The Official Naruto series Thread

Started by Q991,600 pages
Originally posted by King Kandy
As far as I can tell, the gold dust is just as fast as the sand; rather, its the 4ths reaction time and multitasking that are lacking.

Even his reaction time isn't shown to be bad- the only two attacks that got him, also got both Raikage and Mizukage. Every attack that worked on him also worked on multiple other Kage (and Raikage apparently a fast one at that), so it's still within Kage level at least.

Multitasking, he both blocked Gaara's sand from hitting the three of them while also attacking Gaara back. He's not *as* good as Gaara (who was also doing a third thing), but he's no slouch.

Originally posted by King Kandy
As far as I can tell, the gold dust is just as fast as the sand; rather, its the 4ths reaction time and multitasking that are lacking.

Okay. I can agree to this.

Q99...do you want to meet here?

When I looked at this fight, it looked like purely a battle of skill to me. Maybe even with the weapons edge to the 4th because of his heavier gold dust. But Gaara just overwhelmed him with multi-pronged assaults that the 4th wasn't skilled enough to keep up with. Then because of the ground, all of them were trapped. It had everything to do with taking them unaware, not their speed.

Originally posted by King Kandy
When I looked at this fight, it looked like purely a battle of skill to me. Maybe even with the weapons edge to the 4th because of his heavier gold dust. But Gaara just overwhelmed him with multi-pronged assaults that the 4th wasn't skilled enough to keep up with. Then because of the ground, all of them were trapped. It had everything to do with taking them unaware, not their speed.

Gaara was also flying around/floating...which is a bit hax.

Yeah. Why didn't yondaime do that?

Maybe the multi-tasking thing, or maybe he didn't see much advantage in flying against Gaara, as their sand can attack air rather easily.

Originally posted by dadudemon
While I agree with the first part, what actually occurs suggests otherwise. So what we think is happening is not really happening because Gaara launches his after YK's.

Incorrect: the sand types did not readily mix. In fact, we see them "splat" off of each other. So that theories out.

We actually know the reason: the gold sand is heavier so it neutralizes Gaara's sand's movement as long as YK keeps enough momentum.

Except the Sand and the Gold dust did mix. That's what YK himself states as the reason for the halting of Gaara's Sand Tsunami.
And we only see them 'splat' off each other at the initial moment of contact. The Gold mixes in with the Sand immediately after that, which is what stopped the Sand Tsunami.

Nope. http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/46677395/16 They readily mix.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You're almost there with me.

He says it's heavier and dulled the movement of Gaara's sand.

So I'll agree that it's actually both of what we're saying. Mixing is not the reason: it's the density of the gold "dust" sand that nulls Gaara's sand's movement. it does not mix, readily, either...it's more bouncing off. Look at the panel, again. It seems to actually stop the sand almost completely like two balls in a classic momentum test in a highschool physics class.

The second time they clash, it all falls down as one big blob...but Gaara still has his sand rise from the "sand" and continue onward. So it's what I was saying and what YK was saying: it's a momentum stopper.

You missed out a crucial part of his statement; he said it was heavier, and that it dulled the movement of Gaara's sand by mixing it into Gaara's sand. Now, it's perfectly plausible that it slowed the momentum of Gaara's Sand Tsunami, seeing as they 'splatted' at the initial moment of contact, but after that, it was the mixing in that stopped the sand.

Nah, the second time they clashed like that, after the initial splat, the Sand and Gold then start to move around each other. The Sand and Gold never fall down.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I got it from your keyboard. uhuh

Have you already forgotten? It's your keyboard now. I've switched to a better version. 313

Originally posted by dadudemon
The first part is actually a chakra control problem: concentrating too much into one area, instead of deeply into the tree and at the precise moment of contact, results in a failure, like you describe.

I see, now, why you said it's shit: the idea makes so much sense it makes your post that I replied to look like a newb post. estahuh

Nope. They don't concentrate chakra deeply into the tree, but around their feet, and that is how the drawings portray it. If they concentrate chakra deeply into the tree it would act as a repellent type force. That's how they stand on water, by expelling chakra into the water to keep them afloat.

