The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by Q99
That only has to do with the amount of power behind them with impact, which has other factors in play since it is telekinetically/magnetically controlled materials in the first place.

Or what I said. 😬

Originally posted by Q99
The fact they were launched at the same time and met half way means they were going the same speed.

Proving that they were launched at the same time is impossible.

Originally posted by Q99
The fact that they cancelled out even though Gold has more mass probably means Gaara put more chakra into it, used more sand, and/or simply that the extra momentum was enough to get some headway (where the two sand streams meet, they seem to 'explode' out a bit more towards Gaara than YK), but not enough to actually overcome that much sand and force Gaara had put in.

Baseless and does not fit with the chapter clearly saying it was the gold's density. So that's wrong.

Originally posted by Q99
If you look at the page, Gaara is sending a much wider stream of sand than YK is of gold. YK's steam is smoother and more direct too, while Gaara's wobbles a bit. So 'Gaara's sending more sand' seems likely.

Not only is that a stretch, it's wrong. They are fairly the same in pretty much every regard. You're also viewing the clash more form YK's side.

Quick question....If Edo Tensei zombie technically don't have blood then how was the 2nd Mizukage able to summon a Giant Clam.

On that note Muu should feel slightly ashamed that a friggin clam was one of the reasons he died.

Also Gaara's dad never got a name....oh well.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Or what I said. 😬

Proving that they were launched at the same time is impossible.

They were drawn in a way that suggests close launch times, not one launching well after the other.

Baseless and does not fit with the chapter clearly saying it was the gold's density. So that's wrong.

Nope. When they were talking about Gold's density, it was when Gaaradad used the gold mixed with sand to bring down the combined mix and trap the sand. They weren't talking about the impact point.

Not only is that a stretch, it's wrong. They are fairly the same in pretty much every regard. You're also viewing the clash more form YK's side.

On my screen, Gaara's stream is about a full inch across for about half it's length, while Gaaradad's is about half an inch for most of it's length and gets up to 3/4ths of an inch near the end.

I don't even understand what we are arguing about. 4th was never trying to overwhelm Gaara's sand, he was trying to mix his gold through to subvert Gaara's control. This is clearly stated so it seems reasonable he wasn't even trying to use equal force with his.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I don't even understand what we are arguing about. 4th was never trying to overwhelm Gaara's sand, he was trying to mix his gold through to subvert Gaara's control. This is clearly stated so it seems reasonable he wasn't even trying to use equal force with his.

An excellent point!

Originally posted by dadudemon
Wrong, that means that Yondaime Kazekage (YK, from now on) would have to have sent his sound out first and Gaara sent his out twice as fast (I'm not sure how much more dense gold sand is than quarts-like sand) in order for them to cancel out. Thus proving me right about Gaara being faster.

If he didn't do that, his sand would have been take over. We clearly saw something similar to that take place already. It's not over-complicated as that's the exact reason YK's sand "neutralized" Gaara's in the first place.

Half the speed, double the density. It could actually be closer to a third the speed, triple the density.

The way the panels are shown, in addition to the SFX, suggest that they launched their attacks at that instant, and together.

Nope. The reason his Gold neutralized Gaara's sand was because it mixed into the Sand, making it much harder for Gaara to manipulate it. He didn't slow the Sand's momentum by forcing his Gold to act as a wall to 'cancel out' Gaara's Sand Tsunami. He stopped it by making the Sand harder for Gaara to control.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree since it was quite clearly established that it was the density of the sand. Purity was never mentioned.

I meant impurity in the sense that the Gold dust mixed in with the Sand. Hence the word impurity in my sentence being in quotes. 😐

Originally posted by dadudemon
This is a strawman as it completely overlooks that fact that gold sand was called heavier and that was the explanation given.

Also, you'd still be wrong because he can plant himself by "gripping" a very large amount of earth. You think they climb on the trees by gripping, with chakra, just the bark? If they did that, they'd fall right off because the bark is too thin. They have to grip much deeper than that.

