Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Well, in terms of mind-raping, it isn't mind-raping if they don't know about it...technically. 😛
Actual raping is another discussion, one that I do not wish to get into. Kay, that sounded weird.Agreed, but the way Sasuke suddenly and drastically turned face was quite extraordinary in my opinion, enough that I'd suspect something else to be controlling him.
It's still an actual toad. Contrast that with the crow which is some genjutsu/clone crap.
Extreme chakra draining was what caused the emaciation in the first place. Someone would have to have an I.Q. of 10 to not realize that extreme chakra absorption would heal him.
Well, he told Sasuke about the EMS, died at his hands to give Sasuke the MS, and assumed Sasuke would transplant the eyes for more power. He didn't think Madara would try to turn Sasuke, but he planned for that as well, though it's thanks to phasing/Izanagi that Madara survived really.
Pfft. You just can't argue with me. You know this to be true. awesome
It was but then again, Sasuke is very likely to have gone off his rocker. His psyche can only take so much after all.
The crow isn't a genjutsu thing though. It is an animal. At least the toad is, in a way, just chakra.
Unless of course he thought the emaciation was irreversible. Which is understandable. Using a lot of chakra probably burns up the body but getting too much chakra might not help it.
I don't think that was Izanagi. And still, awful stretch that Madara wouldn't capture Naruto. Which he was planning on it until Kabuto decided to do it.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Pfft. You just can't argue with me. You know this to be true. awesomeIt was but then again, Sasuke is very likely to have gone off his rocker. His psyche can only take so much after all.
The crow isn't a genjutsu thing though. It is an animal. At least the toad is, in a way, just chakra.
Unless of course he thought the emaciation was irreversible. Which is understandable. Using a lot of chakra probably burns up the body but getting too much chakra might not help it.
I don't think that was Izanagi. And still, awful stretch that Madara wouldn't capture Naruto. Which he was planning on it until Kabuto decided to do it.
I know. You can only handle being pwned so many times. Too much, and you'll go bat-crap crazy. 313
That's probably the case, but why right after he fought Bee, unlocked Susano'o, and went after Danzou? Why not when he unlocked MS and accepted the truth about Itachi? Plus Susano'o seems to be a key factor in all this.
You have it reversed. The crow is just chakra, seeing as it was created by Itachi during his genjutsu+clone move. The toad is an actual animal, albeit one that contains a scroll. We even see it being summoned by Minato.
Well, enough chakra can apparently restore a person to life, but it's a complicated process. Getting enough chakra really should heal someone from physical damage.
It could have been phasing, but I doubt Itachi did not know that Madara could phase and use S/T techs.
He could have easily planted something in Naruto that would react to Madara's Sharingan. 313
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I know. You can only handle being pwned so many times. Too much, and you'll go bat-crap crazy. 313That's probably the case, but why right after he fought Bee, unlocked Susano'o, and went after Danzou? Why not when he unlocked MS and accepted the truth about Itachi? Plus Susano'o seems to be a key factor in all this.
You have it reversed. The crow is just chakra, seeing as it was created by Itachi during his genjutsu+clone move. The toad is an actual animal, albeit one that contains a scroll. We even see it being summoned by Minato.
Well, enough chakra can apparently restore a person to life, but it's a complicated process. Getting enough chakra really should heal someone from physical damage.
It could have been phasing, but I doubt Itachi did not know that Madara could phase and use S/T techs.
He could have easily planted something in Naruto that would react to Madara's Sharingan. 313
I'm Sasuke, I'm already that. Quit making up laem excuses for your failures. awesome
Eh, he was pretty much ready to destroy Konoha at the time. The only real inconsistency is his treatment of Karin. He really wanted to save her but that could be attributed to needing her in order to find Dannzo. Cruel thought actually.
Difference being said scroll is chakra near as I can tell that at least makes sense in where it would go, in Naruto at least. The crow however had an eyeball transplanted into it.
Eh, what Chiyo did was quite a bit more complex than anything most shinobi do. And having too much chakra can actually cause more damage, like what happens to Naruto.
Eh, Madara did keep secrets from him. And nah, if he had done that something would have happened.
LOL what if Madara had transplanted Itachi's eyes to himself instead of Sasuke? XD
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I'm Sasuke, I'm already that. Quit making up laem excuses for your failures. awesomeEh, he was pretty much ready to destroy Konoha at the time. The only real inconsistency is his treatment of Karin. He really wanted to save her but that could be attributed to needing her in order to find Dannzo. Cruel thought actually.
Difference being said scroll is chakra near as I can tell that at least makes sense in where it would go, in Naruto at least. The crow however had an eyeball transplanted into it.
Eh, what Chiyo did was quite a bit more complex than anything most shinobi do. And having too much chakra can actually cause more damage, like what happens to Naruto.
Eh, Madara did keep secrets from him. And nah, if he had done that something would have happened.
