The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Oh Christ people, this is just getting silly.

The idea attempting to be sold here suggests that Kushina, on the verge of freaking death, can produce a barrier capable of tanking the Menacing Ball from the fully powered Kyuubi.

Here's an idea that is less ridiculous: As we know, Kushina is an Uzumaki, and her chakra is well suited to [b]suppress the Kyuubi's chakra. How would the Kyuubi, while chained up and inside a barrier created by said chakra, be able to even begin summoning the chakra needed to perform the Menacing Ball?

That barrier, like Kushina herself, is lacking in the way of feats. I mean, tanking a punch from Hiruzen is impressive but really need more than that. [/B]

Originally posted by Q99
There's no indication it's like the Wood style jutsu, though, just that it'd make her an excellent jinchuuriki.

I like the "it was freaking tied down and couldn't properly do the jutsu like that," suggestion early. As soon as the chains loosened due to it shrinking from the Dead Demon Seal, even though it was overall much weaker and still have the chains on it, it attacked immediately. How tight the chains were seemed to be the only thing controlling it, and it never did something that resembled Yamato's suppression.

Disagree on Kushina. Wrestling the Kyuubi multiple times is very definite feats.

Agree on the barrier. We can deduce it's likely pretty strong but we lack specifics.

Her chakra suppresses the Kyuubi. The Kyuubi seemed incapable of doing anything. And I will point out that since the barrier and chains seemed present at the same time and were working together. When that whole dying thing caught up with her, the chains were thrown off but the fight had already reached it's climax and the 3rd was likely stunned by what had taken place to take action.

Originally posted by dadudemon
There's no idea "attempting" to be sold on either side.

It's pretty dang simple that a barrier designed to hold the kyuubi is a pretty dang strong barrier.

Additionally,
"on the verge of death" and she still has feats greater than almost all other Naruto characters. 🙂

Or special, which it was. And it seems pretty dang simple that a temporary barrier meant to likely give her time to say goodbye to her hubby might not be as strong as is being wanked.

Also, more on topic with the chapter, someone needs to smack some ****ing sense into Naruto. Little douche needs to let the cool characters actually take care of business.

Edit: Kandy is my favorite of all of you at the moment. Therefore he deserves a cookie.

*gives Kandy a cookie*

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Her chakra suppresses the Kyuubi. The Kyuubi seemed incapable of doing anything.

The Kyuubi was also physically tied up in a position where it couldn't do anything.

Also during the fight in the mindscape, it was pulling free despite being heavily chained, and Kushina used the terminology 'holding it down.'

Heck, when the chains were used in the mindscape, Naruto was still physically covered with fox chakra on the outside. The entire time. The hose wasn't turned off so to speak.

Assuming it prevents the fox from using chakra or otherwise acting seems quite the assumption, the way it's shown doesn't work anything like the two abilities we know which actually do do that.

If the 'Kushina is weak' opinion is based on the 'her chakra works like Wood' idea, I'm afraid I don't buy it in the slightest.

Originally posted by Q99
The Kyuubi was also physically tied up in a position where it couldn't do anything.

Also during the fight in the mindscape, it was pulling free despite being heavily chained, and Kushina used the terminology 'holding it down.'

Heck, when the chains were used in the mindscape, Naruto was still physically covered with fox chakra on the outside. The entire time. The hose wasn't turned off so to speak.

Assuming it prevents the fox from using chakra or otherwise acting seems quite the assumption, the way it's shown doesn't work anything like the two abilities we know which actually do do that.

So chains made from Kushina's chakra is shown capable to be holding the Kyuubi down? Impressive but it doesn't disprove anything. Considering chakra is used for moving and such, it likely reenforces her chains when used against something that is weak to her chakra.

And no, the hose was turned off. Does that stop Naruto from being wet?

Insinuating that Kushina, again while on the verge of death, is capable of producing bar none the most powerful barrier in the history of the show, is also quite the assumption.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Her chakra suppresses the Kyuubi. The Kyuubi seemed incapable of doing anything. And I will point out that since the barrier and chains seemed present at the same time and were working together. When that whole dying thing caught up with her, the chains were thrown off but the fight had already reached it's climax and the 3rd was likely stunned by what had taken place to take action.

Or special, which it was. And it seems pretty dang simple that a temporary barrier meant to likely give her time to say goodbye to her hubby might not be as strong as is being wanked.

Also, more on topic with the chapter, someone needs to smack some ****ing sense into Naruto. Little douche needs to let the cool characters actually take care of business.

