The Official Naruto series Thread

Started by Demonic Phoenix1,600 pages

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Why did he jump so high?
He was. But offscreen. :3

He couldn't even take down Genma. awesome

With the revealation that Shisui's eye was a MS, we clearly know that the Mangekyou is capable of more than the powers we know of. Hinted at earlier, but now it is certain. Madara and Izuna both has MS but we have no idea of their powers. While I don't think Izuna had anything like Koto, he certainly would have some power that a weakened Madara wouldn't feel like fighting without the Rinnegan. Now that he has it, he is more prepared but still would rather work with Kabuto than confronting him and his brother. Though that is just one idea. But I like it.

Eh, we'll see who is better. 😛
Yeah, that is pretty different if nothing else. I'm curious to see some new powers from these eyes.
lol dude, it looked very different in my dream. But yeah, I still foresaw it! And my friend had a dream where Sasuke was fighting Danzo. So I made fun of him for having prophetic dreams of the past. 😛

Coz he's a douche?
Meh, don't really care. He still attacked.

Genma's uber. Took the Sound 4's CS2 stages to beat him and another ninja. Ergo, took 2 CS2 users to beat him. awesome

Or he just loves his brother too much to attack him. vin Or it's just some really uber ninja that Tobi does not want to take on, like his real body/real Madara, or mehbeh one of the Sage's Sons. But yeah, could be Izuna.

Madara's EMS lets him use S/T jutsu that are > Minato's vin Design-wise, still Madara for now. 😛
Same here. Hopefully Kishi decides to showcase a portion of Sasuke's abilities now, and has him at an uber level to match Naruto. Sasuke's MS showcase didn't really go well for Sasuke due to his carelessness.
I'll make fun of you for having dreams about Sasuke. vin

So you two think Kurotsuchi could go for A+ too?

... I will point out, flat-A still represents a *ton* of power and includes pretty elite jonin. She has a kekkei genkai, but I do think she's lower than Suigetsu and Juugo. I'm a bit worried about a rank-inflation thing where everyone in A gets pushed up to A+.

I don't. She's got 3 elements and 1 advanced element to use, and is smart at using them, but we haven't seen a lot from her to warrant a place in A+.
Her best feat had her excavating all those Zetsu, but she did it with a dude that can create a small mountain.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I don't. She's got 3 elements and 1 advanced element to use, and is smart at using them, but we haven't seen a lot from her to warrant a place in A+.
Her best feat had her excavating all those Zetsu, but she did it with a dude that can create a small mountain.

Yea. My thought is she's a young elite who, in a few years, will probably be A+ or more, but hasn't yet shown A+.

---

Oh yea, one more person to possibly rank:
Ittan, the Earth User with the ambush squad. He's the one who dropped and rose a big section of terrain to avoid attack then ground Deidara.

And made a small protective dome to guard the wounded and support ninja.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Coz he's a douche?

Genma's uber. Took the Sound 4's CS2 stages to beat him and another ninja. Ergo, took 2 CS2 users to beat him. awesome

Or he just loves his brother too much to attack him. vin Or it's just some really uber ninja that Tobi does not want to take on, like his real body/real Madara, or mehbeh one of the Sage's Sons. But yeah, could be Izuna.

Madara's EMS lets him use S/T jutsu that are > Minato's vin Design-wise, still Madara for now. 😛
Same here. Hopefully Kishi decides to showcase a portion of Sasuke's abilities now, and has him at an uber level to match Naruto. Sasuke's MS showcase didn't really go well for Sasuke due to his carelessness.
I'll make fun of you for having dreams about Sasuke. vin

Naruto hating?

So he was beaten by kids? 😛

Well the real Madara thing hinges on Tobi not being the real one. At the moment, he is. And I don't think Kabuto could find bodies *that* old.

That isn't his EMS though. 😛
Actually Sasuke's MS showings didn't go so well because Kishi shamelessly used him to make the Kage look badass. It worked I guess but made Sasuke look a little weak.
Not of Sasuke. Of his eyes. And they looked really weird.

Edit: I know why Sasuke killed that Zetsu.

huh, Sasuke's eyes don't look too different from before, just a slight redesign. I do wonder though how much of a difference it'll make with his jutsu. and seeing as the eternal mangekyou made Madara immortal, does that apply to Sasuke now?

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Naruto hating?

So he was beaten by kids? 😛

Well the real Madara thing hinges on Tobi not being the real one. At the moment, he is. And I don't think Kabuto could find bodies *that* old.

