The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Wouldn't Madara still be a shell of his former self during his fight with Minato?

In general I really want to know what warrants Tsunade as a full S. Her combat feats suck.....not to be confused with strength feats.

He had the ability to summon the Kyuubi, which would wreck Hachibi faster than Bee can rap.

She's the best medic-nin in the series, to the point where her abilities led to Konoha's victory in a War, and can save hundreds of people from a city-busting attack. She's also the only person who could have healed Orochimaru after he got gimped thanks to Sarutobi.
Her Yin-Seal release gives her a nice chakra boost, and can be used for her regeneration.

wakkawakkawakka
In general I really want to know what warrants Tsunade as a full S. Her combat feats suck.....not to be confused with strength feats.

Haven't you asked that before?

Answer: Her huge support powers. She can healbot an entire army at once on short notice.

In fighting, she's only S-, no doubt (strength, slug, and super regen). Being the best mass healer in the world who does command & control too gets her up one.

Demonic Phoenix

Hmm, though we didn't see much from them, what about the last generation of the Seven Swordsmen, or rather, a couple of them?

I *assume* they're A and A+, with maybe the leader at S-, but we've yet to see enough to tell so no rating yet.

Also, still no reference for Kisame?

I still don't think it's enough. It's got advantages over the 'immunity to taijutsu' powers, but it also has disadvantages, namely it has to be actively used (i.e. if you don't hit a ninjutsu with the sword, it's not stopped. You can still use high-chakra powers against him if you're careful) and it's poor against fire. It's scaleable, but it's situational, the foe can do something about it, he needs to apply it properly, etc.. When it's against foes like Gai, the bonuses that raise Kisame up to S barely apply.

It is worth the whole increase in rank that it gives, but there are other foes who'll do extremely well against a specific class of foe even if those foes are generally stronger too, or can otherwise punch above their weight in specific situations.

Originally posted by Q99
Haven't you asked that before?

Answer: Her huge support powers. She can healbot an entire army at once on short notice.

In fighting, she's only S-, no doubt (strength, slug, and super regen). Being the best mass healer in the world who does command & control too gets her up one.

I forgot...my bad but shouldn't she have a mark by her name. It'd make more sense to me if she did.

A yeah I was going by combat not her healing/durability feats.

As for Madara...he could probably summon the Kyuubi as long as it was wild. He still fought like he did against Danzo's men when fighting Minato.

Originally posted by Q99
I'd like to know at least one foe Yagura fought before rating, personally. At least with Yugito we saw the aftermath of a fight with no foes.

Oh yea, one last thing about Samehada. While it's bonuses are super-awesome against some, against other foes like Gai and Mifune, it's bonuses against most ninja barely apply at all, he might as well be wielding a mundane sword. So it balances out.

wakkawakkawakka
I forgot...my bad but shouldn't she have a mark by her name. It'd make more sense to me if she did.

The * isn't really for that, though. She doesn't need prep to do said things, just activate her forehead seal.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I take it you now agree with removing Mito, then?

Nope, she's got Kyuubi-chakra mode.

Originally posted by Q99
Nope, she's got Kyuubi-chakra mode.

Originally posted by King Kandy
And we know for a FACT that Yagura had better control than that. So that is a huge double standard. She has a low level of control and no feats, he has high level and no feats, so what kind of logic is that?

We have more data on her- We know not only does she have the mode, but we've seen what that specific mode does (and when the Kyuubi is less strong than it was back then) and know that it gives her Naruto's uber sensor abilities. Furthermore, we know that she's an incredible seal-master, a side ability unrelated to the biju.

Near total master of the strongest biju plus knowledge of another area > just total mastery of a lower tail biju.

If enough people think I should put up Yagura, I will totally budge and go with the flow, btw.

Originally posted by Q99

The * isn't really for that, though. She doesn't need prep to do said things, just activate her forehead seal.

Edit: Oh.....well Tsunade could get some character at least to not make it as weird.