Edit: Kandy is my favorite of all of you at the moment. Therefore he deserves a cookie.

*gives Kandy a cookie*

See it from my perspective: I find those ideas about Kushina's abilities being less than S class, quite retarded and biased. It's almost borderline asinine.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
So chains made from Kushina's chakra is shown capable to be holding the Kyuubi down?

Yes. And when he physically gains a little slack, he can move freely even when they're on him. He can also rip away some of them and be just partially restrained and even fight like that.

He never acts like his chakra is suppressed, and his responses to the chains are always entirely physical.

Impressive but it doesn't disprove anything. Considering chakra is used for moving and such, it likely reenforces her chains when used against something that is weak to her chakra.

You need to prove that Kushina's chakra does what you say, not just ask me to disprove your assumption. You're operating on an premise of how the chains work that doesn't seem to be shown at any point in the manga.

And no, the hose was turned off. Does that stop Naruto from being wet?

Biju shrouds are constantly maintained and made of pure chakra, so yes, yes it would. The shroud's a fountain, not just dampness.

When Kyuubi was actually sealed, the shroud instantly went away.

Insinuating that Kushina, again while on the verge of death, is capable of producing bar none the most powerful barrier in the history of the show, is also quite the assumption.

That one's not mine 🙂 I say merely being able to make a menace ball detonate against it is plenty. That alone means Konoha or other ninja won't be eating any stray blasts.

I think it's the only barrier we've ever seen made by an S-class nin (who's an Uzumaki, so even on her so-called 'last legs, we're talking crazy chakra), too.

Heck, if the chains 'suppressed' the chakra like you say, then why have the barrier at all? The Kyuubi'd be helpless in that case.

Originally posted by dadudemon
See it from my perspective: I find those ideas about Kushina's abilities being less than S class, quite retarded and biased. It's almost borderline asinine.

Cool. Good thing I am not saying that then. We do not know how powerful she is an the extent of her powers because she has nearly no showings at all.

Originally posted by Q99
Yes. And when he physically gains a little slack, he can move freely even when they're on him. He can also rip away some of them and be just partially restrained and even fight like that.

He never acts like his chakra is suppressed, and his responses to the chains are always entirely physical.

Why does he gain slack? Well, cause the dying thing caught up with her.

Let's assume you're right about them being merely physical chains that have no special chakra properties to them at all. What kept the Kyuubi from just moving? The chains come out of Kushina, who weighs a great deal less than the Kyuubi and was not in any position where physically holding it alone would stop it from rampaging.

Originally posted by Q99
You need to prove that Kushina's chakra does what you say, not just ask me to disprove your assumption. You're operating on an premise of how the chains work that doesn't seem to be shown at any point in the manga.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/naruto-chapter-500-page-5.html

Her chakra suppresses the Kyuubi. Does her chakra change when she is using a jutsu? No? Okay then.

Originally posted by Q99
Biju shrouds are constantly maintained and made of pure chakra, so yes, yes it would. The shroud's a fountain, not just dampness.

When Kyuubi was actually sealed, the shroud instantly went away.

Then one would assume that the shroud would get more developed the more chakra leaks out. Wait, it does. Why does it need to be maintained anyway?

Sealing the chakra and restraining it with a little bit of chakra is a bit different from one another.

Originally posted by Q99
That one's not mine 🙂 I say merely being able to make a menace ball detonate against it is plenty. That alone means Konoha or other ninja won't be eating any stray blasts.

I think it's the only barrier we've ever seen made by an S-class nin (who's an Uzumaki, so even on her so-called 'last legs, we're talking crazy chakra), too.

Heck, if the chains 'suppressed' the chakra like you say, then why have the barrier at all? The Kyuubi'd be helpless in that case.

When did that occur?

Nope.

Probably cause Minato told her to make one. And probably because the barrier is more effective to suppressing the chakra than just the chains alone. I'm guessing the chakra surpressing was weaker, what with her being half dead.

Originally posted by Q99
Heck, when the chains were used in the mindscape, Naruto was still physically covered with fox chakra on the outside. The entire time. The hose wasn't turned off so to speak.

Assuming it prevents the fox from using chakra or otherwise acting seems quite the assumption, the way it's shown doesn't work anything like the two abilities we know which actually do do that.

I'll point out that we've never seen the Kyuubi use the Menacing Ball when restrained. While restrained in Naruto's mind, it still retained some mobility (enough to rip some of the chains, and physically attack Naruto)

So some suppressing may be present, and Kushina outright states that her chakra suppresses the Kyuubi.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I addressed this point, already. We have no idea how long it would take the barrier to decay, but we know that Kushina was confident in it.

