The Official Naruto series Thread

Then there are Konan's 6 Billion Tags, which will be fairly pointless against most opponents, seeing as the jutsu the Tags were used in, was fast and powerful enough to split apart a Lake. The tags were really put there to combat Madara's phasing abilities.

I'm pretty sure the addition of all those explosives would be a huge boost in firepower against most foes. I doubt the non-explosive form could drop a biju, for example, but I'd think with the tags it could manage just fine.

It's only more needed against Madara because the base jutsu is already overkill against most opponents 🙂

Really, we have a unique case here, and you labeled another similar but unique case with an asterisk without much hesitation.
ET and 6 Billion Tags offer a much larger advantage than Samehada's ability to increase its wielder's strength based on the strength of the opponent, but that's offset by ET & 6 Billion Tags needing ridiculous amounts of prep.

I don't think they're that similar.

Samehada's drain works against almost everyone. In some cases it provides more, in others less, but in general it does work on everyone, and on average it puts him in S, with a few outliers in both directions and about the same amount of outliers in both. In some cases he'll effectively be an S-, others an S+, and in the lion's share he'll be S.

Also, it's not prep based. Whether or not it can be done is an on-the-spot result of how a battle goes. All the * abilities are prep based.

Finally, it's not even the only one that greatly boosts the user's capabilities based on the opponents.

3rd Kazekage can steal weapons, Sasori can steal people with strings, Nagato's chakra rods can control people, and the mind-control powers are super reliant on the foe's strength.

I consider it "a conventional power with high but precedented range of variability".

Originally posted by Q99
I'm pretty sure the addition of all those explosives would be a huge boost in firepower against most foes. I doubt the non-explosive form could drop a biju, for example, but I'd think with the tags it could manage just fine.

It's only more needed against Madara because the base jutsu is already overkill against most opponents 🙂

Not when most normal foes she faced would likely be put down, literally, by the huge abyss that just opened up under their feet.

Indeed. His phasing abilities made the original jutsu useless, even if it was overkill against most other opponents.

Originally posted by Q99
I don't think they're that similar.

Samehada's drain works against almost everyone. In some cases it provides more, in others less, but in general it does work on everyone, and on average it puts him in S, with a few outliers in both directions and about the same amount of outliers in both. In some cases he'll effectively be an S-, others an S+, and in the lion's share he'll be S.

Also, it's not prep based. Whether or not it can be done is an on-the-spot result of how a battle goes. All the * abilities are prep based.

Finally, it's not even the only one that greatly boosts the user's capabilities based on the opponents.

3rd Kazekage can steal weapons, Sasori can steal people with strings, Nagato's chakra rods can control people, and the mind-control powers are super reliant on the foe's strength.

I consider it "a conventional power with high but precedented range of variability".

I'm not talking about similarity in respects to how they bring about the strength increase or their particular attributes, but similarity in respects to how they're unique cases that cause the character's strength level to change rather dramatically.

I think the fusion ability that Samehada offers Kisame, in conjunction with his Water Dome tech, would put him firmly in S, even if he faced someone like Mifune. Those two techniques aren't reliant on how much chakra Samehada has absorbed from the opponent, unlike the regeneration. In addition, Samehada naturally absorbs some chakra from Kisame, so that could be used to heal him from less severe injuries.

I never said it was prep based. I stated that the * abilities offered drastic increases in strength, but were offset by the need for a lot of prep, as opposed to Samehada that offered a lesser increase, but was more readily useable.

Do you mean 3rd would steal kunais and weapons like that? Wouldn't increase his strength by a lot. Would perhaps just add some more iron for him to manipulate.

Controlling others with chakra threads isn't something that Sasori uses, instead preferring to use his own puppets. When he's without puppets, he can steal people. It's his only tactic when completely without puppets. Mini-ET.

Nagato using chakra rods to control someone is another rarely used tactic, and one which he can only employ when he's right next to them in his walker. Not really applicable in a battle.

Kotoamatsukami is uber-broken anyway. Another Mini-ET if you will.
Saddled with ridiculous lag time too.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
From shock, not pleasure. sly

Still gave the cat the equivalent of marijuana to gain their approval. Gangster Cats for sure.

Said crow coming from Itachi, with said genjutsu coming from Shisui. So really, Itachi defeated himself with Shisui's & Naruto's help. vin
What it takes to defeat Itachi is a ninja of his caliber, plus two other ninja, one of which has a broken ability, whilst the other is high up himself. Pretty uber no? awesome
Nah, Bee vs. Minato. A's SMALL-TIEM.