That isn't his EMS though. 😛
Actually Sasuke's MS showings didn't go so well because Kishi shamelessly used him to make the Kage look badass. It worked I guess but made Sasuke look a little weak.
Not of Sasuke. Of his eyes. And they looked really weird.

Edit: I know why Sasuke killed that Zetsu.

Moar liek conclusions based on correct observations.
Kids that could go Super Saiyan. 😛

Meh, Kabuto has called him Tobi, and Zetsu consistently calls him Tobi. Who knows. If the bones were well preserved, then maybe.
But yeah, it could very well be Izuna. He was supposed to be Madara's equal before Madara got the EMS and became uber.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v42/c386/10.html For all we know, Izuna's right MS is what could have given Madara that S/T jutsu.
Both really. Sasuke would have known that he was going up against 5 S-class ninjas and more enemies, but he fought like a berserker, and overused Susano'o.
You're a freak. Having wet dreams about eyes. vin

?

Originally posted by danteiscool
huh, Sasuke's eyes don't look too different from before, just a slight redesign. I do wonder though how much of a difference it'll make with his jutsu. and seeing as the eternal mangekyou made Madara immortal, does that apply to Sasuke now?

His EMS never made him immortal, it just took away the blindness that came with overuse of the MS.
What made him so long-lived is his powerful chakra, plus his usage of Hashirama's DNA on himself.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Minato is smarter than Kakashi.

So you'll stand by that and say that even characters like, I dunno, A would think Oil was her weakness?

I'm not too sure about that. I would give Kakashi the intelligence nod over Minato because he has better strategic feats and a much wider range of jutsus.

You should go back and re-read what I said about it because the answer to your question is already there. 🙂

Originally posted by dadudemon
I'm not too sure about that. I would give Kakashi the intelligence nod over Minato because he has better strategic feats and a much wider range of jutsus.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Moar liek conclusions based on correct observations.
Kids that could go Super Saiyan. 😛

Meh, Kabuto has called him Tobi, and Zetsu consistently calls him Tobi. Who knows. If the bones were well preserved, then maybe.
But yeah, it could very well be Izuna. He was supposed to be Madara's equal before Madara got the EMS and became uber.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v42/c386/10.html For all we know, Izuna's right MS is what could have given Madara that S/T jutsu.
Both really. Sasuke would have known that he was going up against 5 S-class ninjas and more enemies, but he fought like a berserker, and overused Susano'o.
You're a freak. Having wet dreams about eyes. vin

?

What douchey things has he done?
Lame kids.

But, he knows things only Madara would know and the Kyuubi seemed to recognize him.

We haven't seen Tobi with a MS or EMS. So I don't think it is connected to the Space Time technique.
He did. Probably could have fought better had he not been so excited about Susano'o.
The dreams were not wet though. 😮

He ordered the wrong kind of pizza! awesome

Originally posted by dadudemon
I'm not too sure about that. I would give Kakashi the intelligence nod over Minato because he has better strategic feats and a much wider range of jutsus.

You should go back and re-read what I said about it because the answer to your question is already there. 🙂

Well he has access to more techniques because of the sharingan. No other real reason. Minato is smarter though. He has shown to be instantly able to recognize the flaws in a jutsu that Kakashi himself created. Among other things, such as planning that no one can match. Well, maybe Itachi.

Ah. So regardless of intelligence, so long as they have an S, they should be able to conclude the Paper's weakness is Oil.

Originally posted by Q99
I never claimed it was a KG to begin with. There are rare jutsu that aren't KG after all (like many of the family-clan techniques, the InoShikaCho techniques are all noted as rare).

As for it being rare, here are the people who have been shown to use it: Jiraiya, Gamabunta.

Complete list.

At bare minimum, none of the other ninja we have listed have been shown to have it. Making it really pointless to say "they'll figure it out," when they don't even have it to use.

Out of several hundred ninja, one and a summon using it is pretty darn rare.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. This is why I say your position is un-provable.

And since it's not a KG...

🙂

Lastly, it’s neither confirmed nor unconfirmed that oil is the only uber weakness of using paper. Most jutsu’s have multiple weaknesses to exploit especially simple ones like paper manipulation. I’d say that Temari’s wind attack would be more than enough to keep the paper away from her while also damaging Konan or at least disrupting Konan. Surely wind is a weakness. Also, any Bijuu blast would make short work of her because …it would destroy everything.

