The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by dadudemon
Weeeeeeeellllll...Naruto DID have one of the strongest characters with him, the whole time.

Of the Sannin, I'd say the Jiraiya is the most powerful. Sure, Oro is the most versitile but in ninja combat, I'd say the Toad Sage is the most effective. Jiraiya was great at everything, really: seals, ninjutsu, taijutsu, speed, intelligence, endurance, etc.

He was almost peak ninja in all categories. IMO, he makes Danzo look like a wimp.

Naruto still let some of the fox loose even though he was still with Jiraiya. Kushina had even better chances to seal the fox back up than Naruto yet was still contained.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
In reference to the Kushina junk, I point back at that link I last posted. Any of you with the ability to spot subtlety will get what I mean.

Naruto sucks as far as skill goes. He did not beat Pain fair and square.

I guess we now have confirmed proof that neither Kushina nor Mito mastered it. However Kushina's flashback clashes with that though

"Skill!" That's the works I was looking for....Thanks!

Originally posted by Q99
I'll mention that I think any jinchuuriki of a high-tailed beast with reasonable control is probably going to be S+.

I still don't see how controlling Bijuu makes her S at all, though. It's a skill that is completely useless if there don't happen to be a bunch of Bijuu nearby.

I guess, perhaps, I'm misunderstanding the tiering system here? I was under the impression that placement depended on things such as versatility, damage output, endurance, intelligence and other factors that are important in a fight. If that's the case, then how does someone who has no combat feats and has shown no abilities combat related in the S-Rank area of skill?

Sometimes characters with a high power output ill be ranked higher.

That said, I still haven't seen anything that would make me put Kushina *that* high. But it's QT's list, not mine.

How is controlling the Bijuu a higher power output? Like, how would that ability protect her from being easily destroyed by Rock Lee in a fight, who is much lower ranked than her, if there are no Bijuu around?

I don't understand how this tier list works, or, rather, what it's supposed to establish.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
How is controlling the Bijuu a higher power output? Like, how would that ability protect her from being easily destroyed by Rock Lee in a fight, who is much lower ranked than her, if there are no Bijuu around?

I don't understand how this tier list works, or, rather, what it's supposed to establish.

If she can control it, she can likely use powerful attacks like the menacing ball. We are assuming this is her as a jinchuuriki. Even without that much control, she would still be dangerous if she had a certain degree of control. That said, I've not got proof she has any degree of control.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka

Yet the 6 and 7 tailed jinchuuriki were already extracted at the start of Part 2.

Keep in mind, every Jinchuuriki was attacked by *two* S-class ninja.

Six tail was done by team Pain and Konan. 7 tail, unknown, but is probably Pain & Konan or Itachi and Kisame.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I still don't see how controlling Bijuu makes her S at all, though. It's a skill that is completely useless if there don't happen to be a bunch of Bijuu nearby.

Control means stuff like biju transformations, menace ball, and that sort of thing. Using the biju's power. That's rather useful for stuff like blowing up villages and dozens of enemy ninja at a time and all that kind of thing.

Not control in the sense of Wood or Sharingan control on external biju, which I'm pretty sure she doesn't even have.

Are you assuming the chains are an anti-biju only ability? Because there's no indication of that.

I guess, perhaps, I'm misunderstanding the tiering system here? I was under the impression that placement depended on things such as versatility, damage output, endurance, intelligence and other factors that are important in a fight. If that's the case, then how does someone who has no combat feats and has shown no abilities combat related in the S-Rank area of skill?

...?

She physically restrained an S+ physical power house, the Kyuubi.

That's an S-class combat jutsu, aside from her almost certainly having stuff like menace ball too.

That's more power than a giant summon has.

TheAuraAngel

Even without that much control, she would still be dangerous if she had a certain degree of control. That said, I've not got proof she has any degree of control.

Remember that they added her chakra to Naruto's seal specifically because they thought it'd give him a better chance at controlling it, and she was selected in the first place because they felt her chakra would be exceptional for controlling it.

So she was picked for high control, and on her death they passed on a little of her power to grant Naruto more control.

That's generally a sign of a reasonably successful experiment in control.

Aaaaand, what is she supposed to do if there are no Bijuu around to control?