Originally posted by King Kandy
And we know for a FACT that Yagura had better control than that. So that is a huge double standard. She has a low level of control and no feats, he has high level and no feats, so what kind of logic is that?

I can give my opinion on this. The Kyuubi is more powerful than the Sanbi by a significany margin if you go by the tail measurements. Then there the fact that the Kyuubi Mode has benefits that actually make it better than the full transformation in sorts.

However the real mystery is if Mito had all of the perks Naruto's Kyuubi Mode has....cause she'd be stronger than Tobirama and at least equal to Hashirama if she did IMO.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka

However the real mystery is if Mito had all of the perks Naruto's Kyuubi Mode has....cause she'd be stronger than Tobirama and at least equal to Hashirama if she did IMO.

Logically, it should have more, as the Kyuubi was pre-split.
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Tobirama had some totally unknown space time jutsu, strong water jutsu, and Edo. Without knowing the space time jutsu it's hard to tell what he's got. I mean, what little fighting we saw of him wasn't super impressive, but we know he didn't pull out his big jutsu that time.

Even if he's 'only' S directly, there's Edo in his arsenal.

Originally posted by killermover
I think you're overrating Bee to much. Bee fought a Sasuke that was weakened, un prepared and had no full mastery of his MS and basically was using it at 10% of it's true power.

Now Sasuke surpassed Bee when he finished fighting Danzo and can one shot him with Ammy or Susanoo.

And yeah Madara beats bee with ease with any version. Space/Time Intagagble body and all that.

Yes, Sasuke was so unprepared. Wait a minute, wasn't he the one who instigated that fight and had teammates? Why I do believe he was. Sounds prepared. And yes you're right on the no full mastery thing but 10% is a number you just made up. At worst, Sasuke was at 50% power and even that seems too low.

lol Susano'o? No. That arrow will do nothing to the Hachibi. Bijuu Bomb will tear through Susano'o though. And yes, Amaterasu is quite capable of damage. Too bad it can be dodged by Bee more likely than not.

Current? Yes. The one who literally had his arm blown up by Konan? Much closer.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Brah, if it does not count to Karin of all people, it's a sure thing that it does not count to us. 😛

Nah. To get one of the cats to show the way to Nekobaa, Sasuke had to give it what basically is cat marijuana. They're definitely gangsters. 😛

Naruto didn't defeat him. Both Bee and Naruto couldn't put him down. vin
Yeah, more appearances from people like Minato, Itachi & Killer Bee would be kewl.
True, though Nagato would more than likely win that battle, especially if he had the 6 Paths.

She was stunned. awesome

That was a present. 😛

Naruto held the crow, which put Itachi under a genutsu, so in a roundabout way, he did. 😛
I want to see A vs Minato round two. Should be awesome.
Yeah, if he had the 6 Paths. But I still think it'd be cool.

Originally posted by Q99
We have more data on her- We know not only does she have the mode, but we've seen what that specific mode does (and when the Kyuubi is less strong than it was back then) and know that it gives her Naruto's uber sensor abilities. Furthermore, we know that she's an incredible seal-master, a side ability unrelated to the biju.

Near total master of the strongest biju plus knowledge of another area > just total mastery of a lower tail biju.

If enough people think I should put up Yagura, I will totally budge and go with the flow, btw.

I personally don't, because we know Madara was controlling Yagura, meaning he could also have been controlling the 3 Tails. Mito might not be level 5 but she has Naruto's transformation and considering that she'd have it after Hashirama's death, anything she did was solely her own power. Yagura might be strong but there is reasonable doubt for his prowess because of Kisame's flashbacks.

Originally posted by Q99
We have more data on her- We know not only does she have the mode, but we've seen what that specific mode does (and when the Kyuubi is less strong than it was back then) and know that it gives her Naruto's uber sensor abilities. Furthermore, we know that she's an incredible seal-master, a side ability unrelated to the biju.