Originally posted by Q99
No, I'm for keeping Suigetsu at A. I'm just using him as an example of how you are applying a double standard on weaknesses by saying she should be dropped down an entire letter grade for a super-rare minor weakness, while you don't have a problem with people who have much more common weaknesses and less power being at their levels.

And I proved how you were doing it wrong: you should keep Suigetsu at A for the same reason I was saying Konan should be A. 🙂

Originally posted by Q99
I'm just pointing out how you're being a big darn hypocrite. Weaknesses are very common in Naruto, yet you're asking for one and only one person to get a major demotion based on it alone.

Actually, I was very consistent despite your failed attempt to paint it otherwise.

Originally posted by Q99
If I applied your standard, I'd have to demote a dozen or more ninja. Possibly every single element user, since those come in with built-in weaknesses.

Incorrect.

Now you're just using what's called a strawman. You have not captured my perspective, properly, and you're using a non sequitur comparison to that strawman.

Originally posted by Q99
Btw.... are you completely forgetting about the +/- ranks or something? Because you're arguing Konan be bumped down a total of 3 slots.

I said "A+" towards the very beginning and then in the same post conceded "S".
So, no, you're forgetting.
Originally posted by Q99
1. Because Konan's much more powerful than Suigetsu? I mean, their offense isn't even in the same ballpark.

2. He's badass, but he's a hard to kill swordsperson. Konan's a hard-to-kill flier with strong flexible defense, area-of-effect offense, and lots of it.

3. Konan has, simply put, demonstrated S-class combat ability.

1. She's not. With prep, maybe. But we don't know what Suigetsu could do with lots of prep when he's studied his opponent for years, either. Not a good comparison. 🙂 And, Suigetsu can "drowned" ninja just the same as Konan can smoother. In fact, it's hard to see Konan doing something Suigetsu can’t do so with his water...minus the billions of explosive tags.

2. Ditto for Suitgetsu. But I'm not advocating a bump to S rank for him. 😉

3. She has not except for her massive prep battle with Mads.

Originally posted by Q99
Me and apparently everyone else. You're standing alone on this, dadudemon, and apparently mostly on stuff directly contradicted by on-panel feats.

Argumentum ad populum. And I've used her feats to show that's she's somewhere in A.

Originally posted by Q99
You're conceding based on Pain saying so, but you're still not taking an objective look at the data.

No, I'm taking an objective look instead of wanking over her character.

Originally posted by Q99
Except she's been shown to be able to surrounded Madara rather quickly and hasn't had a problem with speed when she's attacking. That's one of her big threats that we've seen- she can put so many attacks in the air that defense is really really hard, especially with just speed.
And it was an incredibly huge feat that made her tire out. How will she tire out faster when she's done a jutsu bigger than anything any A-rank is done (and many S-ranks for that matter), and not only that but kept it going for a sustain time?

Problem: Madara could have exited the battle completely if he wanted to. I smell PIS to the max. Why didn't he? Stubbornness to find Nagato? Regardless, her plan should have never worked to hurt him. He didn't even need to use Izanagi. Speed nulls, and quite easily, her using surround techniques. I'm not sure why that isn't overwhelmingly obvious to you.
I do not disagree that she was tiring out from using uber jutsus. I just don't agree that we can say for sure that she's got tons more chakra than Yamato or vice versa.
With someone like Sasuke or Naruto, we can say that they have more chakra than Kakashi. Sasuke could/can keep up with Naruto and Kakashi said Naruto has/would have more than himself. So it's easy to judge that.
Then we have statements about Jiraiya having tons of chakra like Naruto. Then we have statements about Sarutobi being a jutsu god and how he was crap compared to his prime self yet he still held his own against Oro and they both spammed powerful jutsu like mad crazy.