Originally posted by Q99
That's an S-class combat jutsu, aside from her almost certainly having stuff like menace ball too.

Remember that they added her chakra to Naruto's seal specifically because they thought it'd give him a better chance at controlling it, and she was selected in the first place because they felt her chakra would be exceptional for controlling it.

So she was picked for high control, and on her death they passed on a little of her power to grant Naruto more control.

That's generally a sign of a reasonably successful experiment in control.

Almost certainly based on what?

And what did she do? She chained down the Kyuubi so Naruto could pummel on it. Her chakra is meant to suppress the Kyuubi. Which is what she did. Suppressing=/=Controlling.

Picked for chakra. And passed on her chakra because well, two Uzumaki chakra's>1.

edit

Naruto contained the kyuubi almost right after he was born(In his own body) 😎 Yet he was still the lowest of the low in terms of techs and skill. So how does Kushina doing the same thing make her an S-class nin?

Its even been stated that only four people could control a biju. Even Yugito and Gaara weren't mentioned in that category and they knew how to envoke theirs willingly.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Naruto does get the technique's down though, at most it's usually a week or two. So something that would actually be kind of standard for jinjuruki is somehow impossible? Sasuke has an entirely different argument that can be discussed later.

Naruto sucks because he can't do menacing balls yet! There I said it.

From the whole flashback involving Kushina and Minato's past, she was sort of implied to be stronger than him....prior to being punked. And since Naruto ran around the land for 2 years straight w/o anyone worrying about him being captured, I assume trying to contain a matured biju user doesn't equate for Kushina not being well known by other nations.

Mito's case is more understandable to me anyway.

And somehow him getting the technique down doesn't demonstrate skill? These are high level techs. His level of natural talent is nowhere near guys like Sasuke or Neji, but he does have some natural talent, and he makes up for the gap with hard work, along with a bit of creativity. He also mastered Tajuu Kage Bunshin no Jutsu in a few hours, whereas previously, he couldn't make a regular Bunshin.

He is learning how to perform the Menacing Ball though, but it will be harder for him than it would be for a Jinchuurikii that could transform into the actual Beast, seeing as he has to add rotation to stabilize the ball. Rasengan is after all, the Tailed Beast Ball scaled down to Human level. It just so happens that Naruto can now use Tailed Beast Chakra to try and create his Rasengan, so he'll pretty much be using the Menacing Ball soon.
That said, yeah, I kind of agree with you in that he sucks seeing as he hasn't mastered it yet, especially when it's Rasengan. However, it is due to his Chakra Control, and Naruto doesn't exactly have good Chakra Control.

She supposedly does have more raw power at her disposal, while her knowledge of & skill with sealing jutsu surpasses Minato's, who himself has considerable knowledge and skills in said area. It doesn't mean however, that she could beat opponents he would lose to, or that she would beat opponents that he could beat.

Naruto always had someone watching him, be it Kakashi or Jiraiya. Kushina had also been captured at one point, so with a scare like that, it's possible the Village restricted her even more.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Naruto contained the kyuubi almost right after he was born(In his own body) 😎 Yet he was still the lowest of the low in terms of techs and skill. So how does Kushina doing the same thing make her an S-class nin?

Its even been stated that only four people could control a biju. Even Yugito and Gaara weren't mentioned in that category and they knew how to envoke theirs willingly.

It wasn't him controlling the Kyuubi, but Minato's seal. Yeah, like Aura said, suppressing does not equate to control, at least not in the context of which we are discussing.

'Fully' control a Bijuu.
Like you said, Yugito could transform into her Bijuu at will, which means her degree of control was greater than Naruto's, but she couldn't control it the way Bee could control the Hachibi.
Bee's pretty much the greatest Jinchuurikii we know of, aside from the Sage of the Six Paths. Yagura likely had an easier time than Bee since the Three Tails seems to merely be sentient, as opposed to the higher level ones that are sapient.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Weeeeeeeellllll...Naruto DID have one of the strongest characters with him, the whole time.

Of the Sannin, I'd say the Jiraiya is the most powerful. Sure, Oro is the most versitile but in ninja combat, I'd say the Toad Sage is the most effective. Jiraiya was great at everything, really: seals, ninjutsu, taijutsu, speed, intelligence, endurance, etc.