Near total master of the strongest biju plus knowledge of another area > just total mastery of a lower tail biju.

If enough people think I should put up Yagura, I will totally budge and go with the flow, btw.

So that's one vote for add.

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I figure, worst-case, when we see Yagura's jinchuuriki skill that'll solidly give us enough info.

I personally don't, because we know Madara was controlling Yagura, meaning he could also have been controlling the 3 Tails. Mito might not be level 5 but she has Naruto's transformation and considering that she'd have it after Hashirama's death, anything she did was solely her own power. Yagura might be strong but there is reasonable doubt for his prowess because of Kisame's flashbacks.

Though even if it's partially because of Madara, if Yagura was *always* like that, we should probably rate Yagura at that level.

And we could later add a "Yagura (Not Madara's Pawn)" if we find out there is a difference later on.

How do you even know that Mito retained that ability after Hashirama died?

Originally posted by King Kandy
How do you even know that Mito retained that ability after Hashirama died?

I don't think we have sufficient reason to believe she wouldn't.

Naruto gained the mode with the help of others, yet he keeps it on regardless.

Originally posted by Q99
So that's one vote for add.

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I figure, worst-case, when we see Yagura's jinchuuriki skill that'll solidly give us enough info.

Though even if it's partially because of Madara, if Yagura was *always* like that, we should probably rate Yagura at that level.

And we could later add a "Yagura (Not Madara's Pawn)" if we find out there is a difference later on.

Alright then I suppose.

Originally posted by King Kandy
How do you even know that Mito retained that ability after Hashirama died?

Kushina's chakra helped Naruto beat the Kyuubi. After it was gone, he could still go that mode. Based on how the mode works, she'd have it regardless of his death.

Also, this.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel

She was stunned. awesome

That was a present. 😛

Naruto held the crow, which put Itachi under a genutsu, so in a roundabout way, he did. 😛
I want to see A vs Minato round two. Should be awesome.
Yeah, if he had the 6 Paths. But I still think it'd be cool.

I personally don't, because we know Madara was controlling Yagura, meaning he could also have been controlling the 3 Tails. Mito might not be level 5 but she has Naruto's transformation and considering that she'd have it after Hashirama's death, anything she did was solely her own power. Yagura might be strong but there is reasonable doubt for his prowess because of Kisame's flashbacks.

From shock, not pleasure. sly

Still gave the cat the equivalent of marijuana to gain their approval. Gangster Cats for sure.

Said crow coming from Itachi, with said genjutsu coming from Shisui. So really, Itachi defeated himself with Shisui's & Naruto's help. vin
What it takes to defeat Itachi is a ninja of his caliber, plus two other ninja, one of which has a broken ability, whilst the other is high up himself. Pretty uber no? awesome
Nah, Bee vs. Minato. A's SMALL-TIEM.

If Madara's method of controlling Yagura was anything like Kotoamatsukami, then I doubt he had anything to do with Yagura's control over the Sanbi.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel

Kushina's chakra helped Naruto beat the Kyuubi. After it was gone, he could still go that mode. Based on how the mode works, she'd have it regardless of his death.

Also, this.

It's not related to the mode itself, but the seal that's keeping the Kyuubi tied down, which is uber enough that it instantly thinks of the Rikudo Sennin.
Though seeing as Kushina herself was a high-caliber seal user, I think she could keep the Kyuubi down even after Hashirama's death, but not necessarily with a seal as strong as Naruto's.

Basically, Mito likely had the same stat upgrades as Naruto, if not better; the Evil-sense, and her own jutsu.

Originally posted by Q99
I don't think we have sufficient reason to believe she wouldn't.

Naruto gained the mode with the help of others, yet he keeps it on regardless.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Then why would you doubt Yagura's ability to do so?

Couple reasons.

One, it's just our speculation to begin with and I don't intent to actually figure it into the ranking of Yagura until and unless it becomes canon. I won't assume a weakness based on speculation.