So it's easy to explain, especially because the earth "morphs" where his feet are, that he was gripping tons of earth with that walk on trees chakra technique...but just super duper that time.

The explanation given was that Gold was heavier, and that by putting it into the Sand, he could stop Gaara/Shukaku from manipulating Sand. You seem to be thinking that he stops the Sand by using his Gold dust to put up an equal and opposite amount of force and momentum.

I think you are pulling shit from thin air.
If you concentrate too much chakra into your feet while climbing a tree, your foot goes into the wood, cracking the bark, and leaving a nice small hole in the shape of your foot. There is no way that would happen if a lesser amount of chakra was being used to grip a much larger area than that of your foot.
In addition, if he were gripping close to a thousand tons of Earth by concentrating chakra on his feet, how do you explain Ma & Pa not moving from where they were standing when Naruto was hit? Were they gripping the thousand tonner Chakra scroll they were standing on with the super duper version of the tree walking chakra technique?
How do you explain Naruto completely stopping a moving giant snake while on a tree branch in the Forest of Death, with said tree branch being unaffected around Naruto's feet? The tree branch was 1000 tonnes?

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel

Spoiler:
Ah. Does it really matter? It's only meant to prove Karura loves her kid more than Kushina, but that isn't true.

The clam will destroy the world. And yeah, but Raiton armor seems his preferred technique at the moment.

I was confused too. Maybe he reasoned that Doton users were from Muu's village and he wanted revenge for the rude things Muu said? awesome

Eh...technically the databook says you're right about Itachi...but it's not like we saw much of it in action. And it's cute that you mentioned Kurenai. *pats head*

Yeah it does matter.

Probably because he wants them to stop him. He knows that there is no chance of that happening if he uses Black Lightningz awesome Alternatively, Kabuto is just being stupid again, not using the full strength of A Senior.

Nah, Muu is awesome. Plus it's likely just a translation error.
Fact is, those 4 Kages are the most interesting and awesome lot I've seen from those resurrected by Kabuto's ET.

Well, he did engage in a shuriken clash with Sasuke, and they both came off as much better than Tenten in terms of skill with Shuriken.
Plus when they first saw each other at the hideout, Itachi bested Sasuke in taijutsu, though you could attribute that to genjutsu I s'pose.
Meh, she's no match for Itachi or Sasuke when it comes to genjutsu, but she's still supposed to be Konoha's best Genjutsu Jonin. Second Databook says her skill with Genjutsu rivals that of Itachi's, though that is just BS.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
The way the panels are shown, in addition to the SFX, suggest that they launched their attacks at that instant, and together.

Nope. The reason his Gold neutralized Gaara's sand was because it mixed into the Sand, making it much harder for Gaara to manipulate it. He didn't slow the Sand's momentum by forcing his Gold to act as a wall to 'cancel out' Gaara's Sand Tsunami. He stopped it by making the Sand harder for Gaara to control.

While I agree with the first part, what actually occurs suggests otherwise. So what we think is happening is not really happening because Gaara launches his after YK's.

Incorrect: the sand types did not readily mix. In fact, we see them "splat" off of each other. So that theories out.

We actually know the reason: the gold sand is heavier so it neutralizes Gaara's sand's movement as long as YK keeps enough momentum.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I meant impurity in the sense that the Gold dust mixed in with the Sand. Hence the word impurity in my sentence being in quotes. 😐

I know this. The fact that your previous section, that I replied to, still contains this "impurity concept" does not change what I said.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
The explanation given was that Gold was heavier, and that by putting it into the Sand, he could stop Gaara/Shukaku from manipulating Sand. You seem to be thinking that he stops the Sand by using his Gold dust to put up an equal and opposite amount of force and momentum.

You're almost there with me.

He says it's heavier and dulled the movement of Gaara's sand.

