Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
As for the asterisk thing, I too agree with you.
Alternatively, you could simply add a rank for Kabuto with ET zombies included, in which case, he'd easily be SS, even with just the 5 Akatsuki Zombies.Kabuto by himself on the other hand, has most if not all of Orochimaru's techs (though is not as good as he was), and he has a much better boss summon, with said summon having the best strength feat in the series, assuming Onoki's feat was not strength related.
Meh Kabuto's S+ at best IMO even with the Edo Tensei Zombies. It appears Orochimaru could've done the same thing Kabuto is doing aside from allowing free will. Plus he's pretty much a nerfed Orochimaru with a few perks that were better than the original.
Plus his job controlling Edo zombies has been shit so far.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
A Nagato that can barely walk, and lacks the Six Paths of Pain. Like that, Nagato is at best an S+. I say S+ because he still has all his abilities, and can use summons to get around his handicap, but he lacks the bodies and the 6-way vision.
He's immortal and could potential spam everything that the other bodies had. Plus his Preta powers would render ninjutsu useless and then there's Chibaku Tensei. Granted that he still has become pretty lame as an Edo zombie.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Otherwise, agreed (though I will not agree with the stats). She had sealing jutsu that were > Minato's, ninja techniques akin to Naruto's before he learned Sage Mode, and her chains could restrict something as strong as the Kyuubi, even when she was nearly dead.
Even if Kushina could not control the Kyuubi's powers the way the other two Jinchuurikii could, she could likely still use its chakra for stuff like healing, bijuu cloaks, and so on.
Meh...Kushina still sucks as far as jinchuruki's go. However her being able to restrict the Kyuubi is pretty cool along with the fact that she taught Minato stuff. Still not better than the Shiki Fuujin IMO.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Considering she apparently had a mode similar to Naruto's, which is better speed wise than A's, she could probably out run A. And outrunning A is basically the same as beating him.
No problem? How would she beat him? Sasuke avoided attacks from A. Suigetsu and Jugo avoided attacks by A. Where did those guys end up? Beaten and bloodied. Now keep in mind A is strong enough to kill Naruto in a single blow, and Naruto completely failed to take him on hand to hand at all.
One trick pony? Because of one punch? You'd have to be painfully stupid to believe that. I can watch a boxing match and see a guy dodge one punch. That doesn't give me the slightest clue who will win. You are a joke.
Originally posted by King Kandy
No problem? How would she beat him? Sasuke avoided attacks from A. Suigetsu and Jugo avoided attacks by A. Where did those guys end up? Beaten and bloodied. Now keep in mind A is strong enough to kill Naruto in a single blow, and Naruto completely failed to take him on hand to hand at all.One trick pony? Because of one punch? You'd have to be painfully stupid to believe that. I can watch a boxing match and see a guy dodge one punch. That doesn't give me the slightest clue who will win. You are a joke.
Woah, dude. Aren't you being a bit aggressive? That's AA, not a troll.
Originally posted by King Kandy
No problem? How would she beat him? Sasuke avoided attacks from A. Suigetsu and Jugo avoided attacks by A. Where did those guys end up? Beaten and bloodied. Now keep in mind A is strong enough to kill Naruto in a single blow, and Naruto completely failed to take him on hand to hand at all.One trick pony? Because of one punch? You'd have to be painfully stupid to believe that. I can watch a boxing match and see a guy dodge one punch. That doesn't give me the slightest clue who will win. You are a joke.
My guess is she'd burn him with chakra claws. Which she should have if she has the same mode.
She is faster than all 3. And one of them darn near killed the Raikage and did leave him weakened for the rest of his life. So not a good counter argument. And yeah, Naruto failed to take him in hand to hand. That mean he is good at it? No. From what I recall, Naruto wasn't trying to hurt A. Now if he wanted to, I'm completely confident Naruto would beat him like a joke personally.
A has shown so much variety in the various ways he runs up to people and tries to hit them right? The only thing that was very different was Riger Bomb, which he can't do anymore.
But let's look at something interesting: You think Naruto could go into SS-. Mito, going by what Madara said, had a similar transformation to Naruto. Assuming she had mastery over it(considering Naruto got it shortly, I see no reason she couldn't), she'd basically have the same moves. She couldn't do the rasengan of course but everything else is free game. Super speed, chakra claws, etc.
Also, she'd be S anyway without this mode. She defeated the Kyuubi in an internal battle by herself. Naruto had help.
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
It was pretty aggresive but KK is right though...at least IMO concerning A being beaten by previous Kyuubi hosts.Mito might've had the ability but I'm doubting she had the form...otherwise she'd rival even Hashirama's power.