Lastly, you said "incredibly huge feat" when it was not. It was a giant jutsu, for sure...but not "incredibly huge feat". This is what I mean when I say you're not being objective about Konan.
So for those types, yes, we can say that they have/had massive amounts of chakra. We don't know for sure on Yamato or Konan. Big jutsu wears her out...but that would be the case with 99% of the characters (the exception list is probably only 3 deep: Naruto, Jiraiya, and possibly Sasuke(PIS for Sasuke because his chakra rating is like a 4 or something...maybe a new databook is in order?). We do know that she didn't have to expend her chakra creating the explosive tags because she prepared them prior to their battle, so that's a chakra saving point that she employed (which does contribute to her battle smarts and, therefore, her S-Class rating).
But, to your last statement, she made those tags PRIOR to her fight with Madara. That's not comparable to other S classes making comparable huge feats because they didn't have prior prep. For example, that giant stone summon we saw recently: incredibly huge feat. That took a giant amount of chakra to do so. I say that easily trumps the chakra required to manipulate those takes because she had already created them. That ninja was probably an S.
Yamato summoning that giant system for Naruto's training: that's easily much more massive than Konan's paper manipulation.
Yet you still give her the nod despite the fact that she had prepared all of those tags prior to the battle? Do you NOW see why I don't think you're objective about Konan, at all? You have a clear bias in her favor when it comes to her feats.

Originally posted by Q99
Gaara doesn't move a lot and speed alone isn't near enough against him, and like him her attacks are fast.

Wrong.
Speed was more than enough to reach him. You just needed a jutsu to get past his sand armor OR enough strength. His sand also moves very very fast.
Lee had a speed rating of only a 4 when he fought Gaara. A 4.
How does this fair for true speedsters like A, Kakashi, Sasuke, Naruto, Bee, lol, etc.
Originally posted by Q99
Also, when she does move... she flies. As fast as her paper shuriken even, since she can turn into them. Excellent mobility there.

I don't recall her even moving as fast as her "dart-like" paper attack.
However, if you want to compare her to Gaara's sand, I say Gaara has a massive speed feat: he stopped A's attack from hitting Sasuke's Amaterasu in almost an instant. If this were a vs. match, that would give Gaara the speed win by a massive amount. So I don't think she's on the same level as Gaara when it comes to speed just based on feats.
Originally posted by Q99
And of course... she does have paper which very few can deal with. Saying her problem is she relies on paper is like saying Deidara relies on bombs, Gaara relies on sand, or so on. It's technically true, but the jutsu are powerful enough it really doesn't matter.

No, not at all. Unlike Deidra, she has to spend quite a while to create explosions that can be on par with some of Deidara's better explosions.
And I say her paper is not comparable to Gaara's sand feats since he can create massive sand tsunamis on the fly and not have to rely on prep time. 313
This is the difference between her and a true S. 313
Originally posted by Q99
Not really. Yamato gets really exhausted making a row of houses or cliff+waterfall.

And the amount of matter required to create a big house, like he does, could make millions of pieces of paper. We know for a fact that it takes more chakra to create more stuff. Even summons require more charka.
Here's some numbers for you:
One "regular" tree makes 8333 sheets of paper. Her papers are between a forth and half the size of a regular piece of paper. (I'll do both.)
"1 tree makes 16.67 reams of copy paper or 8,333.3 sheets."
http://conservatree.org/learn/EnviroIssues/TreeStats.shtml

"So if you are building this 2000 square foot home, it will take 102 trees."
http://eastsiderealestatebuzz.com/2007/07/26/how-many-trees-does-it-take-to-build-a-2000-square-foot-home-and-other-amazing-facts/

However, Yamato's house was significantly bigger than 2000 square feet and was solid wood..even the furniture.

Just to be nice, I'll only make that amount 5 times more.
So 5 * 102 * 8333 * 4 = 16,999,320 sheets
Larger sheets: So 5 * 102 * 8333 * 2 8,499,660 sheets
But wait...Konan didn't make those sheets on the fly...she prepared them beforehand. So none of that matters in a chakra comparison between the two. Besides, Yamato was rebuilding Konaha by building multiple houses and then getting tired. Him being tired from it is more of a comedy routine (how about a major “duh”?) because he's created massively thick wood (no homo) quite a bit in his fights without getting tired (enough wood to eclipse the homes he's building).
My coworker told me that the reason the houses wear him out and the massive wood creation he does in fights are different: the houses are very complex in design and the wood in battle is very simple. He (my coworker) suggested that it takes far more chakra to create the complex house than it does an equivalent amount of wood in “battle” creations. That makes sense, but there's no evidence to back this up.
Regardless, we can clearly see that it takes far less chakra to create paper than it does to create wood. If we go by the complexity of the summon (again, not supported, but makes sense), paper is very simple and Yamato could summon massive amounts of it at once (because he could summon multiple houses). Try millions at once. He could have created his tags much faster than Konan if he learned how to summon his papers because Konan leads me to believe she spent quite a long time creating those paper tags.
So, based on that, I amend my idea of "we can't tell who has more chakra" to "Yamato obviously has better chakra feats than Konan" because my position is more defensible. 🙂
And that massive earth/waterfall/tree summon thing he did from Naruto is one of the largest chakra expenditures from a non-jinchûriki user we've seen. So stop gimping Yamato to simply win this lame argument because it's making you like silly.