So I'll agree that it's actually both of what we're saying. Mixing is not the reason: it's the density of the gold "dust" sand that nulls Gaara's sand's movement. it does not mix, readily, either...it's more bouncing off. Look at the panel, again. It seems to actually stop the sand almost completely like two balls in a classic momentum test in a highschool physics class.

The second time they clash, it all falls down as one big blob...but Gaara still has his sand rise from the "sand" and continue onward. So it's what I was saying and what YK was saying: it's a momentum stopper.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I think you are pulling shit from thin air.

I got it from your keyboard. uhuh

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
If you concentrate too much chakra into your feet while climbing a tree, your foot goes into the wood, cracking the bark, and leaving a nice small hole in the shape of your foot. There is no way that would happen if a lesser amount of chakra was being used to grip a much larger area than that of your foot.

The first part is actually a chakra control problem: concentrating too much into one area, instead of deeply into the tree and at the precise moment of contact, results in a failure, like you describe.

I see, now, why you said it's shit: the idea makes so much sense it makes your post that I replied to look like a newb post. estahuh

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
In addition, if he were gripping close to a thousand tons of Earth by concentrating chakra on his feet, how do you explain Ma & Pa not moving from where they were standing when Naruto was hit? Were they gripping the thousand tonner Chakra scroll they were standing on with the super duper version of the tree walking chakra technique?

Are you trying to prove my point because it makes perfect sense if that's exactly what they were doing.

I'm confused...it looks like you're supporting my position.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
How do you explain Naruto [b]completely stopping a moving giant snake while on a tree branch in the Forest of Death, with said tree branch being unaffected around Naruto's feet? The tree branch was 1000 tonnes? [/B]

That's quite easy to explain:

1. The tree was ginormously huge so it obviously had quite a bit of its own inertia.
2. Kishi doesn't think of every thing.
3. If Naruto was just "gripping" the surface, he would have slid right off with a chunk of bark attached to his feet.

So where do we stand? From what I can see, you've only supported my points. Why? Is this some secret "I agree with you" technique. hmm

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Yeah it does matter.

Probably because he wants them to stop him. He knows that there is no chance of that happening if he uses Black Lightningz awesome Alternatively, Kabuto is just being stupid again, not using the full strength of A Senior.

Nah, Muu is awesome. Plus it's likely just a translation error.
Fact is, those 4 Kages are the most interesting and awesome lot I've seen from those resurrected by Kabuto's ET.

Well, he did engage in a shuriken clash with Sasuke, and they both came off as much better than Tenten in terms of skill with Shuriken.
Plus when they first saw each other at the hideout, Itachi bested Sasuke in taijutsu, though you could attribute that to genjutsu I s'pose.
Meh, she's no match for Itachi or Sasuke when it comes to genjutsu, but she's still supposed to be Konoha's best Genjutsu Jonin. Second Databook says her skill with Genjutsu rivals that of Itachi's, though that is just BS.

Nah. Kushina is better.

Or it's easier to use than Black Lightning, which even Darui has only used like once.

I didn't say he wasn't. He is just rude and none of the other Kage like him for it. And those 4 Kage? You actually think Gaara's dad is that interesting? o.O

Eh, not really taijutsu oriented though. Just shuriken techniques, which isn't quite the same as hth combat. And yeah that was genjutsu.
Wait what? When was she stated to be Konoha's best genjutsu? And lol at her being Itachi's equal. The way people talk, Itachi was the best genjutsu user in history. Which is also bull considering 2nd Mizukage is obviously the best genjutsu user evar! awesome

Anyone else have opinions on where Gaaradad goes, in light of recent arguments?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Incorrect: the sand types did not readily mix. In fact, we see them "splat" off of each other. So that theories out.

Originally posted by King Kandy
It's not a "theory", it's what's actually stated in the manga.

He said, mix, for sure...but that's not what is stopped Gaara's sand as we clearly saw them splat. I consider it a difference in languages.

Just because they splat when the streams hit doesn't mean they don't mix/mixing wasn't the goal.

There's still no point that Gaaradad ever displays a speed problem with his gold.

