Originally posted by Q99
I get the impression the normal way to do it is to work up control tail by tail.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v55/c519/10.html
So it looks like Bee did a similar process, where he had a chakra-only form like Naruto. I would say this is complete proof that turning into a biju is a more complete mastery than what Naruto is doing.
Hmm, prediction time:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v55/c521/3.html
I'm going to make a guess here and say that doing those seals doesn't end the technique. But actually just does something screwed up to whoever tries it.
Originally posted by King Kandy
I get the impression you're dead wrong. Mainly because of this scan:http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v55/c519/10.html
So it looks like Bee did a similar process, where he had a chakra-only form like Naruto. I would say this is complete proof that turning into a biju is a more complete mastery than what Naruto is doing.
Hm, true, they do state that it's required for biju ball.
So is Yugito more advanced than Naruto at biju control too...?
Something about this still seems off to me. One area I find kinda confusing is that in a lot of ways, biju ball excepted, full biju mode seems less impressive than biju-chakra mode. And the Kyuubi seems actively dismayed when Kushina's chains show up, which seems really odd if there was low mastery involved. Especially considering that Minato was so knowledgeable about what makes a good jinchuuriki than he was giving A and B advice!
-
I will point out that simply being able to do high-level chakra cloak without full transformation is pretty badass too, but a couple factors suggest that Kushina was really able to maintain control in the Kyuubi relationship.
Originally posted by Q99
Hm, true, they do state that it's required for biju ball.So is Yugito more advanced than Naruto at biju control too...?
Something about this still seems off to me. One area I find kinda confusing is that in a lot of ways, biju ball excepted, full biju mode seems less impressive than biju-chakra mode. And the Kyuubi seems actively dismayed when Kushina's chains show up, which seems really odd if there was low mastery involved. Especially considering that Minato was so knowledgeable about what makes a good jinchuuriki than he was giving A and B advice!
-
I will point out that simply being able to do high-level chakra cloak without full transformation is pretty badass too, but a couple factors suggest that Kushina was really able to maintain control in the Kyuubi relationship.
Kushina has chakra that is extra-effective against Biju. OK. And a chapter earlier Naruto had tossed the kyuubi around and actually beat it with a rasenshuriken. If he had been able to resist its "hatred", he actually would have won the fight right there. So forgive me if i'm not crazy impressed with the psi-fight when we know those aren't really all that representative of their power.
What are these factors? I see no indication Kushina even could transform at Naruto's level. Before Bee no Kumo jinchuriki had ever released more than a few tails and lived. Most jinchuriki never get much control at all. And with her ability to contain the Kyuubi most likely she just kept it under tight lock her whole life. In fact Minato even loosened the seal on Naruto to make it easier for him to access the kyuubi. So her's was probably much tighter.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
So...my friend just suggested the most awesome idea for Nagato."I wonder how Nagato will be useful in the fight...seeing as how the guy can't stand and all. He should summon a mother kangaroo and fight from her pouch."
Or a flying bird, and get out of Naruto's range.
Originally posted by Q99
But the only thing Naruto seems to be lacking for full mastery at Bee's level is the Biju's cooperation. The full taking of the chakra as well as cooperation can't be the requirements for Biju ball unless Bee and Yagura are the only two people ever to do it, which seems unlikely.We know physical transformation (as opposed to cloak) doesn't require high mastery too- we saw that with Killerbee, who could do limbs even as a kid.
I think Yugito's mastery is lower than Naruto's and more akin to his earlier transformation, just with more control. Naruto's is higher in that he can access more power, it's just he did it in a way that also cut off transformations that he earlier had access to.
Also I will note Kushina had Kyuubi much better sealed than Naruto did (likely because she could refresh the seal at any point, and tie it up in internal combat). So where Naruto could retain full control at 3-tails... she could likely do several more.
I get the impression the normal way to do it is to work up control tail by tail.
The requirements for Bijuu Ball is transforming into the Bijuu, which requires being on friendly terms with said Bijuu. Note that this only applies to Jinchuurikii themselves, seeing as the Kyuubi had no problem using the Bijuu Ball when it had complete control over Naruto.
Kisame's words suggest otherwise. He was surprised that Bee could partially transform, and went on to call him the perfect host. So it requires a very high level of control. In addition, Bee first used the Hachibi's limbs when he fought Minato, which was after his training on the Island. So it's likely he was already friendly with the Hachibi then, but he hadn't yet bothered to learn the Bijuu Ball, which itself is likely a requirement for having 'complete' mastery over a Bijuu.
Gaara is different in that he is just using Sand to create constructs resembling the Shukaku. He isn't actually transforming like Bee does.