He was almost peak ninja in all categories. IMO, he makes Danzo look like a wimp.

IMO, Sage Mode is what could put Jiraiya over regular Orochimaru. Orochimaru too is great at everything. He has near-comparable durability to Sage Mode Jiraiya, in addition to actual regeneration. Hard to say how they compare when we take Orochimaru's Hydra Form into consideration. That said, if we do take into account Edo Tensei, Orochimaru is stronger. Jiraiya would have a very hard time with three Kage level opponents trying to do him in.

Physically, yeah, Danzo's a wimp compared to Jiraiya, much like Sasuke is now a wimp compared to Naruto. Danzou would still pwn Jiraiya though, if he could use Shisui's jutsu. Shit's hax.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
She supposedly does have more raw power at her disposal, while her knowledge of & skill with sealing jutsu surpasses Minato's, who himself has considerable knowledge and skills in said area. It doesn't mean however, that she could beat opponents he would lose to, or that she would beat opponents that he could beat.

Naruto always had someone watching him, be it Kakashi or Jiraiya. Kushina had also been captured at one point, so with a scare like that, it's possible the Village restricted her even more.

So Kushina has power, seals, and likes to fight with clones but is somehow lesser than Minato.

If Minato, the White Fang, or any sealing masters were with her she should of had no problem wandering about like Naruto right? Besides Naruto has risks of being captured as well yet nobody detained him until recently.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
It wasn't him controlling the Kyuubi, but Minato's seal. Yeah, like Aura said, suppressing does not equate to control, at least not in the context of which we are discussing.

'Fully' control a Bijuu.
Like you said, Yugito could transform into her Bijuu at will, which means her degree of control was greater than Naruto's, but she couldn't control it the way Bee could control the Hachibi.
Bee's pretty much the greatest Jinchuurikii we know of, aside from the Sage of the Six Paths. Yagura likely had an easier time than Bee since the Three Tails seems to merely be sentient, as opposed to the higher level ones that are sapient.

The first half of that post was a "joke post" if you didn't catch it!

Control....Fully Control...Same difference! What I was saying is that Gaara and Yugito aimed their transformations rather than controlling them; which is why they weren't called biju masters. Yugito had the Two-tailed BTW. 😛

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
So Konoha's sexist now?

You're just now realizing this? 😛

And it's not just Konoha...it's the entire Ninja world. 😆

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
As long as Minato or other high ranking nin were wacthing Kushina run wild in the Third Ninja War, I don't see why she wouldn't be able to go out an fight.

We were talking about Naruto going wild...in comparison to Kushina. But I actually did not care about Kushina, I was only commenting on the Naruto portion.

I agree: Minato was more than enough protection for Kushina.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I still don't see how controlling Bijuu makes her S at all, though. It's a skill that is completely useless if there don't happen to be a bunch of Bijuu nearby.

I guess, perhaps, I'm misunderstanding the tiering system here? I was under the impression that placement depended on things such as versatility, damage output, endurance, intelligence and other factors that are important in a fight. If that's the case, then how does someone who has no combat feats and has shown no abilities combat related in the S-Rank area of skill?

I think this is easy to answer:

Naruto in 4-tailed form was well more than even Oro could handle. It would take a very specific ninja in order to beat Naruto like Kisame (who can absorb extremely large quantities of chakra) or Yamoto (who could seal Naruto's form up to a certain point).

Intelligence, versatility, etc. Sure, all of those play a part...but there's a certain level of power that makes those others really useless to a certain point. One of those would be Naruto being almost indestructible to a "super legendary". You know?

In other words, there's a definitely a level in which a person can become so powerful and durable that versatility really doesn't matter anymore.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
IMO, Sage Mode is what could put Jiraiya over regular Orochimaru. Orochimaru too is great at everything. He has near-comparable durability to Sage Mode Jiraiya, in addition to actual regeneration. Hard to say how they compare when we take Orochimaru's Hydra Form into consideration. That said, if we do take into account Edo Tensei, Orochimaru is stronger. Jiraiya would have a very hard time with three Kage level opponents trying to do him in.