LOL what if Madara had transplanted Itachi's eyes to himself instead of Sasuke? XD
They aren't excuses, they are facts. Figures that you'd believe lies as opposed to facts. vin
He was ready to destroy Konoha, but he wasn't ready to sacrifice his team-mates so casually. Neither was his chakra so cold at that point. Meh. Who cares.
Also, what's up with you saying eh, eh? 313
How exactly is the scroll chakra? And the scroll is part of an actual toad, not a chakra construct like the crow.
That's if the chakra is tainted with hatred like the Kyuubi's. Both A and Kisame have too much chakra, but they can handle it just fine.
Now Naruto has all of the Kyuubi's chakra, but the chakra itself doesn't affect him.
Yep, secrets like Izanagi. I can understand Itachi not knowing about Izanagi; not even Konan or Nagato knew about it most likely. Phasing and S/T is another story though, and they are Madara's go-to techs.
But Madara's never used his Sharingan on Naruto, has he. Or it could be his MS. vin
Madara would get the Rinnegan awesome
Originally posted by dadudemon
Actually, that's exactly what it was.I'm failing to see how this is different, at all, from what I said.
The end result is this: "protect konoha". What is "this"? This = technique/jutsu. What is the jutsu? An eye technique that was implanted into a crow and inserted into Naruto.
Summary: the tech. was created to protect Konoha from Itachi's eyes, regardless of the bearer.
As I see it, this portion of the discussion is quite useless. We are not saying different things.
On that same exact page is the information that I was posting to your original point (the post you quoted was a response to a previous post I made to Nemebro, and that post of mine was a response to a post of yours and what I was technically referring to).
Itachi said this:
"With this, the edo tensei is cancelled..."
That was my response to you saying this:
This is not 'free will'. If Itachi in his current state decided he wanted to destroy konoha, the genjutsu would make him protect it instead. I don't see how that is free will at all.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
They aren't excuses, they are facts. Figures that you'd believe lies as opposed to facts. vinHe was ready to destroy Konoha, but he wasn't ready to sacrifice his team-mates so casually. Neither was his chakra so cold at that point. Meh. Who cares.
Also, what's up with you saying eh, eh? 313How exactly is the scroll chakra? And the scroll is part of an actual toad, not a chakra construct like the crow.
That's if the chakra is tainted with hatred like the Kyuubi's. Both A and Kisame have too much chakra, but they can handle it just fine.
Now Naruto has all of the Kyuubi's chakra, but the chakra itself doesn't affect him.Yep, secrets like Izanagi. I can understand Itachi not knowing about Izanagi; not even Konan or Nagato knew about it most likely. Phasing and S/T is another story though, and they are Madara's go-to techs.
But Madara's never used his Sharingan on Naruto, has he. Or it could be his MS. vinMadara would get the Rinnegan awesome
Fact is I'm better than you. Believe it.
Eh, cause he still needed them. He only got really dementedly evil when he was within distance of Danzo. Sorta like how he was usually not as much a dick in part one until Itachi was brought up. And I'll say Eh when I wanna. 😛
Cause he appeared not to have it until Minato gave it to him. Odd image. And the crow was not a genjutsu, it is a living thing. I guess Itachi's pet or whatever.
Well, what about Sasuke when he used Chidori and it burnt his skin? Skinny Nagato has a build more like him than A/Kisame.
ST yeah, intangibility maybe not. And nah, he hasn't. But it would still activate if he just looked at Naruto with it. It would be funny to see Madara affected by that genjutsu.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
[B]Eh, cause he still needed them. He only got really dementedly evil when he was within distance of Danzo. Sorta like how he was usually not as much a dick in part one until Itachi was brought up. And I'll say Eh when I wanna. 😛 /B]
It gives him a lot more freedom than the Edo control. As long as it follows one parameter, he looks like he can act fairly freely, rather than being more directly puppeted. And fortunately in his case, that one parameter corresponds to one he'd follow given a choice as well (It's less constraining on him than someone who wouldn't do that on their own).
From what I gather, the genjutsu basically forces someone to make one specific decision, and then from that point on they'll act like they made it of their own will and act accordingly.
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Ever watch Gargoyles? In one episode Goliath was hit by a mind-control enslavement spell, and Demona destroyed the counterspell. Lacking a way to break it, Elisa noted the circumstances under which he'd follow commands, and gave him the command to act like he's not under mind control. So every episode past that he's really under mind control, and the creator confirmed that if someone else tried to mind control him it wouldn't work as the original mind control is still in effect and would override ('less it was a crazy powerful spell).
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Well, in terms of mind-raping, it isn't mind-raping if they don't know about it...technically. 😛
Yes it is. The term 'rape' means to use the persons body without their consent. In the case of mind-rape it is the character manipulating the persons mind- the last free bastion of the human individual, the one place you are absolutely free in to be whoever you want to be- without the persons consent. It arguably even worse than actual rape. Him not knowing about it has nothing to do with this. ****ing a passed out girl is rape. No consent was given. End of story.