Nah. Your aptitude for shit-pulling from thin air just amazed me there, that's all. vin

Originally posted by dadudemon
Are you trying to prove my point because it makes perfect sense if that's exactly what they were doing.

I'm confused...it looks like you're supporting my position.

You actually think that the scroll on Naruto's back was over a thousand tonnes, and that the frogs were able to stay in place by gripping it? whathefuk
Mate, that's just retarded.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That's quite easy to explain:

1. The tree was ginormously huge so it obviously had quite a bit of its own inertia.
2. Kishi doesn't think of every thing.
3. If Naruto was just "gripping" the surface, he would have slid right off with a chunk of bark attached to his feet.

1. He was standing on a Tree branch, which certainly does not weight a hundred or so tonnes, and most certainly does not share the same inertia as the stem of the tree (in an earlier scene, one of the branches that the same snake easily broke, was hollow). I can move a tree branch far more easily than I can a tree stem that is holding said branch.
2. Precisely. In other words, Kishi does not always take into account the physical laws of our world, when he writes Naruto.
3. Even if he was gripping the whole branch (which is impossible, seeing as they only grip the area directly under their feet, as that is where they are focusing chakra), the branch would still have broken off, resulting in Naruto, Sasuke, & Sakura becoming mince meat.

Originally posted by dadudemon
So where do we stand? From what I can see, you've only supported my points. Why? Is this some secret "I agree with you" technique. hmm

Hardly. You've used some weird logic and assumptions to try and support your points in regards to the Chakra gripping discussion.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Nah. Kushina is better.

Or it's easier to use than Black Lightning, which even Darui has only used like once.

I didn't say he wasn't. He is just rude and none of the other Kage like him for it. And those 4 Kage? You actually think Gaara's dad is that interesting? o.O

Eh, not really taijutsu oriented though. Just shuriken techniques, which isn't quite the same as hth combat. And yeah that was genjutsu.
Wait what? When was she stated to be Konoha's best genjutsu? And lol at her being Itachi's equal. The way people talk, Itachi was the best genjutsu user in history. Which is also bull considering 2nd Mizukage is obviously the best genjutsu user evar! awesome

Sure, Kushina is much better at being useless to her child for 99.999% of its life. For that 0.001%, Karura is equal to Kushina. 😛

If he can use Raiton armor, then he has to have a boat-load of chakra. So it's not a question of chakra level.
Black Lightning was also said to be his, so I don't think he would have any trouble using those techs.

To some extent, yeah. He was beaten like Sasori was, so that was just laem.
Though it's mostly just their interactions with each other, and the other 3 Kages with the Long-Range division.

Shuriken techs are classified as taijutsu though. As for HtH skill, he was an ANBU member that used a sword, and he stopped Sasuke's Chidori with one hand. awesome
Plus he has the Three Tomoe Sharingan, so he should be able to see most of the HtH attacks made against him.
Can't recall, but I think it might have been a databook.
Itachi is the best genjutsu user in history, obviously. 2nd Mizukage was forgotten when Itachi came along. awesome

Originally posted by King Kandy
When I looked at this fight, it looked like purely a battle of skill to me. Maybe even with the weapons edge to the 4th because of his heavier gold dust. But Gaara just overwhelmed him with multi-pronged assaults that the 4th wasn't skilled enough to keep up with. Then because of the ground, all of them were trapped. It had everything to do with taking them unaware, not their speed.

Pretty much this. Gaara won not because he was faster, but because he was able to divert YK's attention to the Sand Hail coming from above, while he lifted the Sand they were standing on, to trap them.

That, and CIS on YK's part, who chose to attack Gaara instead of using his Gold to weigh down the Sand trapping him and the other two.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Yeah. Why didn't yondaime do that?

His gold is heavier, so he'd have more of an advantage staying below Gaara?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Except the Sand and the Gold dust did mix. That's what YK himself states as the reason for the halting of Gaara's Sand Tsunami.
And we only see them 'splat' off each other at the initial moment of contact. The Gold mixes in with the Sand immediately after that, which is what stopped the Sand Tsunami.

Nope. http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/46677395/16 They readily mix.

It's not that I disagree, it's just that Gaara's sand was literally stopped by the gold and that directly supports what I'm saying.