Originally posted by Q99
Konan kept her uber-jutsu going for ten minutes.

More bias on your part. She kept exploding pre-prepared tags for 10 minutes.
Originally posted by Q99
Konan's demonstrated far more in other words. From what we've seen, Yamato would collapse from exhaustion before she'd even be breathing hard if they just tossed their jutsu at each other til one fell.

She hasn't unless you're a blinded by fanboyism for her.
And lol at you’re gimping statements. I've already utterly destroyed that line of reasoning.

Originally posted by Q99
You're... blatantly ignoring what she's done in both speed and stamina.

No, you mean you're blatantly inflating her almost nonexistent speed and inflating her stamina.
Originally posted by Q99
And in defense. Ok, it's official, you aren't even talking about Konan at all. Just how you want her to be. You creatively 're-interpret' her attack's speed down, her stamina down, and her defense down. You can't just ignore how someone's performed when ranking them.

So wait, because I make a humorous re-interpretation of obvious PIS, I'm now "officially" not talking about Konan at all?
No, I am talking about her in a non-cannon manner. That's the whole point of "making sh*t up" ... it's to make sh*t up. 😬 Calm down, relax, and try to enjoy our silly discussions more. Surely you can get a laugh out of some of the things we talk about?
Originally posted by Q99
Konan'd destroy most A-ranks. They don't have a jutsu to exploit her 'weakness' even if they wanted to, and she has way more power.

Of all the things you've posted, this I agree with.
She would destroy most A-Ranks. I have never disagreed with that. I DID put her at A+, remember?
See, we agree afterall.
So why are we arguing.
I think we just wasted our time.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well he has access to more techniques because of the sharingan. No other real reason.

I do not disagree.

In fact, I was implicitely stating that his strategic toolbox is much bigger than Minato's because of that.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Minato is smarter though. He has shown to be instantly able to recognize the flaws in a jutsu that Kakashi himself created. Among other things, such as planning that no one can match. Well, maybe Itachi.

Kakashi was 12-13 at the time, though. 😬

And, lol...I like Itachi, nao. 😮

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Ah. So regardless of intelligence, so long as they have an S, they should be able to conclude the Paper's weakness is Oil.

Incorrect. Go back and re-read what I had said about it. (I will requote it for you, if you want.)

**** you, Naruto. Get out of here with your bullshit.

Dadudemon

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. This is why I say your position is un-provable.

And since it's not a KG...

You can't base an argument on an unproven assertion though.

You need evidence for it to count. Evidence that it's not just something that frog-jutsu users have.


Lastly, it’s neither confirmed nor unconfirmed that oil is the only uber weakness of using paper. Most jutsu’s have multiple weaknesses to exploit especially simple ones like paper manipulation. I’d say that Temari’s wind attack would be more than enough to keep the paper away from her while also damaging Konan or at least disrupting Konan. Surely wind is a weakness.

No more so than the other elements. Maybe if it's more powerful than her jutsu... but Konan packs a heck of a lot of power, more than the wind-users we know (barring Naruto, with his rasen-wind techniques of course).

And again, you can't base an argument on assuming weakness.

Likewise, you assert that speed is a weakness for her... but in practice, it hasn't been. You just assume that it is.

Also, any Bijuu blast would make short work of her because …it would destroy everything.

Not a weakness since that applies to pretty much everyone, include most S people.

"Enemy has an S/S+ rank jutsu" is an enemy strength, not a weakness.


Actually, I was very consistent despite your failed attempt to paint it otherwise.
--
Now you're just using what's called a strawman. You have not captured my perspective, properly, and you're using a non sequitur comparison to that strawman.

You are asking me to downgrade one person based on a very limited weakness, and/or assume significantly greater weakness than is shown.

I don't do that for anyone else.

That's not a strawman, I'm just saying Konan does not get a special exception.


1. She's not. With prep, maybe. But we don't know what Suigetsu could do with lots of prep when he's studied his opponent for years, either. Not a good comparison. And, Suigetsu can "drowned" ninja just the same as Konan can smoother. In fact, it's hard to see Konan doing something Suigetsu can’t do so with his water...minus the billions of explosive tags.