There would be more than enough time and "awesome" ninjas to take care of a trapped 9-tails. They seemed to do just fine without Kushina's special chakra before...

Eh? I don't know if I'm misunderstanding you (I hope I am), but if Kushina dies, the barrier goes down with her, as do the chakra chains. It won't last a while and then 'decay'. Barriers have to be constantly maintained.

Your point of the 'awesome' ninjas taking care of a trapped 9-Tails falls on its own head, considering no one else could get in while Minato sealed the Kyuubi.
They temporarily drove it out of the village, whereby it responded with a Menacing Ball, which would have annihilated the Village had Minato not come in. Hardly fine. Without sealing, they don't have a way to 'take care' of it.

Originally posted by dadudemon
It could have also detonated in the direction he fired it and not gotten explodedingle at all...just like Naruto 6-tails form did against Oro and his triple barriers. 🙂

There's also the problem of how durable even a 6-tails cloaked Naruto was: Oro's super sword couldn't even pierce Naruto's "flesh."

Would only be plausible if his target was a few kilometers away, which thanks to the barrier confining everything to a relatively far smaller area, won't apply. And the explosion would be immensely larger than the one made by 4 Tailed Kyuubi.
But yeah, that could have been what happened after Minato ported it.

6 Tailed Naruto was caught in the explosion of a Menacing Ball, and survived...as did Deva Path.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/naruto-chapter-438-page-8.html

Originally posted by dadudemon
The reason, and it's obvious, the Kyuubi didn't launch the menacing ball while chained down is the Kyuubi needs his tails to assist in the chakra focusing...just like every other time when the menacing ball was launched.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/naruto-chapter-438-page-7.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/naruto-chapter-503-page-10.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/naruto-chapter-499-page-14.html
😐

Only twice has the Kyuubi ever launched a Menacing Ball with help from its tails. Once when Naruto went 4 Tails, and the other was during Naruto's battle with the Kyuubi.

Coincidentally, both times involved it swallowing the ball.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That assessment is arbitrary, baseless, and actually wrong.

Kushina had enough "chakra' at near death to make a barrier and restrain full-chakra'd 9-tails in a more effective fashion than she did to a half powered 9-tails. The feats direclty contradict your idea that the feats show equal chakra.

Yes, and against 'Half-Chakra'd' 9 Tails, she used only her Chakra Chains, whereas against 'Full-Chakra'd' 9 Tails, she used BOTH her Chakra Chains, and the Barrier, which is derived from the Chains. So it wasn't exactly the same situation in both scenarios, and therefore, trying to compare them at face value in the way you did is illogical.

The reason I state that there was a relatively equal amount of chakra in play was due to the fact that Minato sealed the last of Kushina's chakra into Naruto. Kushina was already near-death, and didn't have much chakra to spare.
Right after Minato uses the Dead Demon Seal, the chains loosen a little, and the Kyuubi physically tries to attack Naruto. Afterwards, we see the Kyuubi fully restrained and the sealing takes place right after, so presumably, the rest of Kushina's chakra went into Naruto.

Another thing to consider: the battle was taking place inside Naruto's mind, where Bee/Hachibi was weaker than he normally would be. The same could easily have applied to Kushina i.e. her chakra was less effective than it would normally be.
Not that it could apply, but she actually states that her chakra wouldn't hold down the Kyuubi for very long.

So either the Barrier and the Chains working together completely immobilize the Kyuubi, or Kushina was weaker while inside Naruto's mind.

Originally posted by dadudemon
The barrier was never shown to stand up or not stand up to a menacing ball.

However, I find it rather retarded to assume that the barrier, which was built to contain the Kyuubi...which is the most powerful tailed beast, would not be able to stand up a menacing ball. That defeats the purpose of having a barrier that can hold the Kyuubi.

Indeed, which makes both our standpoints fairly baseless.

However, what you are using to justify your point is the idea that a barrier containing a completely IMMOBILIZED Kyuubi (via the Chains) should somehow be able to stand up to the Menacing Ball, or else it would be rendered ineffective (when it really isn't).

What I'm using to justify my point is the fact that the Kyuubi was pretty much turned into a strung up doll, and that it could not move, let alone use a Menacing Ball, when Kushina used her Chakra Chains and Chakra Chain Barrier.