Why can it not be both? vin

Nah, was just Sasuke being nice. And he was very nice to these guys. I miss that Sasuke.

It was all luck actually. And considering he didn't succeed in his plan, he failed to stop Sasuke. awesome
Bee vs Minato would be cool but I want to see Rasengans effect on teh Armor of DOOM.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Why can it not be both? vin

Nah, was just Sasuke being nice. And he was very nice to these guys. I miss that Sasuke.

It was all luck actually. And considering he didn't succeed in his plan, he failed to stop Sasuke. awesome
Bee vs Minato would be cool but I want to see Rasengans effect on teh Armor of DOOM.

Karin's not that complex. 😛

In all seriousness, yeah, that Sasuke was pretty cool. Though Sasuke's new shirt is much better than the one he first wore in Part 2.

Admit it, to beat Itachi, three S class ninjas are needed.
Also, damn, I thought I would make you laugh when I typed the "Itachi defeated himself with Shisui's & Naruto's help" bit. 😛
That's because Sasuke knew what Itachi was planning vin

Meh, dunno about Rasengan. Though if Chidori didn't work, Rasengan won't. awesome
Rasenshuriken would pwn A though.
Speaking of which, I still do not get how Naruto can use regular Rasengans in this mode. When he first tried using one, it came out like a Bijuu Ball.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I'll point out that the Kyuubi chakra mode remaining after the Kyuubi has been subjugated, is tied to how powerful the Seal holding down the Kyuubi is, and not to the mode itself.

Both Ao & Mei have suggested that Madara's genjutsu was akin to Shisui's, and if that's the case, then he likely didn't affect the Bijuu when he controlled Yagura.
In addition, the fact that Sanbi couldn't break Yagura out of the genjutsu either means that Sanbi couldn't affect Yagura, or that Yagura hadn't tamed it.
Of course, Koto seems like the jutsu that is incredibly hard to break. Ao had to ask Danzou to release the genjutsu.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Karin's not that complex. 😛

In all seriousness, yeah, that Sasuke was pretty cool. Though Sasuke's new shirt is much better than the one he first wore in Part 2.

Admit it, to beat Itachi, three S class ninjas are needed.
Also, damn, I thought I would make you laugh when I typed the "Itachi defeated himself with Shisui's & Naruto's help" bit. 😛
That's because Sasuke knew what Itachi was planning vin

Meh, dunno about Rasengan. Though if Chidori didn't work, Rasengan won't. awesome
Rasenshuriken would pwn A though.
Speaking of which, I still do not get how Naruto can use regular Rasengans in this mode. When he first tried using one, it came out like a Bijuu Ball.

She has more depth than any character in the series. 😛
She is more sane than the rest. She gives up on Sasuke, unlike others I can name.

Well that goes without saying.

Nah, in order to beat an Immortal Itachi, 3 S class ninja are needed. Which makes more sense. And you did a little.
Darn right he did. awesome

Chidori did work though. vin
Indeed it would.
Look, you wanna see him fighting or not? 😮

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix

Meh, dunno about Rasengan. Though if Chidori didn't work, Rasengan won't. awesome
Rasenshuriken would pwn A though.
Speaking of which, I still do not get how Naruto can use regular Rasengans in this mode. When he first tried using one, it came out like a Bijuu Ball.

Well Chidori scratched A...maybe the Rasengan would leave a scratch too?

Isn't the Rasenshuriken a dodgeble attack in it's own right? That means it'd be dodgeble to A too right?

Naruto using his chakra arms is a mystery but he should have no problem using regular ones. It's just the Biju Ball that he can't do in that form since that was one of the first things he tried.

If the penetrating Chidori failed so would the pushy Rasengan :V

Rasenshuriken is dodgeable if you're faster than Naruto or can avoid it if thrown, even then it can expand to catch them.

IIRC when Naruto used the Bijuu Rasengan it was by accident leading to the training. He can do this version if he does the whole 8:2 ration, otherwise he can do the regular Rasengan like normal.

I never said it was prep based. I stated that the * abilities offered drastic increases in strength, but were offset by the need for a lot of prep, as opposed to Samehada that offered a lesser increase, but was more readily useable.

I just don't think it's variability is so big that it warrants an *. He can use most of the moves against non-biju, it just gives him a deeper tank.

It reduces the power of the opponents, but so do many attacks.

And I think just about every non-jinchuuriki S+ will still badly outmatch him in a fight.

Do you mean 3rd would steal kunais and weapons like that? Wouldn't increase his strength by a lot. Would perhaps just add some more iron for him to manipulate.