The power of the seal holding back the Bijuu does not affect how much power you can use while retaining control, it affects how well the Bijuu's chakra is kept restrained. So really, Kushina was safer from the Kyuubi's influence, than Naruto was. However, her seal could have also been set up like Naruto's.
One other thing, Naruto was never allowed to reach 9 Tails, as doing so would release the Kyuubi. Gaara too does not fully transform, as he is merely creating a Sand Construct that looks like Shukaku, which Shukaku itself then controls.
Yugito on the other hand could fully transform, so that likely indicates that her control over the Bijuu is better than Naruto's.
Originally posted by Q99
Something about this still seems off to me. One area I find kinda confusing is that in a lot of ways, biju ball excepted, full biju mode seems less impressive than biju-chakra mode. And the Kyuubi seems actively dismayed when Kushina's chains show up, which seems really odd if there was low mastery involved. Especially considering that Minato was so knowledgeable about what makes a good jinchuuriki than he was giving A and B advice!-
I will point out that simply being able to do high-level chakra cloak without full transformation is pretty badass too, but a couple factors suggest that Kushina was really able to maintain control in the Kyuubi relationship.
In that context, they were talking about mastery in the form of restraint over the Bijuu. Having a weak heart would make it easier for the Bijuu to take over the Jinchuurikii, which is why the predecessors of Bee and Kushina wanted them to fill their heart with love.
You mean control in the form of restraint. I have no trouble believing that Kushina could keep the Kyuubi under a tight lock & key for most of the time, unlike Naruto, given her sealing jutsu prowess, and her chakra's affinity for sealing Bijuu. I do however have trouble believing that she could use a lot of its power willingly without losing control, when she could not use its Evil-sense.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Kushina has chakra that is extra-effective against Biju. OK.
Actually, they just said it'd make her a good host, they never said it had anti-biju properties.
It's not wood or the first's necklace. It doesn't suppress biju chakra like psycho gundam implied.
From the looks of it, it's just really strong chakra that lets her rangle the kyuubi just because of it's power. A specifically remembered her because of her 'strong chakra and lifeforce' when Naruto commented on her helping, nothing more.
This seems to be the most key element- people have several times brought this up as if it was wood-type chakra, but if it works simply because it's strong and not because it suppresses biju power or anything, would you agree that's worth S+?
What are these factors? I see no indication Kushina even could transform at Naruto's level.
In her internal mindscape, she has Kyuubi locked up much better (Consider Naruto's: Low control, cage. High control, pinned under gates). Kyuubi is intimidated by her. Minato knows what makes a stable jinchuuriki. Everyone being convinced her chakra will be a big help to Naruto in handling the Kyuubi.
Before Bee no Kumo jinchuriki had ever released more than a few tails and lived. Most jinchuriki never get much control at all.
It doesn't seem to be that rare, considering some jinchuuriki live pretty long (like Roshi), and how the kage talk about controlling their power.
Bee's cousin lost control pretty fast, and Gaara was degrading too before he met Naruto, so if one loses control, they tend not to make it too long.
We don't know if Bee was the first to get higher tails either, just that they had a string of failed hosts at the time.
Originally posted by Q99
We don't know if Bee was the first to get higher tails either, just that they had a string of failed hosts at the time.
Well..we could say that all the hosts succeeded in taking over. They didn't fill the void in their hearts so they eventually got depressed and the bijuu took over and consumed them/killed them.
Boom.
Originally posted by Q99
Actually, they just said it'd make her a good host, they never said it had anti-biju properties.It's not wood or the first's necklace though. It doesn't suppress biju chakra like psycho gundam insinuated.
From the looks of it, it's just really strong chakra that lets her rangle the kyuubi just because of it's power.
This seems to be the most key element- people have several times brought this up as if it was wood-type chakra, but if it works simply because it's strong and not because it suppresses biju power or anything, would you agree that's worth S+?
S+
Itachi Uchiha
Killerbee
Kushina Uzumaki
Madara Uchiha (Sharingan only)
Minato Namikaze
Mito Uzumai
Muu
Onoki
IMO, you'd have to be bonkers to think that Mito and Kushina belong there with the others. We have island busters, MS masters, and the strongest hokage. For people who have basically no demonstrable abilities, being on this very short and selective list is nonsense.
Originally posted by Q99
In her internal mindscape, she has Kyuubi locked up much better (Consider Naruto's: Low control, cage. High control, pinned under gates). Kyuubi is intimidated by her. Minato knows what makes a stable jinchuuriki.
Originally posted by Q99
It doesn't seem to be that rare, considering some jinchuuriki live pretty long (like Roshi), and how the kage talk about controlling their power.Bee's cousin lost control pretty fast, and Gaara was degrading too before he met Naruto, so if one loses control, they tend not to make it too long.