Again, the barrier isn't the only thing containing the Kyuubi, like you seem to be assuming. Kushina's Chakra Chains were at work too, and are the things that actually restrain the Kyuubi.

Originally posted by dadudemon
See it from my perspective: I find those ideas about Kushina's abilities being less than S class, quite retarded and biased. It's almost borderline asinine.

She's most likely S class, and lack of feats aren't going to change that. If lack of feats prevent her from being S Class, then people like Mei & Muu definitely do not belong in S and S+ respectively (which could be the case). Mei's only showing had her pwning a Sasuke who was nearly out of chakra, while Muu has had no showings at all.

Whether she's high enough to be in S+ is another matter.

Muu has apparently the same thing as Onoki. Which indicates he could destroy the Turtle Island as well, which is the reason why Muu is so high. Or so I assume.

His stealthy skills are also cool and such.

He knows Dust-Release, but that's no indication he could use the tech that could have destroyed the Island Turtle. That said, it's also possible that Muu is an even greater user of Dust Release, so meh.

What's your defense for Mei (if you have one)? 😛

Tsunade's the one who IMO does not belong in S, at least for now.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Eh? I don't know if I'm misunderstanding you (I hope I am), but if Kushina dies, the barrier goes down with her, as do the chakra chains. It won't last a while and then 'decay'. Barriers have to be constantly maintained.

Your point of the 'awesome' ninjas taking care of a trapped 9-Tails falls on its own head, considering no one else could get in while Minato sealed the Kyuubi.
They temporarily drove it out of the village, whereby it responded with a Menacing Ball, which would have annihilated the Village had Minato not come in. Hardly fine. Without sealing, they don't have a way to 'take care' of it.

On the first part, you're absolutely right. I forgot about he chains being projected from Kushina's back.

On the second part: this is not even up for debate. The 9 tails can be trapped and sealed just like has been done in many other villages and their tailed beasts. If you feel to the contrary, please tell me on what grounds. Other than that, I just have what Bee told Naruto about the tailed bests: if the Konoha had no contingency plan for the 9-tails, which is the strongest of the tailed beast, they'd literally be the shittiest tailed-beast village.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Would only be plausible if his target was a few kilometers away, which thanks to the barrier confining everything to a relatively far smaller area, won't apply. And the explosion would be immensely larger than the one made by 4 Tailed Kyuubi.
But yeah, that could have been what happened after Minato ported it.

6 Tailed Naruto was caught in the explosion of a Menacing Ball, and survived...as did Deva Path.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/naruto-chapter-438-page-8.html

We're actually getting off track: this point does not matter, even a little. The Kyuubi could not fire his blast for reasons other than death, as we discussed between Q99 and I.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
http://manga.bleachexile.com/naruto-chapter-438-page-7.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/naruto-chapter-503-page-10.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/naruto-chapter-499-page-14.html
😐

Only twice has the Kyuubi ever launched a Menacing Ball with help from its tails. Once when Naruto went 4 Tails, and the other was during Naruto's battle with the Kyuubi.

Coincidentally, both times involved it swallowing the ball.

Oh, there's more than just one single reason that I've proposed, for sure.

Here's some more reasons:

He has to rear his head.

He has to hold his mouth open.

He has to be up on his front "paws" and be still at the same time.

His eyes have to be open.

His head cannot be near the ground or he misfires.

Etc. etc. etc.

You can come up for as many rebuttals as you want, but the fact that his head was on the ground is different than any other situation making it impossible to launch his menacing ball.

So why didn't he just launch one when he finally got that right arm free?

Good question. Why DIDN'T he do that? That's just a shit load of PIS, IMO.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Yes, and against 'Half-Chakra'd' 9 Tails, she used only her Chakra Chains, whereas against 'Full-Chakra'd' 9 Tails, she used BOTH her Chakra Chains, and the Barrier, which is derived from the Chains. So it wasn't exactly the same situation in both scenarios, and therefore, trying to compare them at face value in the way you did is illogical.

Your point doesn't even remotely come close to addressing what I said. In fact, the only thing I can see is a subtle admission that I'm right: you even included the barrier for the "alive" Kushina. So you've just indirectly admitted that there's a major difference between the alive Kushina and the ghost of Kushina. There chakra comparison doesn't even come close.*

Regardless, we only see a direct logical comparison in the chains being used to hold down the beast. That's perfectly logical and you made an error in your original comparison. My point is still quite solid. There's a massive difference between alive Kushina and chakra spirit Kushina.