Depends on what the opponent has. It'd drastically affect the strength of some of his opponents, like sword users, Kumo magnet guy, and such.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
She has more depth than any character in the series. 😛
She is more sane than the rest. She gives up on Sasuke, unlike others I can name.

Well that goes without saying.

Nah, in order to beat an Immortal Itachi, 3 S class ninja are needed. Which makes more sense. And you did a little.
Darn right he did. awesome

Chidori did work though. vin
Indeed it would.
Look, you wanna see him fighting or not? 😮

Please stop making stuff up to try and counter me. It doesn't work, for you at least. 😛
Nah, just watch. When Sasuke returns to Konoha, she'll prostrate herself at his feet and do so because she wants to. 😛

Well I still said it. uhuh

Fair enough. Because we all know that a Mortal Itachi not holding back was a good deal stronger than Immortal Itachi being controlled by Kabuto. vin
Just a little? C'mon man. Don't be afraid to admit the truth. 😛

Barely. Rasengan won't work at all as it is inferior. awesome
Yeah, I do, but not when Naruto can access techs he shouldn't be able to access in the first place 😮.
Also, that mini-Kyuubi was the funniest thing that's happened to Naruto.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Well Chidori scratched A...maybe the Rasengan would leave a scratch too?

Isn't the Rasenshuriken a dodgeble attack in it's own right? That means it'd be dodgeble to A too right?

Naruto using his chakra arms is a mystery but he should have no problem using regular ones. It's just the Biju Ball that he can't do in that form since that was one of the first things he tried.

Dunno. Chidori worked because it can penetrate obstacles easily, but it could have had such a hard time against the Raiton Shroud because it was Lightning vs. Lightning. After all, Bee has had no problems touching A, and Amaterasu has gone through the Shroud as if it were not even there.

It is, but Naruto has tricks to try and hit his opponent with it. He can throw and expand it if he's using Sage Mode, or he can just try and use clones to trap A while he nails him with Rasenshuriken, like he did against Kakuzu.

No, when he first tried creating a Rasengan, he ended up using that black chakra that has a lot of mass, which is the Kyuubi's chakra. Now it's as if he's using his own chakra, as he can make Rasenshurikens, and normal coloured Rasengans.

Originally posted by Q99
I just don't think it's variability is so big that it warrants an *. He can use most of the moves against non-biju, it just gives him a deeper tank.

It reduces the power of the opponents, but so do many attacks.

And I think just about every non-jinchuuriki S+ will still badly outmatch him in a fight.

Depends on what the opponent has. It'd drastically affect the strength of some of his opponents, like sword users, Kumo magnet guy, and such.

While decreasing the strength of the opponent, do they actually increase the strength of the user as well, drastically at times?

Only non-jinchuurikii S+ are Madara, Minato, Muu, Onoki & Itachi. Two of them have S/T jutsu & more, two of them can disintegrate anything & more, and the last one is stated to be stronger than Kisame, by Kisame himself. So it's no wonder they'd outmatch him. They'd outmatch mostly everyone else in S and lower.

But that's something that would exist whenever someone is able to nullify an asset that the opponent has. In addition, it would barely increase the 3rd's power.

What sets Samehada apart from those particular instances, is the fact that Kisame more often than not, gets a good strength boost as well if he's up against someone with a good amount of chakra.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix

Dunno. Chidori worked because it can penetrate obstacles easily, but it could have had such a hard time against the Raiton Shroud because it was Lightning vs. Lightning. After all, Bee has had no problems touching A, and Amaterasu has gone through the Shroud as if it were not even there.

It is, but Naruto has tricks to try and hit his opponent with it. He can throw and expand it if he's using Sage Mode, or he can just try and use clones to trap A while he nails him with Rasenshuriken, like he did against Kakuzu.

No, when he first tried creating a Rasengan, he ended up using that black chakra that has a lot of mass, which is the Kyuubi's chakra. Now it's as if he's using his own chakra, as he can make Rasenshurikens, and normal coloured Rasengans.

Maybe the Raiton Armor only repels ninjutsu. Well Sasuke was using Enton and Amateratsu does burn through things that are fire-proof. However Bee and Minato touching A through it doesn't make much sense so that's the best theory I could come up with.

To be fair Kakuzu wasn't the most nimble of targets when Naruto hit him. Also wouldn't A be fast enough to dodge the one that he throws in Sage Mode...assuming of course it doesn't expand?