We don't know if Bee was the first to get higher tails either, just that they had a string of failed hosts at the time.
Not true at all. Gaara first lost control as a very small child. But he survived fine until part I. And he survived until part II started afterwards. So it just ain't so. Of course Gaara's case is a little different. Since he doesn't actually change into Shukaku but just sits in it.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Well..we could say that all the hosts succeeded in taking over. They didn't fill the void in their hearts so they eventually got depressed and the bijuu took over and consumed them/killed them.Boom.
Originally posted by King Kandy
No, not at all. You would need way more than just tough chains to be S+.
Chains/barriers, Uzumaki seals, and biju power.
That's three areas.
She was, while dying, able to hold the Kyuubi better than a combined force of Konoha ninja including old Sarutobi.
If you can beat up Kyuubi and you have Kyuubi, that's rather uber.
IMO, you'd have to be bonkers to think that Mito and Kushina belong there with the others. We have island busters, MS masters, and the strongest hokage. For people who have basically no demonstrable abilities, being on this very short and selective list is nonsense.
We also have Bee who's there, and quite solidly, primarily because of his Biju control.
We also have Naruto, and Mito has the same mode as him only with a full Kyuubi instead of yang-only, and seals.
At least with Kushina we don't really know how high her mastery (I could see maybe dropping her down on the grounds of 'she's probably S+, but there's some doubt). But Naruto-level mastery of 9-tails is pretty much worth S+ on it's own.
Naruto's ability to keep the kyuubi locked up was at an all-time high when Orochimaru double-sealed it.
But inside-the-head Kyuubi didn't get more restrained until his seal had actually gotten weaker, but Naruto's control better.
And the jutsu used to loosen or tighten the seal? Kushina and Minato knew it. They could mess around with it on purpose better than Jiraiya could.
Not true at all. Gaara first lost control as a very small child. But he survived fine until part I. And he survived until part II started afterwards. So it just ain't so. Of course Gaara's case is a little different. Since he doesn't actually change into Shukaku but just sits in it.
His father was pretty sure him going out of control for good was just a matter of time, though, and general consensus was pretty similar.
Originally posted by King Kandy
How did they succeed?
By conquering and controlling their bijuu, like we saw already.
Originally posted by King Kandy
They never released more than a few tails before dying. So they blatantly did not have any control. The same thing happened to Naruto, twice. He just luckily had people to bail him out.
How do you know? I never saw this.
Originally posted by dadudemon
By conquering and controlling their bijuu, like we saw already.How do you know? I never saw this.
Um, you didn't see when he went four tails, and needed Yamato to save him? Or when he went 8 and his father's ghost bailed him out? Yeah, these are definitely good control feats.
Primary argument that I'm seeing for lowering Kushina to S: "She's not an S+, she's an S with anti-biju powers, that's why she can do so well against Kyuubi."
Primary counter-argument: "They never say she has anti-biju powers."
It's really the answer to the counter-argument I'm curious about.
Originally posted by King Kandy
When did the previous hosts ever conquer and control their biju? I see no indication they did.
We also saw no indication that they didn't, besides for the last few right before Bee.
They did have the whole ritual place on turtle island.
Originally posted by Q99
Primary argument that I'm seeing for lowering Kushina to S: "She's not an S+, she's an S with anti-biju powers, that's why she can do so well against Kyuubi."Primary counter-argument: "They never say she has anti-biju powers."
It's really the answer to the counter-argument I'm curious about.
Originally posted by Q99
We also saw no indication that they didn't, besides for the last few right before Bee.They did have the whole ritual place on turtle island.
Originally posted by King Kandy
No, I don't think her Kyuubi feat, legit or not, is worthy of S+. I see no way she could beat people in S, let alone S+.
What, you don't think Kyuubi itself is at least S?
And keep in mind it's just part of her abilities, and fairly flexible in itself too. She can physically grab something, she can make barriers, she can use lots of chains or just one, etc..
Let's say she fights KillerBee. She could handle him in full transformation mode, something many S-classes could not.
Is the complaint that we haven't seen enough of her? Because the abilities we've seen or have been informed of are S+ and S class, pretty much without doubt.
I'm really trying to pin down *where* the complaint is, specially. Because I've gotten a lot more complaining than I've gotten actual reasons why (or at least, reasons that don't have problems with them, like the 'she's only good against Kyuubi because of anti-biju powers' thing, which is not the case, and I can't rate on assumptions).
Well outside of those few, we haven't seen any period. Out of the ones we've seen, on panel, the majority died before achieving mastery. I see no point comparing him to hypotheticals neither seen nor mentioned.
For the same reason we also can't claim Bee's the first to control multiple tails.