Sure, I'll agree that mixing it, after having stopped an advance, prevents further manipulation on a mass scale, but what actually stopped it was the heavier gold sand.

I believe we're arguing apples and oranges.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
You missed out a crucial part of his statement; he said it was heavier, and that it dulled the movement of Gaara's sand [b]by mixing it into Gaara's sand. Now, it's perfectly plausible that it slowed the momentum of Gaara's Sand Tsunami, seeing as they 'splatted' at the initial moment of contact, but after that, it was the mixing in that stopped the sand.

Nah, the second time they clashed like that, after the initial splat, the Sand and Gold then start to move around each other. The Sand and Gold never fall down. [/B]

Well..I still think you're almost on the same as I am, but just not quite. He literally stopped Gaara's sand in its "tracks" by being a denser sand. The initial clash shows a smaller amount of gold being used, which further supports my argument.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Have you already forgotten? It's your keyboard now. I've switched to a better version. 313

You...switched my keyboard out when I sleeping? And you didn't even bother to "mole est" me while I was sleeping? You're not good at being bad. uhuh

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Nope. They don't concentrate chakra deeply into the tree, but around their feet, and that is how the drawings portray it. If they concentrate chakra deeply into the tree it would act as a repellent type force. That's how they stand on water, by expelling chakra into the water to keep them afloat.

http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-18-page-10.html

I see that as using too much chakra causes the foot to be "sucked in" meaning the force of suction to the tree is so great that it causes it to break.

So I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Nah. Your aptitude for shit-pulling from thin air just amazed me there, that's all. vin

I learned it from you. uhuh

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
You actually think that the scroll on Naruto's back was over a thousand tonnes, and that the frogs were able to stay in place by gripping it? whathefuk
Mate, that's just retarded.

Wait...you think that ma and pa toad exerted thousands of tonnes of force on the scroll while using chakra sticking technqiues to the scroll?

When did they do that? I thought you were just referring to the "shock" of absorbing all that force so quickly.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
1. He was standing on a Tree branch, which certainly does not weight a hundred or so tonnes, and most certainly does not share the same inertia as the stem of the tree (in an earlier scene, one of the branches that the same snake easily broke, was hollow). I can move a tree branch far more easily than I can a tree stem that is holding said branch.
2. Precisely. In other words, Kishi does not always take into account the physical laws of our world, when he writes Naruto.
3. Even if he was gripping the whole branch (which is impossible, seeing as they only grip the area directly under their feet, as that is where they are focusing chakra), the branch would still have broken off, resulting in Naruto, Sasuke, & Sakura becoming mince meat.

1. A tree does not have to just stand up to the force with its own mass: it can also use its own "material" strength to withstand the blow.
2. Which is why the rhino crashing into Naruto created a crater before he threw it. Kishi didn't account for everything...but using your feet to grip a large amount of earth to prevent you from being driving into the ground like a nail certainly does help explain it.
3. I disagree with your impossible statement considering Sasuke pulled his foot through the bark suggesting that they are grippping the tree, bypassing the bark...which makes sense because the bark would just tear off if they just gripped that. Lastly, you say it would have just broken off but the branch was rather huge. Do you know how many tonnes of force is required to break a branch that huge?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Hardly. You've used some weird logic and assumptions to try and support your points in regards to the Chakra gripping discussion.

I'm not convinced.

Me? I've probably given too much credit to Kishi.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Yeah. Why didn't yondaime do that?

He, pfft, couldn't?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Sure, Kushina is much better at being useless to her child for 99.999% of its life. For that 0.001%, Karura is equal to Kushina. 😛

If he can use Raiton armor, then he has to have a boat-load of chakra. So it's not a question of chakra level.
Black Lightning was also said to be his, so I don't think he would have any trouble using those techs.

To some extent, yeah. He was beaten like Sasori was, so that was just laem.
Though it's mostly just their interactions with each other, and the other 3 Kages with the Long-Range division.

Shuriken techs are classified as taijutsu though. As for HtH skill, he was an ANBU member that used a sword, and he stopped Sasuke's Chidori with one hand. awesome
Plus he has the Three Tomoe Sharingan, so he should be able to see most of the HtH attacks made against him.
Can't recall, but I think it might have been a databook.
Itachi is the best genjutsu user in history, obviously. 2nd Mizukage was forgotten when Itachi came along. awesome

Kushina saved her child's life though so you don't have much of an argument. And really, which gave their kid something better? Auto defense or the most powerful source of chakra on earth? 😖hifty:

It isn't. But it may be a question of setup. See here.