Fly, make clouds of blades, make trees and other objects worth of paper, use hundreds/thousands of explosive tags, and just generally show more power.


3. She has not except for her massive prep battle with Mads.

She almost killed him without her prep jutsu.


Problem: Madara could have exited the battle completely if he wanted to. I smell PIS to the max. Why didn't he? Stubbornness to find Nagato?

Yes? She was the only way to find Nagato and get the Rinnegan, period.

He could've exited the battle before being surrounded by her jutsu, but without the Rinnegan he could not get that step to his life's goal.

Regardless, her plan should have never worked to hurt him. He didn't even need to use Izanagi.

He didn't even have time to warp out, let alone run. This was specifically noted.

See? This is an excellent example of how you're the one making assumptions.

"It really is a weakness, he could've easily avoided this. He was just dumb/inconsistent for not doing so and saying he needed Izanagi."

"It's not a weaknesses, he couldn't escape with speed, he did need Izanagi. Exactly like he said."

The first one forces an inconsistency. The second doesn't and fits with his own actions.

Speed nulls, and quite easily, her using surround techniques. I'm not sure why that isn't overwhelmingly obvious to you.

Because it is, as far as I can tell, not in the manga at all.

... btw, where you the one who was assuming the Fourth Kazekage had a speed weakness too?

Maybe I should put this in bold: We do not assume unshown speed weaknesses.

Especially when the person had no problem surrounding a fast ninja like Madara multiple times.


Lastly, you said "incredibly huge feat" when it was not. It was a giant jutsu, for sure...but not "incredibly huge feat". This is what I mean when I say you're not being objective about Konan.

Any jutsu is a feat. If someone is doing a greater jutsu, then that means they are doing a greater feat.

This:

Is a pretty impressive feat for paper control alone.


Speed was more than enough to reach him. You just needed a jutsu to get past his sand armor OR enough strength. His sand also moves very very fast.
Lee had a speed rating of only a 4 when he fought Gaara. A 4.
How does this fair for true speedsters like A, Kakashi, Sasuke, Naruto, Bee, lol, etc.

And by the retrieval arc, he had gotten to the point where he could handle Kimimaro, a 4.5, the same speed as post-time skip Kakashi and Sasuke.

A and Naruto and Minato might be fast enough, but they're, again, S-class, really S+ class, speed.

Like the Biju Ball, "Attack that only three S+ and one S class people can do," is not a weakness. It applies to almost everyone in S and everyone in S-.


I don't recall her even moving as fast as her "dart-like" paper attack.

She dispersed and flew around as small pieces of paper on several occasions.

It's not quite as fast as thrown, but that's still excellent mobility.


And that massive earth/waterfall/tree summon thing he did from Naruto is one of the largest chakra expenditures from a non-jinchûriki user we've seen. So stop gimping Yamato to simply win this lame argument because it's making you like silly.

Not really. Ittan, a fairly no-name in the ambush squad, was able to move large amounts of Earth up and down like that without much problem.

It's fairly high chakra, but it's not as big as actively controlling billions of objects for ten minutes and holding back a lake seemingly as just a side-thing.


More bias on your part. She kept exploding pre-prepared tags for 10 minutes.

Does pre-prep means the paper moves without chakra? Triggers without chakra? Holds back the lake without chakra? All for ten minutes.

No, it does not. It means she had the tags.


So wait, because I make a humorous re-interpretation of obvious PIS, I'm now "officially" not talking about Konan at all?

Uh, you're ignoring feats/assuming weaknesses.

If I talk about low-stamina Naruto, I'm not talking about canon Naruto. Poor swordsskill Bee, I'm not talking canon Suigetsu. Gaara has a weakness to bugs and earth jutsu, I'm not talking canon Gaara, and so on.


Of all the things you've posted, this I agree with.
She would destroy most A-Ranks. I have never disagreed with that. I DID put her at A+, remember?
See, we agree afterall.

Also most S- characters and she'd beat many S characters as well.

Also she'd beat the A+ characters too.

Ok, something else weird about the wind thing; those are two other people with giant fans next to Temari, aren't they?

Temari's so rude, just ignoring the wind release users right next to her 🙂 Just because they aren't in her league.

Why pay attention to inferiors?

Still, it's polite to not say it in front of them ^^
--
Oh! Mangareader has a much better translation.