*What's worse, Kushina had to inject Naruto with some of her chakra after doing all of those other techs so that also contradicts your idea. She didn't come close to matching her alive state in "feats" in addition to her putting that very same chakra into Naruto for her to later use those same techs for that feat.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
The reason I state that there was a relatively equal amount of chakra in play was due to the fact that Minato sealed the last of Kushina's chakra into Naruto. Kushina was already near-death, and didn't have much chakra to spare.

Keep in mind that this is after Kushina already had "chain" feats that were superior to anything she did inside Naruto's mind. A significant difference for a supposedly "ultra weak" and dying Kushina. The Kushina in Naruto's mind doesn't even come slightly close to the near death Kushina in the real world.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Right after Minato uses the Dead Demon Seal, the chains loosen a little, and the Kyuubi physically tries to attack Naruto. Afterwards, we see the Kyuubi fully restrained and the sealing takes place right after, so presumably, the rest of Kushina's chakra went into Naruto.

For a supposedly dying Kushina, she certainly put out a lot of effort that greatly eclipsed anything she did in Naruto's mind. In order for Kushina's "mind" form to come close to her almost dying form in the real world, she would have to restrain a fully powered 9-tailed beast, erect a massive barrier, catch the 9-tails' claw with just her bare hands after it had been stabbed through her body, and still have time to inject just enough chakra into a seal that allows her to use her chains and talk to Naruto for as long as she did. Keep in mind that this would be after she gave birth and after she had the Kyuubi ripped from her body which killed everyone else.

We quite clearly see how long Kushina lasted in Naruto's head as she literally used up every last drop until she dissolved into nothingness.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Another thing to consider: the battle was taking place inside Naruto's mind, where Bee/Hachibi was weaker than he normally would be. The same could easily have applied to Kushina i.e. her chakra was less effective than it would normally be.
Not that it could apply, but she actually states that her chakra wouldn't hold down the Kyuubi for very long.

Since it wasn't stated or even implied...

Also, it wouldn't last that long because there was so very little of the actual chakra left for what was injected in Naruto.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
So either the Barrier and the Chains working together completely immobilize the Kyuubi, or Kushina was weaker while inside Naruto's mind.

The latter is extremely obvious just by feats alone. There was simply not enough chakra in Kushina to do anything but create a brief phantom.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Indeed, which makes both our standpoints fairly baseless.

However, what you are using to justify your point is the idea that a barrier containing a completely IMMOBILIZED Kyuubi (via the Chains) should somehow be able to stand up to the Menacing Ball, or else it would be rendered ineffective (when it really isn't).

What I'm using to justify my point is the fact that the Kyuubi was pretty much turned into a strung up doll, and that it could not move, let alone use a Menacing Ball, when Kushina used her Chakra Chains and Chakra Chain Barrier.

Again, the barrier isn't the only thing containing the Kyuubi, like you seem to be assuming. Kushina's Chakra Chains were at work too, and are the things that actually restrain the Kyuubi.

I will never ever ever ever say that the barrier was for something less than it was: the barrier was directly to contain the 9tails beast. Regardless of what spin you'd like to put on it, the barrier was not intended to hold Kushina or Minato in: it was for the 9-tails.

Again, I find it rather retarded to assume that the barrier, which was built to contain the Kyuubi...which is the most powerful tailed beast, would not be able to stand up a menacing ball. That defeats the purpose of having a barrier that can hold the Kyuubi. The Kyuubi quite clearly got free.

Originally posted by dadudemon
So why didn't he just launch one when he finally got that right arm free?

Good question. Why DIDN'T he do that? That's just a shit load of PIS, IMO.

I'm not entirely sure what incident you're referring too.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He knows Dust-Release, but that's no indication he could use the tech that could have destroyed the Island Turtle. That said, it's also possible that Muu is an even greater user of Dust Release, so meh.

What's your defense for Mei (if you have one)? 😛

Tsunade's the one who IMO does not belong in S, at least for now.

May have been a bit early to jump that far. I think most of it was due to his rank.

Rank is my defense for Mei. awesome

And she actually does have some pretty hax techniques when you think of it. Just not so much in the way of feats. Hopefully Zetsu and her will get to fight soon.

Tsunade does have rank but I am inclined to agree. S- does seem more her territory.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Cool. Good thing I am not saying that then. We do not know how powerful she is an the extent of her powers because she has nearly no showings at all.

We have multiple showings against an S+ class biju.

You don't need a lot of fights when they're all against a city-destroying monstrosity.

Why does he gain slack? Well, cause the dying thing caught up with her.