Sasori had a legit reason for being beaten: Kabuto revived him without giving him anything to work with. YK was just beaten through pure skill.
It's 2nd Mizukage that is the best. You know you love his comedy.

Technically you're right, but it's the same as being really could at clone jutsu and having a nice ninjutsu score. Rather basic. And he stopped a gennin charging straight at him huh? 😛
Of course he was forgotten. Itachi used his genjutsu to make people forget so he wouldn't be compared to someone clearly better than him. awesome

So Aura, have arguments altered your thoughts on 4th Kazekage's ratings at all?

Kandy- would you like to weigh in?

Eh, not really. He has few showings and has mostly shown just really powerful techniques. Which is fine and all.

I suppose if A is still in S, I don't have a problem with YK being there.

does anyone understand what happened here with the sealing talismans? http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/73913037/15

At first I thought it was just Edo Tensei reacting to it. Narutopedia says that the Mizukage did something to stop it.

So I dunno.

Originally posted by dadudemon
It's not that I disagree, it's just that Gaara's sand was literally stopped by the gold and that directly supports what I'm saying.

Sure, I'll agree that mixing it, after having stopped an advance, prevents further manipulation on a mass scale, but what actually stopped it was the heavier gold sand.

I believe we're arguing apples and oranges.

Yes, but you believe that YK only used momentum to stop Gaara's Sand, when he directly states that he mixed his Gold Dust into the Sand Wave to stop it. So it's either both, or just the mixing.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You...switched my keyboard out when I sleeping? And you didn't even bother to "mole est" me while I was sleeping? You're not good at being bad. uhuh

Who says I didn't? flirt

Originally posted by dadudemon
http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-18-page-10.html

I see that as using too much chakra causes the foot to be "sucked in" meaning the force of suction to the tree is so great that it causes it to break.

So I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Kay. And this proves that chakra is sent 'deep into the tree' how exactly? It proves the opposite actually, that chakra is gathered around the foot.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v10/c090/11.html
The picture shows that chakra is only gathered around the foot, not sent deep into the tree to grip onto. When they discharge enough chakra from their foot, it creates a repellent force, enough to support their mass when they stand on water.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I learned it from you. uhuh

Then the student has far surpassed the master. 313

Originally posted by dadudemon
Wait...you think that ma and pa toad exerted thousands of tonnes of force on the scroll while using chakra sticking technqiues to the scroll?

When did they do that? I thought you were just referring to the "shock" of absorbing all that force so quickly.

I don't think that at all. Re-read my post. I asked you how they dealt with the momentum of the Rhino when it smashed into Naruto, if Naruto was the one gripping onto tonnes of earth by concentrating chakra deep into the Earth, while they were standing on a scroll that was hanging on Naruto's back.

Originally posted by dadudemon
1. A tree does not have to just stand up to the force with its own mass: it can also use its own "material" strength to withstand the blow.
2. Which is why the rhino crashing into Naruto created a crater before he threw it. Kishi didn't account for everything...but using your feet to grip a large amount of earth to prevent you from being driving into the ground like a nail certainly does help explain it.
3. I disagree with your impossible statement considering Sasuke pulled his foot through the bark suggesting that they are grippping the tree, bypassing the bark...which makes sense because the bark would just tear off if they just gripped that. Lastly, you say it would have just broken off but the branch was rather huge. Do you know how many tonnes of force is required to break a branch that huge?

1. Said tree branch being hollow, with many of them being easily broken by the same Snake in an earlier scene, throws your theory out the window.
2. Sure, if they could actually use their feet to grip a thousand tonnes of Earth, which we have no indication of.
3. A tail whip from a Giant Snake in Naruto-verse. Obviously the same snake charging head-first at a high speed towards a hollow branch has less force than a simple tail-whip.

Those two feats (stopping the Snake & the Rhino charge) were just meant to be strength feats, not feats with momentum and inertia taken into account. Happens quite a lot in fictional verses. I'm pretty sure that was the case here as well.