He doesn't. He just lacks all the variety Gaara has shown with his sand. And ze auto defense.

Meh...the 4th Kazekage still comes off as a full S class, abeit a very low one, IMO for the sole fact that putting him in league with Hidan and Mifune just doens't seem right.....to me anyway.

With that said Gaara's dad still has stupid powers and as TheAuraAngel said really didn't have any variety with it.

Originally posted by Q99
Just because they splat when the streams hit doesn't mean they don't mix/mixing wasn't the goal.

I think the goal was fairly obvious: stop the advance of Gaara's tidal wave of sand.

Originally posted by Q99
There's still no point that Gaaradad ever displays a speed problem with his gold.

There's still no determinable speed being shown, either.

It moves but that's just about as much as we know.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I think the goal was fairly obvious: stop the advance of Gaara's tidal wave of sand.

And then weighing it down.

There's still no determinable speed being shown, either.

It moves but that's just about as much as we know.

Fast enough to block sand hail and keep up with Gaara's sand speed.

Personally, in order to call someone slow I need an active show of slowness in their abilities, not merely a lack of exceptional feats.

---

You know, we may be about to find out the answer to one of the biggest questions in the series:

What the heck was with cramming a crow down Naruto's throat?

And will Itachi be cramming any more crows down there?

Originally posted by Q99
And then weighing it down.

The first time, yes, the second time, no.

Originally posted by Q99
Fast enough to block sand hail and keep up with Gaara's sand speed.

Granted, he didn't have to send his gold sand as far so he didn't have to do it as fast.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

Originally posted by Q99
Personally, in order to call someone slow I need an active show of slowness in their abilities, not merely a lack of exceptional feats.

I can do this, too:

Personally, in order to call someone fast, I need an active show of fastness in their abilities, not merely a lack of exceptional feats.

Fastness? No.

Decent speed? yes.

Par for a Kage? Not that we can tell.

Current assessment of his leve: A-A+.

Originally posted by Q99
You know, we may be about to find out the answer to one of the biggest questions in the series:

What the heck was with cramming a crow down Naruto's throat?

And will Itachi be cramming any more crows down there?

Yes...we got the answer to the scroll thing Jiraiya and the toad talked about. So we should get that crow answer.

Originally posted by dadudemon

I can do this, too:

Personally, in order to call someone fast, I need an active show of fastness in their abilities, not merely a lack of exceptional feats.

From what we've seen, his jutsu speed is roughly on par with Gaara's consciously controlled jutsu.

He has not shown exceptional speed, but he has shown reasonable jutsu speed.

Fastness? No.

Decent speed? yes.

Par for a Kage? Not that we can tell.[/b]

Mm, as far as we can tell, it's approximately as on-par as Gaara.

And you're not only arguing non-exceptional speed, but arguing exceptional, non-shown or hinted at weakness in speed.

And the power of his jutsu? Higher than anyone in the As and almost anyone in S-, with more repeated usage too. Better defense too, he guarded not only himself but the two other kage from Gaara's attacks.

Current assessment of his leve: A-A+.

I still don't see where you're getting the A/A+ from, at least without using a standard that if we used consistently, we'd have to downgrade Gaara too.

What do you put Gaara at? Down in the As too?

Originally posted by dadudemon
He said, mix, for sure...but that's not what is stopped Gaara's sand as we clearly saw them splat. I consider it a difference in languages.

Originally posted by dadudemon
2. Kishi doesn't think of every thing.

Look, we can both admit that kishi is not the best artist in the world. Especially in a black and white format, depicting the gold mixed with sand would be difficult. I think we should error on his side in this case; he obviously intended mixing to be the mechanism, since he wrote the dialogue to present that mechanism. You're basically telling me that you are right, and kishi is wrong. But if kishi tells me that mixing makes a "splat" sound, hell, its his manga.

As far as I can tell, the gold dust is just as fast as the sand; rather, its the 4ths reaction time and multitasking that are lacking.