No, because he physically shrunk in size due to Minato's seal.

I.e. becoming *weaker* and losing half it's strength set him free.

Does that make any sense at all with a suppression jutsu?

Let's assume you're right about them being merely physical chains that have no special chakra properties to them at all. What kept the Kyuubi from just moving? The chains come out of Kushina, who weighs a great deal less than the Kyuubi and was not in any position where physically holding it alone would stop it from rampaging.

They were tied to the ground at many points for one thing. Kushina sent them through the ground, then up around the Kyuubi.

Yamato's wood- and not his suppression jutsu which clearly acts different, just the physical wood- did the same thing to 4-tails.

Her chakra suppresses the Kyuubi. Does her chakra change when she is using a jutsu? No? Okay then.

Wood chakra suppresses the Kyuubi. Does mere contact with wood jutsu make it lose strength? No.

It requires a specific jutsu using wood that has clearly different visual effects to suppress it. No such visual effect is present from the chains or barrier.

Suppressing Kyuubi inside her body will not make chains- which have shown no visible sign of chakra suppression like any of the suppression jutsu we've seen, which are multiple- give a suppression effect.

You're reaching here to write off her feats.

Then one would assume that the shroud would get more developed the more chakra leaks out. Wait, it does. Why does it need to be maintained anyway?

Because it's not a physical thing, it literally is just chakra coming out of his body, that also needs a large amount of Kyuubi's healing chakra to be survivable.

Stop supplying chakra to a lightning current sword or something similar, and it goes away almost immediately, stuff made of pure chakra doesn't hang around with no chakra to maintain it. The shroud is a similar thing to those jutsu, except Naruto's body specifically requires kyuubi chakra to function while it's up as well.

Sealing the chakra and restraining it with a little bit of chakra is a bit different from one another.

Exactly, it was physically restrained, it wasn't sealed or suppressed. When it's been suppressed, it always disappears immediately, as we've seen when Yamato does it.

I'm guessing the chakra surpressing was weaker, what with her being half dead.

You're still just assuming the chains suppress the chakra rather than physically restrain the Kyuubi.

Unless we've seen evidence otherwise, I see no reason to not take the ability at face value. There doesn't seem to be any signs of it acting in the manner you claim.

When Kyuubi loses chakra, it shrinks. When it's suppressed, it's shroud around Naruto goes away. The presence or lack thereof chains *only* affect it when they are physically tight around it.

Look, if we get evidence to the contrary we can change it, but right now those chains have been acting like physical ninjutsu.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He knows Dust-Release, but that's no indication he could use the tech that could have destroyed the Island Turtle. That said, it's also possible that Muu is an even greater user of Dust Release, so meh.

Didn't they directly say Onoki's cone blast could destroy the island?

And the other Kage said none of them but Onoki could beat Muu?

We don't have direct feats, but the fact that Raikage accepts that they're on a level above him, and Raikage's high in the S class, says a lot.

"The S class ninja say those two are S+," is our source there.

Tsunade's the one who IMO does not belong in S, at least for now.

Don't forget support techniques count into rating too as long as they can be done on the spot, Tsunade does have her Army-healing technique.

S- direct combat, +1 for uber healing and yin seal.

Originally posted by dadudemon
On the first part, you're absolutely right. I forgot about he chains being projected from Kushina's back.

On the second part: this is not even up for debate. The 9 tails can be trapped and sealed just like has been done in many other villages and their tailed beasts. If you feel to the contrary, please tell me on what grounds. Other than that, I just have what Bee told Naruto about the tailed bests: if the Konoha had no contingency plan for the 9-tails, which is the strongest of the tailed beast, they'd literally be the shittiest tailed-beast village.

I never did say they didn't have a way to deal with the 9 Tails. What I did say was that they weren't doing too well against the 9 Tails when Madara summoned it, and that without sealing, they cannot deal with it, which is what we were discussing. It also seemed like they didn't even have any counters to the Menacing Ball.

And Kushina using a barrier that keeps them out would mean they couldn't deal with it, not until it was free, or they actually could get inside the barrier.
Now if she only used the chains to restrain it, then yes, they could easily seal it up.

Originally posted by dadudemon
We're actually getting off track: this point does not matter, even a little. The Kyuubi could not fire his blast for reasons other than death, as we discussed between Q99 and I.

Naturally, and I even stated that it couldn't use its menacing balls while chained.