Eh, not really. Hashirama could control Bijuu like trained pets so he'd still be far more powerful. And it's not like the most powerful person in the village has to be Kage.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Why is Kushina in s+? OK, she has the uzumaki-type chakra. Whatever. Yamato can do the same stuff. And she was a jinchuriki. We have no idea how proficient she was, but note how she is not considered a "full master" like Bee or Yagura. She couldn't do the sense-evil thing, so it seems to me like her proficiency was probably even less than current naruto. We also don't know any unique jutsu as far as combat goes. I don't see why she should be in the same tier as the immensely powerful beings of S+.
She showed the ability to restrain full-power 9-tails, without her jinchuuriki power, and this ability is not limited to use on biju.
Think about that for a moment. Between that and her seal mastery and greatly renowned chakra, she's S even sans any jinchuuriki powers. I think the addition of the kyuubi at solid mastery (not total, but she had 'filled the hole in her heart' and knew the transformation jutsu) is worth a step.
And Mito? She has Naruto's kyuubi mode, and extremely high-level seals on top.
Demonic PhoenixBasically a Sasori with pretty much most of his arsenal removed?
A?
Yea, like when he was fighting Kankuro as a zombie.
He can still grab and puppet other people and such.
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Meh Kabuto's S+ at best IMO even with the Edo Tensei Zombies. It appears Orochimaru could've done the same thing Kabuto is doing aside from allowing free will. Plus he's pretty much a nerfed Orochimaru with a few perks that were better than the original.Plus his job controlling Edo zombies has been shit so far.
How so? If he has dozens of ninjas to aid him in battle, all of whom are A-S+ level, then he's extremely OP.
That's because he's chosen to let them keep their will, while restricting certain actions and inclinations.
Orochimaru on the other hand completely subdued the wills of the 1st & 2nd Hokage, so they became nothing more than mindless zombies following Orochimaru's commands.
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
He's immortal and could potential spam everything that the other bodies had. Plus his Preta powers would render ninjutsu useless and then there's Chibaku Tensei. Granted that he still has become pretty lame as an Edo zombie.
Chibaku Tensei would come at the cost of sealing himself up as well, which would in effect, cause him to defeat himself.
He's still powerful, S+ level IMO, but the 6 Paths of Pain were what made him near-unbeatable.
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
It was pretty aggresive but KK is right though...at least IMO concerning A being beaten by previous Kyuubi hosts.Mito might've had the ability but I'm doubting she had the form...otherwise she'd rival even Hashirama's power.
People seem to over-estimate A's abilities.
Naruto would have b****-slapped A silly had he used his Rasengans, instead of talking and attempting to dodge. HtH is another story though.
Rival Hashirama with Naruto's current Kyuubi form? Base Hashirama maybe. Hashirama with Bijuu under his command? Nah.
Reason being that Hashirama could easily suppress the Kyuubi's chakra.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Woah, dude. Aren't you being a bit aggressive? That's AA, not a troll.
He can be a troll though. link-rape
Originally posted by Q99
Yea, like when he was fighting Kankuro as a zombie.He can still grab and puppet other people and such.
Grab and puppet other people is all he has going for him. In a one-on-one battle, it would work wonders, but that's assuming he's fast enough to grab them, while they are slow enough that he can dodge their hits.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
My guess is she'd burn him with chakra claws. Which she should have if she has the same mode.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
She is faster than all 3. And one of them darn near killed the Raikage and did leave him weakened for the rest of his life. So not a good counter argument. And yeah, Naruto failed to take him in hand to hand. That mean he is good at it? No. From what I recall, Naruto wasn't trying to hurt A. Now if he wanted to, I'm completely confident Naruto would beat him like a joke personally.
Again, you are very inconsistent on this as well. Jugo avoided his attack. According to you, this LITERALLY means Jugo would beat Raikage like a joke.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Considering A is the one trick pony to end all one trick ponies, yeah, pretty much.Assuming she has mastered the form to the extent Naruto has, she'd have no problem with A.
Granted, that is assuming she did. It seems like she has but not outright stated.
Well, GEE, if he is such a "one trick pony", how come Jugo got raped? Obviously avoiding an attack means very, very little. And you dodge around this by saying "well sasuke hurt him". Relevance = 0.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
A has shown so much variety in the various ways he runs up to people and tries to hit them right? The only thing that was very different was Riger Bomb, which he can't do anymore.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
But let's look at something interesting: You think Naruto could go into SS-. Mito, going by what Madara said, had a similar transformation to Naruto. Assuming she had mastery over it(considering Naruto got it shortly, I see no reason she couldn't), she'd basically have the same moves. She couldn't do the rasengan of course but everything else is free game. Super speed, chakra claws, etc.Also, she'd be S anyway without this mode. She defeated the Kyuubi in an internal battle by herself. Naruto had help.
