runs, genetically, to have high levels of chakra, then that easily explains the brothers. Since their father held the highest and most respeted "Uchiha-only" position, that's pretty much a good case for good genetics. Madara said himself that he himself had high levels of chakra. So we can probably assume that they really don't have high levels of chakra, genetically, as say, the Uzumaki or Senju clans.
Also, being top of your class really doesn't mean much when Ino was supposedly at the top, as well. (I talked about this with someone else and I can't remember if that was an anime only thing, or not.) Top of your class just means you're trying to impress your father as both Ino and Sasuke were trying to do.
Naruto was the very bottom and he is certainly stronger than everyone in all of Naruto except a very small group. So top of the class is not necessarily the best measure. Another example of the antithesis of the "top of your class" is Jiraiya. Obviously, one of the most powerful ninja in all of Naruto but certainly not even remotely close to the top of his class like Oro was.
Guessing at who were the tops of classes:
Oro
Itachi
Sasuke
Minato
KakashiThose are guesses. Oro and Sasuke are the only two we can be 100% sure on.
Sasuke without his sharingan was still stronger than the majority of his peers during the earlier stages of the manga. Only ones he might be weaker than is Shino and maybe Shikamaru and Kiba, which that's a large maybe.
Being top of class, while impressive, is actually just a title. After all the valedictorian of a high school is not always the smartest student. However, being top of class certainly indicates skill to a degree and Sasuke did show a lot of skill in comparison to his peers. And Naruto lucked out on discovering his perfect move which is what made him so skilled. That and having more chakra than all the others combined might help.
Those guesses are all S rank shinobi and considerably stronger than their peers.
dadudemon
So we can probably assume that they really don't have high levels of chakra, genetically, as say, the Uzumaki or Senju clans.
Uzumaki and Senju chakra is practically kekkei genkai level 🙂 Uchiha chakra is 'merely' fairly strong.
I'd say their physical abilities tended to quite impress as well. Sasuke was able to physically stop the demon brothers, and convince Kakashi to put down his book to fight.
Of course, there's more to how strong a clan is than chakra. Training mentality matters a lot, and the Uchiha seemed to be pretty good at making good ninja. The sharingan was their pride, but they trained their members up to the point where they could do well until their awakened it.
Also, being top of your class really doesn't mean much when Ino was supposedly at the top, as well. (I talked about this with someone else and I can't remember if that was an anime only thing, or not.) Top of your class just means you're trying to impress your father as both Ino and Sasuke were trying to do.
Ino could take over people's minds as a cadet.
Don't overlook how impressive that jutsu is. It was easily the best bit of ninjutsu any of the rookies knew until Naruto gained his shadow-clones.
Sasuke's easily the best combat ninja of the nine, but Ino is the best spy.