Physically, yeah, Danzo's a wimp compared to Jiraiya, much like Sasuke is now a wimp compared to Naruto. Danzou would still pwn Jiraiya though, if he could use Shisui's jutsu. Shit's hax.

I would say that Oro is, by far, more versitile than any other character in all of Naruto, including Kabuto. He just lacked the uber eye techs that would have put him over the top.

Also, 3 kage level opponents? I'm not too sure about that. I think he could have done better than Sarutobi. Granted, I do not think very many people could have done better than Sarutobi. My list would be less than 5 long. 🙂

I am also a Jiraiya fanboy. 😄

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Aaaaand, what is she supposed to do if there are no Bijuu around to control?

Two things. (1) Use the Biju inside of her. You know, the only one she can use the power of.

(2) Use her giant chains!

Again, I think you're getting her powers wrong. She doesn't control external biju. She has chakra noted for controlling biju hosted within her.

The giant chains ripped up the ground and created a barrier (similar to the barrier the whole sound 4 made working together) that kept Sarutobi out.

The chains are a physical jutsu. They aren't an 'affect biju chakra' jutsu.

Originally posted by Q99
The chains are a physical jutsu. They aren't an 'affect biju chakra' jutsu.

Which makes her one of the most powerful "barrier" users/creaters.

If Sarutobi gave up on trying to get in, it's serious business.

Which makes me think: how "strong" is that barrier? We can say for sure that Susano'o's mirror shield would definitely be stronger. What about Oro's ultimate defense?

Well, since she trapped the Kyuubi, full power, inside the barrier, we can say for sure that it's stronger than Oro's ultimate defense...making it the second or third strongest barrier in the series. Why? Naruto, 4-tails, wasted Oro's ultimate defense. That was stated to be uber and it is gigantic in side. Naruto blew right through that. Kushina's barrier would have to be able to stand up to the full powered Kyuubi blast in order to be useful in any feasible way when trapping the Kyuubi. It would be utterly retarded if the barrier did could not stand up to a full powered kyuubi blast...so it has to stand up to that to make any sense in her using it.

Side Effect - She's trapped inside of whatever she's trapped in there...at least until she dispells it.

I'll go out on a limb and say that only the Yato (sp?) mirror shield is stronger than her barrier. I will say that the sound four's shield is not stronger simply because it was not designed to keep full-powered Kyuubi blasts inside.

So how can anyone attack her beyond that Pain body that absorbs Ninjutsus? I do not see how anyone could get inside which makes her ultimate against just about everyone minus: itachi and Sasuke due to amateresu and MS genjutsu.

Chibaku tensei could swallow up the barrier inside of its own bigger barrier.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Chibaku tensei could swallow up the barrier inside of its own bigger barrier.

Yea, but that's Pain.

I'll also note- Jiraiya taught Naruto the 'unlock various tailed form' jutsu. It ended up getting more out of control than expected for Naruto, but he was an active ninja at her time. Heck, who'd he learn it from and why? There's a short list and they all were close with Kushina.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
For the sake of not making this difficult to read, I didn't copy your entire post. Naruto has some natural talent in the sense that he can master S-class techs period. He sucks because despite being overpower as he is right now, he can master a jutsu he pretty much learned already.

So Kushina has power, seals, and likes to fight with clones but is somehow lesser than Minato.

If Minato, the White Fang, or any sealing masters were with her she should of had no problem wandering about like Naruto right? Besides Naruto has risks of being captured as well yet nobody detained him until recently.

I pretty much agreed with this; that he sucks as he cannot master Rasengan in his new mode. However, that is likely due to his shitty chakra control, and his relative inexperience with actually controlling Bijuu chakra for a tech, so meh.

Well, Minato does have a pretty broken jutsu (FTG), is insanely fast even without said tech, and has very good reactions to boot. Plus he has great knowledge of space-time techs, one of which, pretty much renders any chakra blast moot. It would likely render moot other attacks as well, eg. Chibaku Tensei (via porting the Magnetic core).
I still think Minato > Kushina, but mostly because we don't know the full extent of Kushina's abilities.

Yeah, but he lived during a time of relative peace & stability, as opposed to Kushina, who lived during one of the Great Ninja Wars. Even then, it wasn't known widely known that he was a Jinchuurikii.
Besides, apparently, Kushina was already well-known for her unique style of ninjutsu, and her beauty, so this discussion may be moot.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
The first half of that post was a "joke post" if you didn't catch it!