Okay but wasn't Naruto trying to do the Biju Ball at first? In that conversation Bee just told him to level up his techniques that he learned already and I guess he did. Your right it doesn't make sense how Naruto just has random Rasengan variants and the mini-Rasenshuriken makes even less sense if it uses wind chakra.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Please stop making stuff up to try and counter me. It doesn't work, for you at least. 😛
Nah, just watch. When Sasuke returns to Konoha, she'll prostrate herself at his feet and do so because she wants to. 😛

Well I still said it. uhuh

Fair enough. Because we all know that a Mortal Itachi not holding back was a good deal stronger than Immortal Itachi being controlled by Kabuto. vin
Just a little? C'mon man. Don't be afraid to admit the truth. 😛

Barely. Rasengan won't work at all as it is inferior. awesome
Yeah, I do, but not when Naruto can access techs he shouldn't be able to access in the first place 😮.
Also, that mini-Kyuubi was the funniest thing that's happened to Naruto.

I am not making stuff up. It's painfully obvious to anyone who reads the manga that Karin has more depth than the rest of the characters. awesome
Nah, it'll just be too hard to resist EMS. Not cause it's genjutsu but because it is just that cool.

Said wut?

Well he had access to the MS, which when Kabuto tried that it activated Itachi's plan on accident. Bad luck for Kabuto. 😛

"You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to. "

Love that movie.

At penetration but it does have a higher power output. 😛
I'd love to see Mini-Kyuubi again. It was awesome.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
While decreasing the strength of the opponent, do they actually increase the strength of the user as well, drastically at times?

I would say the total effectiveness is similar.

Is a move that gives your opponent -2 and you +2 really stronger than one that just gives your opponent -4 (or gives you a +4)?

I think the important thing for rating is that a move is a net-four, not the balance of where those four are distributed.

Only non-jinchuurikii S+ are Madara, Minato, Muu, Onoki & Itachi.

And there's only 3 jinchuuriki S+ right now.

There's also a good number of Ss that can beat him too.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I am not making stuff up. It's painfully obvious to anyone who reads the manga that Karin has more depth than the rest of the characters. awesome
Nah, it'll just be too hard to resist EMS. Not cause it's genjutsu but because it is just that cool.

Said wut?

Well he had access to the MS, which when Kabuto tried that it activated Itachi's plan on accident. Bad luck for Kabuto. 😛

"You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to. "

Love that movie.

At penetration but it does have a higher power output. 😛
I'd love to see Mini-Kyuubi again. It was awesome.

Brah, A has more depth than Karin. About the only time I found Karin appealing was when we saw that flashback of her in the Forest. She looked kinda cute as well.
True enough. Mito only left Madara after he lost to Hashirama vin

Good, you agree that Mortal Itachi > Immortal Itachi.

A few Good Men? I don't remember that one.

Power output seems about the same actually. 😛
More funny than awesome. Or so funny that it was awesome? mmm

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Brah, A has more depth than Karin. About the only time I found Karin appealing was when we saw that flashback of her in the Forest. She looked kinda cute as well.
True enough. Mito only left Madara after he lost to Hashirama vin

Good, you agree that Mortal Itachi > Immortal Itachi.

A few Good Men? I don't remember that one.

Power output seems about the same actually. 😛
More funny than awesome. Or so funny that it was awesome? mmm

Nah. Karin so clearly has more depth. She is after all, a parallel to the audience. vin
Indeed, because no Uzumaki can ignore the Uchiha. Except in Kushina's case where there were no cool Uchiha around that could outcool Minato.

Said crow would have worked on Mortal Itachi too...So nope. 😛

Good movie. Go watch.
Not quite. 😛
And the latter.

Karin had the intelligence to get over Sasuke when he tried to kill her.

That alone makes her better than Sakura.

Dunno. The fact that she could literally do nothing when the dying Danzo had her captured(she didn't even try to escape on her own) kinda puts her bellow Sakura. 😛

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Indeed, because no Uzumaki can ignore the Uchiha. Except in Kushina's case where there were no cool Uchiha around that could outcool Minato.

Said crow would have worked on Mortal Itachi too...So nope. 😛

But Kushina had an Uchiha friend that happened to be Sasuke's mom 😄
On another note does this mean Minato's cooler than the Senju?

Too bad there was no Naruto that could challenge Mortal Itachi at the time. At least to see the crow anyway.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Karin had the intelligence to get over Sasuke when he tried to kill her.

That alone makes her better than Sakura.

Naruto didn't get over Sasuke when he tried to kill him.

Does that put Karin above Naruto as well as Sakura?

Edit: Sorry for double posting