Now whether it is a crime that is justified in being commited, there we have some leeway. Itachi's genjutsu can certainly bring about a great amount of good, and stop Sasuke from doing a great amount of evil. Is that worth it? Personally I'd say yes, simply from an Utilitarian perspective.
Originally posted by Q99
It gives him a lot more freedom than the Edo control. As long as it follows one parameter, he looks like he can act fairly freely, rather than being more directly puppeted. And fortunately in his case, that one parameter corresponds to one he'd follow given a choice as well (It's less constraining on him than someone who wouldn't do that on their own).From what I gather, the genjutsu basically forces someone to make one specific decision, and then from that point on they'll act like they made it of their own will and act accordingly.
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Ever watch Gargoyles? In one episode Goliath was hit by a mind-control enslavement spell, and Demona destroyed the counterspell. Lacking a way to break it, Elisa noted the circumstances under which he'd follow commands, and gave him the command to act like he's not under mind control. So every episode past that he's really under mind control, and the creator confirmed that if someone else tried to mind control him it wouldn't work as the original mind control is still in effect and would override ('less it was a crazy powerful spell).
Originally posted by King Kandy
lol, killing someone and calling it "nothing personal", is a major dick move.
Yeah, Sasuke is a dick. But not an evil one. Well not much of an evil one at the time.
Originally posted by Q99
It gives him a lot more freedom than the Edo control. As long as it follows one parameter, he looks like he can act fairly freely, rather than being more directly puppeted. And fortunately in his case, that one parameter corresponds to one he'd follow given a choice as well (It's less constraining on him than someone who wouldn't do that on their own).From what I gather, the genjutsu basically forces someone to make one specific decision, and then from that point on they'll act like they made it of their own will and act accordingly.
---
Ever watch Gargoyles? In one episode Goliath was hit by a mind-control enslavement spell, and Demona destroyed the counterspell. Lacking a way to break it, Elisa noted the circumstances under which he'd follow commands, and gave him the command to act like he's not under mind control. So every episode past that he's really under mind control, and the creator confirmed that if someone else tried to mind control him it wouldn't work as the original mind control is still in effect and would override ('less it was a crazy powerful spell).
Gargoyles! 😮
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes it is. The term 'rape' means to use the persons body without their consent. In the case of mind-rape it is the character manipulating the persons mind- the last free bastion of the human individual, the one place you are absolutely free in to be whoever you want to be- without the persons consent. Him not knowing about it has nothing to do with this.
This is a good example of my conception of mindrape, about half way through:
Originally posted by King Kandy
I don't think that's correct. I think that mind rape is supposed to imply the sort of traumatic experience of rape, not necessarily surreptitious situations like this.This is a good example of my conception of mindrape, about half way through:
No, it is still rape even if no trauma is inflicted. If say you drugged a girl and then had your way with her it would still be classified as rape. She doesn't experience pain or anything else during the act, but that is irrelevent. You are still forcing yourself on her, forcing your will on her and using her for your own ends without her consent. You are absolutely raping her.
Justly, forcing yourself on a persons mind is the exact same thing. Its just not physical.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Fact is I'm better than you. Believe it.Eh, cause he still needed them. He only got really dementedly evil when he was within distance of Danzo. Sorta like how he was usually not as much a dick in part one until Itachi was brought up. And I'll say Eh when I wanna. 😛
Cause he appeared not to have it until Minato gave it to him. Odd image. And the crow was not a genjutsu, it is a living thing. I guess Itachi's pet or whatever.
Well, what about Sasuke when he used Chidori and it burnt his skin? Skinny Nagato has a build more like him than A/Kisame.
ST yeah, intangibility maybe not. And nah, he hasn't. But it would still activate if he just looked at Naruto with it. It would be funny to see Madara affected by that genjutsu.
Your penchant for believing lies continues to amaze me. Don't believe that...
Nah, cause they saved his ass from Bee, to the point where he started thinking about Team 7. Or did he need Team 7 too?
But yes, Danzou's presence aggravated it.
No, the scroll is a part of his body. Minato only gave the key to the seal to Gerotora.
The crow was created by Itachi when he used his genjutsu and crow clone tech. So it's more of a chakra construct than the Toad will ever be. That's pretty much all there is to it.
He used his intangibility quite a lot.
Well, we don't know that for sure, now do we? 313
Yeah, Madara protecting Konoha. That would be lulzy.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Thing about that is it leads to the uncomfy comparison, what if someone was raped the normal way, i.e sex, but were for some reason unable to notice or simply did not know it was rape? Would that still be rape? Yes, yes it would.Edit: This is an unpleasant conversation. 🙁