Control....Fully Control...Same difference! What I was saying is that Gaara and Yugito aimed their transformations rather than controlling them; which is why they weren't called biju masters. Yugito had the Two-tailed BTW. 😛

Yeah, I didn't catch it >__>

I know she had the Niibi. 😛 I also know the names of the other known Jinchuurikii, and their respective Bijuu. uhuh Well, minus that dude who held the Hachibi before Bee.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I would say that Oro is, by far, more versitile than any other character in all of Naruto, including Kabuto. He just lacked the uber eye techs that would have put him over the top.

Also, 3 kage level opponents? I'm not too sure about that. I think he could have done better than Sarutobi. Granted, I do not think very many people could have done better than Sarutobi. My list would be less than 5 long. 🙂

I am also a Jiraiya fanboy. 😄

Yeah he's versatile, but comparing their base modes, I'd easily put Orochimaru > Jiraiya. Jiraiya's Sage Mode makes him > Base Orochimaru. Orochimaru's Hydra Technique is an unknown, so I'm not going to count it. However, if we include Edo Tensei, it puts Orochimaru > Jiraiya.

I too believe he could have done better in the fight, at least, as far as dealing with the two Hokages went. But if Orochimaru joined the fray, I doubt he'd walk out of the fight a victor. Orochimaru wanted Sarutobi to know what it was like facing his mentors, so he mostly kept out of it, until the end. He wouldn't do the same against Jiraiya.

Fanboi. ahah

Originally posted by dadudemon
Which makes me think: how "strong" is that barrier? We can say for sure that Susano'o's mirror shield would definitely be stronger. What about Oro's ultimate defense?

Well, since she trapped the Kyuubi, full power, inside the barrier, we can say for sure that it's stronger than Oro's ultimate defense...making it the second or third strongest barrier in the series. Why? Naruto, 4-tails, wasted Oro's ultimate defense. That was stated to be uber and it is gigantic in side. Naruto blew right through that. Kushina's barrier would have to be able to stand up to the full powered Kyuubi blast in order to be useful in any feasible way when trapping the Kyuubi. It would be utterly retarded if the barrier did could not stand up to a full powered kyuubi blast...so it has to stand up to that to make any sense in her using it.

Side Effect - She's trapped inside of whatever she's trapped in there...at least until she dispells it.

I'll go out on a limb and say that only the Yato (sp?) mirror shield is stronger than her barrier. I will say that the sound four's shield is not stronger simply because it was not designed to keep full-powered Kyuubi blasts inside.

So how can anyone attack her beyond that Pain body that absorbs Ninjutsus? I do not see how anyone could get inside which makes her ultimate against just about everyone minus: itachi and Sasuke due to amateresu and MS genjutsu.

Nah, she created the Chakra Chain Barrier with her, Minato, Naruto, & the restrained Kyuubi all inside it. Her CCB somehow standing up to the Kyuubi's Menacing Ball would be moot, seeing as the Menacing Ball explodes, and if the Chakra Chain Barrier stopped the Menacing Ball, the explosion would pretty much have vaped everything inside the barrier, Kyuubi excluded (perhaps).
So I don't think the CCB could stop Menacing Balls, as that is not what it was intended for.
I do, however, think that the Chakra Chains she used for restraining the Kyuubi could somehow restrict the Kyuubi from using Menacing Balls, seeing as the Kyuubi has never used one when chained up, whereas the attack is pretty much its go-to attack when pissed off. The chains pretty much restricted the Kyuubi to the point where it could only launch a physical attack after Kushina stared coughing. Hell, it looked like it couldn't even move prior to that.

What I'm saying is that Kushina would never have used that Barrier in the way she did, had the Kyuubi been able to use its Menacing Balls while restrained. She knows it can use the attack, and both Minato and she know how devastating the explosion is, so sealing themselves up in a barrier that would contain the explosion of the attack would be suicide.

EDIT: As for who else can get to her...Madara, Minato (seeing as the FTG seal is integrated into her Kyuubi seal)...I'll see if I can think of more 😛