It basically is Temari unable to think of a Fuuton user stronger than her in the alliance, and then Naruto comes in claiming to be such a user.

Also the Muu/Onoki exchange, talking about Raikage decoying the 10,000, etc... the character dialog is so much more fitting there.

Originally posted by Q99
You can't base an argument on an unproven assertion though.

You need evidence for it to count. Evidence that it's not just something that frog-jutsu users have.

Yes I can because it was proven.

You're the one claiming it's rare and no one can do it.

I'm claiming that we don't know that and we have no idea if oil stuff is rare in addition to other smart ninja (smarter than Jiraiya) being able to deduce the same.

Prove to me that it is limited to very specific users. There exists no such evidence, btw...so you can't prove it.

Again, our argument is reduced to two baseless points of view with me having a better logical ground to stand on.

Originally posted by Q99
No more so than the other elements. Maybe if it's more powerful than her jutsu... but Konan packs a heck of a lot of power, more than the wind-users we know (barring Naruto, with his rasen-wind techniques of course).

I disagree: she has to make all of those to get that kind of power. That requires a massive amount of prep.

Originally posted by Q99
And again, you can't base an argument on assuming weakness.

I sure can and I did.

Just the same as you're implying that she wouldn't be weak against it. That's much more baseless than me claiming that a massive wind attack should blow her papers away or around. At least we know my conjecture is very realistic in both the Naruto world and in the real world.

Originally posted by Q99
Likewise, you assert that speed is a weakness for her... but in practice, it hasn't been. You just assume that it is.

Yeah, that's kind of a massive weakness of hers since...you know...she was speedblitz stabbed.

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Yes, I know...more bias on your part in favor of Konan. I'm used to it. I'm like that with Minato.

Originally posted by Q99
Not a weakness since that applies to pretty much everyone, include most S people.

"Enemy has an S/S+ rank jutsu" is an enemy strength, not a weakness.

OH! So she's not weak against oil, it's just Jiraiya having a powerful jutsu.

Gotcha. I see how your logic works.

No one has any weaknesses, it's all a system based on jutsus that are more powerful than strengths.

AHA!

You overwhelming optimist, you. doped

Originally posted by Q99
You are asking me to downgrade one person based on a very limited weakness, and/or assume significantly greater weakness than is shown.

No, I am not. I've already conceded that argument. She just doesn't have enough feats to consider her a solid S.

Originally posted by Q99
I don't do that for anyone else.

I want to be pretentious and pretend that your mean "anyone" as in me. Because you'd have to clarify that to me, that means you care about me. weep

But because I know you are talking about characters in Naruto...I don't have happy tears. I have sad tears: cry

Originally posted by Q99
That's not a strawman, I'm just saying Konan does not get a special exception.

It's a strawman because you misrepresented my argument and argued against it. By my logic, you should have concluded that Suigetsu was properly placed in A because of his glaring weakness against a very specific type of jutsu. I pointed that out to you, btw. 🙂

Originally posted by Q99
Fly, make clouds of blades, make trees and other objects worth of paper, use hundreds/thousands of explosive tags, and just generally show more power.

Look, I can do the same with Suigetsu:

He could make tons of deep holes, fill them with water, and disguise them. This would make the battlefield an uber win for him against a Konan that comes to his battle field to fight without prep.

Oh, wait..that's about what Konan did against Madara.

And Suigetsu can move just as much water if not more so..without the need for a medium to mediate that movement. YEAAAH BOY! awesome

Originally posted by Q99
She almost killed him without her prep jutsu.

Wait..you mean where she prepared to kill him far in advance by studying him for years and then used a jutsu she prepared just to take advantage of that weakness?

Yeah, you're wrong in the most direct way possible, yet again. That was a prep jutsu. Just not as involved as preparing billions of explosive tags, bro.

Originally posted by Q99
Yes? She was the only way to find Nagato and get the Rinnegan, period.

So what would have been the problem with him porting from the battlefield as soon as he found out her intentions (which she made no secret about) because it was obviously a tarp.

Oh, I know...pride and complacency...and PIS.

Originally posted by Q99
He could've exited the battle before being surrounded by her jutsu, but without the Rinnegan he could not get that step to his life's goal.

He could have delayed it ever so slightly, however. But we needed a STORY, man.. STORY! 😆

Originally posted by Q99
He didn't even have time to warp out, let alone run. This was specifically noted.