Two, we've seen that Madara's control is a more lasting genjutsu, and Madara was always hanging out with Yagura.

Originally posted by Q99
I *assume* they're A and A+, with maybe the leader at S-, but we've yet to see enough to tell so no rating yet.

A to A+ seems alright depending on the swordsman, though I think the lower ones would be in A-.
Mangetsu should be in A+, if Suigetsu's in A, which I don't fully agree with, but that's besides the point. Even though they seem about equal, Mangetsu's managed to master all swords including Samehada, and can summon all of them if they're available.

Originally posted by Q99
I still don't think it's enough. It's got advantages over the 'immunity to taijutsu' powers, but it also has disadvantages, namely it has to be actively used (i.e. if you don't hit a ninjutsu with the sword, it's not stopped. You can still use high-chakra powers against him if you're careful) and it's poor against fire. It's scaleable, but it's situational, the foe can do something about it, he needs to apply it properly, etc.. When it's against foes like Gai, the bonuses that raise Kisame up to S barely apply.

It is worth the whole increase in rank that it gives, but there are other foes who'll do extremely well against a specific class of foe even if those foes are generally stronger too, or can otherwise punch above their weight in specific situations.

Everything can have disadvantages based on the opponent. Put a user like Orochimaru with ET up against someone with excellent sealing jutsu, and ET can be negated, or stopped completely mid-summon.
Then there are Konan's 6 Billion Tags, which will be fairly pointless against most opponents, seeing as the jutsu the Tags were used in, was fast and powerful enough to split apart a Lake. The tags were really put there to combat Madara's phasing abilities.

Samehada not liking it when it is used against fire is offset by the fact that Kisame specializes in Water jutsu, and is the best Water-user we've seen in action. Even if Samehada does not like Fire, it seems to be more or less okay against it when used.

Really, we have a unique case here, and you labeled another similar but unique case with an asterisk without much hesitation.
ET and 6 Billion Tags offer a much larger advantage than Samehada's ability to increase its wielder's strength based on the strength of the opponent, but that's offset by ET & 6 Billion Tags needing ridiculous amounts of prep.

The point is not to elevate him to a level above others, which is what I think you have a problem with. The point is to notify people that Kisame's strength with Samehada can fluctuate depending on the respective strength of the opponent.
This is what tier lists are for, to give info on the strength levels of characters.

Originally posted by Q99
Oh yea, one last thing about Samehada. While it's bonuses are super-awesome against some, against other foes like Gai and Mifune, it's bonuses against most ninja barely apply at all, he might as well be wielding a mundane sword. So it balances out.

A mundane sword would not help him by giving him the chance to have a great advantage underwater against most ninja, including Mifune and a Gai not using his 7th Gate.

The sword wouldn't be of much use against Taijutsu-heavy users like Gai or Mifune (though I'll note that he still uses chakra to strengthen his blade, and that would be absorbed easily), but again, certain ninjas aren't effective against certain types.

Originally posted by Q99
Couple reasons.

One, it's just our speculation to begin with and I don't intent to actually figure it into the ranking of Yagura until and unless it becomes canon. I won't assume a weakness based on speculation.

Two, we've seen that Madara's control is a more lasting genjutsu, and Madara was always hanging out with Yagura.

I'll point out that the Kyuubi chakra mode remaining after the Kyuubi has been subjugated, is tied to how powerful the Seal holding down the Kyuubi is, and not to the mode itself.

Both Ao & Mei have suggested that Madara's genjutsu was akin to Shisui's, and if that's the case, then he likely didn't affect the Bijuu when he controlled Yagura.
In addition, the fact that Sanbi couldn't break Yagura out of the genjutsu either means that Sanbi couldn't affect Yagura, or that Yagura hadn't tamed it.
Of course, Koto seems like the jutsu that is incredibly hard to break. Ao had to ask Danzou to release the genjutsu.