I don't even know how we got from the Kyuubi surviving the explosions of the Menacing Balls, to the 4 Tails.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Oh, there's more than just one single reason that I've proposed, for sure.

Here's some more reasons:

He has to rear his head.

He has to hold his mouth open.

He has to be up on his front "paws" and be still at the same time.

His eyes have to be open.

His head cannot be near the ground or he misfires.

Etc. etc. etc.

You can come up for as many rebuttals as you want, but the fact that his head was on the ground is different than any other situation making it impossible to launch his menacing ball.

So why didn't he just launch one when he finally got that right arm free?

Good question. Why DIDN'T he do that? That's just a shit load of PIS, IMO.

In other words, he couldn't actually use a Menacing Ball while restrained by the chains and the barrier, which is what I've been saying before. 😐

Even in Naruto's mind, he's never used a Menacing Ball while the chains were wrapped around him.

PIS? Maybe, but it could easily be that the chains have some factor that prevents the usage of a Menacing Ball. Even with the supposedly far weaker Kushina in Naruto's mind, the Nine Tails never really did use one while chained.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Your point doesn't even remotely come close to addressing what I said. In fact, the only thing I can see is a subtle admission that I'm right: you even included the barrier for the "alive" Kushina. So you've just indirectly admitted that there's a major difference between the alive Kushina and the ghost of Kushina. There chakra comparison doesn't even come close.*

Regardless, we only see a direct logical comparison in the chains being used to hold down the beast. That's perfectly logical and you made an error in your original comparison. My point is still quite solid. There's a massive difference between alive Kushina and chakra spirit Kushina.

*What's worse, Kushina had to inject Naruto with some of her chakra after doing all of those other techs so that also contradicts your idea. She didn't come close to matching her alive state in "feats" in addition to her putting that very same chakra into Naruto for her to later use those same techs for that feat.

My point was that since Kushina had enough chakra to restrain the Kyuubi right before her death and the sealing, she would have enough chakra to do the same in Naruto's mind, as the rest of her chakra was sealed as well.

However, I did fail to take into account that some of her chakra would go towards maintaining her form, so yeah.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Since it wasn't stated or even implied...

Also, it wouldn't last that long because there was so very little of the actual chakra left for what was injected in Naruto.

Neither was the idea that the barrier could somehow stand up to Menacing Balls, but that's neither here nor there.

Said amount of chakra being enough to sustain a jutsu that restrained the half-powered Kyuubi.

However, I did fail to take into account that some of her chakra would go towards maintaining her form, so yeah.

Originally posted by dadudemon
The latter is extremely obvious just by feats alone. There was simply not enough chakra in Kushina to do anything but create a brief phantom.

Even if the latter is obvious via feats, the former too should be obvious via feats alone.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I will never ever ever ever say that the barrier was for something less than it was: the barrier was directly to contain the 9tails beast. Regardless of what spin you'd like to put on it, the barrier was not intended to hold Kushina or Minato in: it was for the 9-tails.

Again, I find it rather retarded to assume that the barrier, which was built to contain the Kyuubi...which is the most powerful tailed beast, would not be able to stand up a menacing ball. That defeats the purpose of having a barrier that can hold the Kyuubi. The Kyuubi quite clearly got free.

And I find it rather retarded to assume that a barrier surrounding a completely restrained Nine Tails could somehow jump from standing up to a slap from Hiruzen Sarutobi, to completely standing up to a Menacing Ball. The Barrier standing up to Physical attacks from the Kyuubi is far more plausible than that.

Just because the barrier was put up to contain the Kyuubi doesn't mean it could stop any and all of the Kyuubi's attacks, not when the Kyuubi was unable to attack in the first place.

Nope, Kushina managed to get it restrained again. Otherwise, it could have easily moved its hand, and tossed them away.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/naruto-chapter-504-page-10.html

~ The way things are going, we'll just argue this in circles, and I really don't have the interest to keep this up, so meh.

Originally posted by Q99
Didn't they directly say Onoki's cone blast could destroy the island?

And the other Kage said none of them but Onoki could beat Muu?

We don't have direct feats, but the fact that Raikage accepts that they're on a level above him, and Raikage's high in the S class, says a lot.

"The S class ninja say those two are S+," is our source there.

Only Akatsuchi stated that.

Onoki is by far the most powerful Kage there, and the only one that knows Dust Release, so he naturally would be the only one to stand a chance.
Raikage's more mid-high in S class, than high.

Regardless, I only brought up Muu and Mei since they have little to no showings, much like Kushina.