Originally posted by Q99
So Aura, have arguments altered your thoughts on 4th Kazekage's ratings at all?

Kandy- would you like to weigh in?


I see him as very average. He has a neat trick but that's about it. His stats seem solidly average. I'd say he's one of the lowest kages.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Kushina saved her child's life though so you don't have much of an argument. And really, which gave their kid something better? Auto defense or the most powerful source of chakra on earth? 😖hifty:

It isn't. But it may be a question of setup. See here.

Sasori had a legit reason for being beaten: Kabuto revived him without giving him anything to work with. YK was just beaten through pure skill.
It's 2nd Mizukage that is the best. You know you love his comedy.

Technically you're right, but it's the same as being really could at clone jutsu and having a nice ninjutsu score. Rather basic. And he stopped a gennin charging straight at him huh? 😛
Of course he was forgotten. Itachi used his genjutsu to make people forget so he wouldn't be compared to someone clearly better than him. awesome

So did Karura, on multiple occasions.vin
Karura gave auto-defense. Kushina helped Naruto out a little bit. She didn't hand the Kyuubi's chakra to him on a silver platter.
On the other hand, I can say that that 'Kushina' was really just Itachi's genjutsu crow in action. awesome

Maybe, but it's still Lightning. I think Black Lightning was just more powerful, more chakra intensive, and affected a much larger area.

Sasori didn't have anything to work with, but he was still defeated by Kankuro's words. facepalm YK gave up after Gaara finished crying and forgave him. Same difference.
I admit, he's the best of the lot.

Difference is that it takes limb movement speed and hand-eye co-ordination to pull off that Shuriken spam, whereas it takes chuunin-level skill to pull off a Clone tech.
The same genin that Gaara's Sand could not stop.

Nah, Itachi did not want to trap the entire World with genjutsu. Otherwise, Madara would have used him instead of the Moon. Ergo, people just forgot because Itachi was clearly far superior in genjutsu. awesome

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
At first I thought it was just Edo Tensei reacting to it. Narutopedia says that the Mizukage did something to stop it.

So I dunno.

Turned the Sand to Ice methinks.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I see him as very average. He has a neat trick but that's about it. His stats seem solidly average. I'd say he's one of the lowest kages.

I'd also like to add that Muu seems ridiculously powerful, especially now that he's immortal. Easily one of the strongest ninja we've seen.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
So did Karura, on multiple occasions.vin
Karura gave auto-defense. Kushina helped Naruto out a little bit. She didn't hand the Kyuubi's chakra to him on a silver platter.
On the other hand, I can say that that 'Kushina' was really just Itachi's genjutsu crow in action. awesome


Like Karura being the image of hatred towards Gaara is any better? Sure his dad is the one that told his uncle to make up the story but both her and his dad were representations of hatred towards Gaara.

Kushina did virtually gift-wrap the Kyuubi during his inner battle.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix

Sasori didn't have anything to work with, but he was still defeated by Kankuro's words. facepalm YK gave up after Gaara finished crying and forgave him. Same difference.
I admit, he's the best of the lot.

Nah, Itachi did not want to trap the entire World with genjutsu. Otherwise, Madara would have used him instead of the Moon. Ergo, people just forgot because Itachi was clearly far superior in genjutsu. awesome

Turned the Sand to Ice methinks.

The outcome would've been different if Sasori had something 😄. Meh....Dick Dad get's stupid defeat scene...at least he deserved it unlike Sasori.
No way Muu's A-hole behavior is by far superior to Ni-Mizukage's comedy.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I'd also like to add that Muu seems ridiculously powerful, especially now that he's immortal. Easily one of the strongest ninja we've seen.

All hail the particle disembling mummy that can turn invisible.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I'd also like to add that Muu seems ridiculously powerful, especially now that he's immortal. Easily one of the strongest ninja we've seen.

I dunno if he can regenerate when his molecules have been disintegrated.
That said, yeah, he's stupidly powerful. Army buster.

Anyway, Muu stated that Gaara had pretty much the same chakra as his dad (or rather, someone in the army, but Gaara seems to be the most obvious choice). Does this mean that Gaara is capable of using Magnet-Release, but has not been trained to do so?