No, he had plenty of time to warp out and it wasn't specifically noted. What you're referring to and what I was directly talking about are two different things.

Originally posted by Q99
See? This is an excellent example of how you're the one making assumptions.

"It really is a weakness, he could've easily avoided this. He was just dumb/inconsistent for not doing so and saying he needed Izanagi."

"It's not a weaknesses, he couldn't escape with speed, he did need Izanagi. Exactly like he said."

The first one forces an inconsistency. The second doesn't and fits with his own actions.

Again, that is a strawman on your part. You did not properly represent my side before arguing against that improper representation.

Correct interpreation:

Madara ports in. He finds out she's against him.

He ports away.

He ports behind her.

R@pe.

End of.

We already know she's susceptible to fast r@pings.

But, no, you will instead misrepresent my perspective because you are severely lacking in any sort of legitimate rebuttal (you can't...my complaint was sound from the beginning). You do it this way: "The attacks already begin. You know...attacks that were designed to keep him from porting while his intangible form is being used. I don't care that there was a massive amount of time before the attacks started...I'm going to pretend that you only meant after the attacks started so I can also pretend that you're dumb and come up with non-existant problems in the plot...cause Kishimoto can't do any wrong."

Originally posted by Q99
Because it is, as far as I can tell, not in the manga at all.

... btw, where you the one who was assuming the Fourth Kazekage had a speed weakness too?

Maybe I should put this in bold: [b]We do not assume unshown speed weaknesses.

Especially when the person had no problem surrounding a fast ninja like Madara multiple times. [/B]

Let me make this clear to you:

Madara is not a speedster...yet he's fast enough to get a drop on Konan. Deal with it.

I would put Madara's actual speed at around a 4. Not a 4.5 or 5 where most speedsters are.

Minato made him look slow. When Naruto lunged at him with his rasengan...he went intangible instead of dodging. If he were a speedster, he could have easily dodged Naruto because Naruto does not have the sharingan which is required to land a blow like that (translates from Kakashi's weakness with using lightning blade).

And she NEVER surrounded Madara: she used a wall of paper that she had pre-prepared to specifically counter his porting.

Naruto? yeah, he can surround people because of his shadow clones. Konan? She can't surround people with her person: she can surround them with paper.

Unless you're saying she can put people inside of her...in which case I cringe at the thought of paper cuts on the ween. 😐

Originally posted by Q99
Any jutsu is a feat. If someone is doing a greater jutsu, then that means they are doing a greater feat.

Sort of. Depends on the context.

Greater feat as in requires more chakra?

Possibly.

Greater feat in that it's more useful in battle? No.

Originally posted by Q99
This:

Is a pretty impressive feat for paper control alone.

I'm not sure what that means considering that's not an image of a paper feat. That's an image of Yamato summuning/producing much more earth (in terms of volume) than Konan produced in paper. Thus soundly trumping her billions of paper feat all at once...and she had quite a while to prepare her paper.

So I take it you concede this point, now? Yamato has more stamina based on feats alone? awesome

Originally posted by Q99
And by the retrieval arc, he had gotten to the point where he could handle Kimimaro, a 4.5, the same speed as post-time skip Kakashi and Sasuke.

A and Naruto and Minato might be fast enough, but they're, again, S-class, really S+ class, speed.

Like the Biju Ball, "Attack that only three S+ and one S class people can do," is not a weakness. It applies to almost everyone in S and everyone in S-.

You're making a really strong case for why she can't be an S, you know that, right?

All these S people you keep bringing up being able to trounce her...

No, Naruto is solid S+ class in his Kyuubi form. His speed is on par with the absolute greatest speed feats we have seen. We could even speculate that A improved his speed since he fought Minato and that would not be illogical especially considering that A weighs less due to missing an arm.

So Naruto would be either #1 or tied for #1 in pure flat out speed...in his Kyuubi chakra mode.

Also, if X jutsu can defeat Y jutsu...then Y jutsu would be weak against X jutsu.

That would a weakness against X jutsu. Her paper defence? It's weak against a bijuu blast. 😐

I win that portion of the argument, right? Please say yes.

Originally posted by Q99
She dispersed and flew around as small pieces of paper on several occasions.

It's not quite as fast as thrown, but that's still excellent mobility.

I agree that that is quite an uber ability to have especially when it comes to evasion of the battlefield. But it's not quite as awesome as Suigetsu's water form.

It's also not very fast.