Originally posted by Q99
Don't forget support techniques count into rating too as long as they can be done on the spot, Tsunade does have her Army-healing technique.

S- direct combat, +1 for uber healing and yin seal.

Which leaves her debilitated if all of the chakra is used up.

Though yes, I did forget about her support abilities, and the fact that she's the best Medic-nin in the series.

Originally posted by Q99

No, because he physically shrunk in size due to Minato's seal.

I.e. becoming *weaker* and losing half it's strength set him free.

Does that make any sense at all with a suppression jutsu?

It was Kushina coughing that caused the chains to slacken, but she tightened them up immediately after the Kyuubi's attack.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Only Akatsuchi stated that.

Still, Akatsuchi would know, and Onoki changed his attack as a result.

Onoki is by far the most powerful Kage there, and the only one that knows Dust Release, so he naturally would be the only one to stand a chance.
Raikage's more mid-high in S class, than high.

Regardless, I only brought up Muu and Mei since they have little to no showings, much like Kushina.

You only really need one fight to get rated though, or heck, showing the abilities regardless of circumstances.

And if a couple people agree on someone else's power, that's fine too, unless something more definitive contradicts.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I never did say they didn't have a way to deal with the 9 Tails. What I did say was that they weren't doing too well against the 9 Tails when Madara summoned it, and that without sealing, they cannot deal with it, which is what we were discussing. It also seemed like they didn't even have any counters to the Menacing Ball.

And Kushina using a barrier that keeps them out would mean they couldn't deal with it, not until it was free, or they actually could get inside the barrier.
Now if she only used the chains to restrain it, then yes, they could easily seal it up.

Naturally, and I even stated that it couldn't use its menacing balls while chained.

I don't even know how we got from the Kyuubi surviving the explosions of the Menacing Balls, to the 4 Tails.

In other words, he couldn't actually use a Menacing Ball while restrained by the chains and the barrier, which is what I've been saying before. 😐

Even in Naruto's mind, he's never used a Menacing Ball while the chains were wrapped around him.

PIS? Maybe, but it could easily be that the chains have some factor that prevents the usage of a Menacing Ball. Even with the supposedly far weaker Kushina in Naruto's mind, the Nine Tails never really did use one while chained.

My point was that since Kushina had enough chakra to restrain the Kyuubi right before her death and the sealing, she would have enough chakra to do the same in Naruto's mind, as the rest of her chakra was sealed as well.

However, I did fail to take into account that some of her chakra would go towards maintaining her form, so yeah.

Neither was the idea that the barrier could somehow stand up to Menacing Balls, but that's neither here nor there.

Said amount of chakra being enough to sustain a jutsu that restrained the half-powered Kyuubi.

However, I did fail to take into account that some of her chakra would go towards maintaining her form, so yeah.

Even if the latter is obvious via feats, the former too should be obvious via feats alone.

And I find it rather retarded to assume that a barrier surrounding a completely restrained Nine Tails could somehow jump from standing up to a slap from Hiruzen Sarutobi, to completely standing up to a Menacing Ball. The Barrier standing up to Physical attacks from the Kyuubi is far more plausible than that.

Just because the barrier was put up to contain the Kyuubi doesn't mean it could stop any and all of the Kyuubi's attacks, not when the Kyuubi was unable to attack in the first place.

Nope, Kushina managed to get it restrained again. Otherwise, it could have easily moved its hand, and tossed them away.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/naruto-chapter-504-page-10.html

~ The way things are going, we'll just argue this in circles, and I really don't have the interest to keep this up, so meh.

Kushina left a little of her chakra, because that's what Minato says they did:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/naruto-chapter-504-page-11.html

"I leave a little of my chakra, too." So I think that avenue of discussion is over. The Kushina in Naruto's mind isn't nearly as powerful as the near death Kushina we "saw".

The discussion of "death" was brought up by me and was fueled by someone saying that he would be caught in the blast. Then I countered that the 4-tails directed it, at almost point blank. But that doesn't matter since he can easily survive a bijuu blast.

Finally, the Fox broke free so the barrier was obviously supposed to be the tier 2 defense against the fox getting out. Sure, he got recaptured, again, with more chains, but that doesn't change the fact that he got free in his weaker, half chakra from. Obviously, the chains wouldn't be able to hold him for very long so the barrier was erected to hold him in. Bijuu blasts and physical attacks included. 🙂

So yeah, not gonna deal with you two today, as my grandmother as passed away and I don't particularly want to release my repressed emotions on QT via insults.

So cheerio chaps.