Originally posted by dadudemon
If we want to force Kabuto as "fully summoned" and prepared, then that's like giving Naruto several shadow clones in Kyuubi tech mode, several in meditation mode, several with rasengans, several with mini rasengans, several giant toad summons, and several with rasenshuriken's ready the throw. Even then, Naruto could still accomplish that much faster than Kabuto did with all of his preparation and summoning. In fact, based on how fast Naruto mass kyuubi mode shadow, cloned, toad summoned, mini rasenshuriken'ed, and rasegan'ed, I would not put it past Naruto to be able to due all of the stuff I mentioned in less than 30 seconds....
On a side note, if you wanted to add an asterisk next to Naruto for his 'prep', I don't see why you couldn't bump him up to an SS-. IMO, he's a more versatile summoner and jutsu user than both Minato and Jiraiya, now. His speed is amongst the very best, now. And the power of his jutsus, alone, are among the top 5 in Naruto.
THOSE are the reasons. The kyuubi form is nothing special. Physically A can kill it in one blow and it is around him in speed. It is much less advanced than the forms Bee uses. Now, for Naruto, it is useful. He can use it for crazy rasengan combos, super clones, kuchiyose, etc. You know who can't do those things with it? Mito.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
People seem to over-estimate A's abilities.
Naruto would have b****-slapped A silly had he used his Rasengans, instead of talking and attempting to dodge. HtH is another story though.
Remember the Uzumakis were originally feared for their seals alone.
You know the seal Danzo paralyzed Sasuke with with a touch in their fight? That's an Uzumaki one (it's a reverse version of the 4 element seal, a known uzumaki jutsu). Barrier jutsu are seal jutsu too. It's been shown that seal masters can do a variety of stuff by applying seals with a touch. High level seal powers are dangerous.
Let's be fair: A wasn't going all out on Naruto until the very end.
Naruto DEFINITELY wasn't going all out. He was just blocking A's punches.
There are only two instances in which we have definitive feats of "going all out" from A: against Minato and the final punch against Naruto.
Other than that, we can only guess at what A's absolute fastest and strongest punches are.
Naruto and Minato are the only two people to legitimately dodge A's "balls to the wall" effort. Sasuke and Jugo both did NOT do so.
As far as the fight, I think Naruto could have easily won had he actually tried. That would have been the absolute most stupid thing he could have possibly done. Same with A killing Naruto at the very first moment.
Originally posted by Q99
Remember the Uzumakis were originally feared for their seals alone.You know the seal Danzo paralyzed Sasuke with with a touch in their fight? That's an Uzumaki one (it's a reverse version of the 4 element seal, a known uzumaki jutsu). Barrier jutsu are seal jutsu too. It's been shown that seal masters can do a variety of stuff by applying seals with a touch. High level seal powers are dangerous.
Oro was impressed with Kakashi's cursed seal seal.
And I'm not stuttering.
That was supposed to be a powerful seal from Kakashi and he's nowhere near as skilled as Minato, Oro, or the Uzumakis.
the Uzumakis were so feared for their sealing abilities that the great ninja war resulted in them getting wiped out. That's how much of a threat they were.
Powerful seal techs are serious business...but we don't know too much about them like, say, lightning jutsus.
Originally posted by Q99
Remember the Uzumakis were originally feared for their seals alone.You know the seal Danzo paralyzed Sasuke with with a touch in their fight? That's an Uzumaki one (it's a reverse version of the 4 element seal, a known uzumaki jutsu). Barrier jutsu are seal jutsu too. It's been shown that seal masters can do a variety of stuff by applying seals with a touch. High level seal powers are dangerous.
BTW where does it ever say Danzo used an uzumaki seal?
Originally posted by dadudemon
Let's be fair: A wasn't going all out on Naruto until the very end.Naruto DEFINITELY wasn't going all out. He was just blocking A's punches.
There are only two instances in which we have definitive feats of "going all out" from A: against Minato and the final punch against Naruto.
Other than that, we can only guess at what A's absolute fastest and strongest punches are.
Naruto and Minato are the only two people to legitimately dodge A's "balls to the wall" effort. Sasuke and Jugo both did NOT do so.
As far as the fight, I think Naruto could have easily won had he actually tried. That would have been the absolute most stupid thing he could have possibly done. Same with A killing Naruto at the very first moment.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Do you think Naruto could beat A with hand to hand only?
That's hard to say, actually.
I want to say it's 40-60 with 60 being A.
When Naruto AND A got serious, Naruto completely dodged A. I don't now how long he could keep that up...and even Tsunade remarked that it was amazing that Naruto could even keep up with A.
That's another point. Tsunade was astounded that the kyuubi-form could keep up with A. But if Mito already had used that form, with that level of speed, it should have been just as expected. This leads me to believe that Naruto has achieved speed unheard of before, and Mito is unlikely to be close to him or to A.