The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Just because he might have more tools to use, that doesn't equate to being strategically smarter.

I know. This is why I'm relying on his super duper awesome employement of all sorts of jutsus to make that point. Again, it's implicit and I shouldn't have to make it.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And a genius. And the inventor of the technique. He should have been able to see the weakness but he didn't.

And that somehow changes what I said?

It doesn't.

He was 12-13 at the time.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Minato saw it for a second and did.

Minato was also an adult, one of if not the most powerful shinobi in the entire world, and had over a decade of battle experience.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Minato also saw through Madara's technique faster than Kakashi has and determined how to beat it.

To my recollection, Kakashi never determined how to beat it. Minato was the only one that could beat it (at the time...Konan determined later how to beat it through years of study...something that took Minato mere seconds...teehee).

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
You said anyone with battle smarts like Minato could deduce the oil weakness. You said half of A and most of S would fit this category.

Finally, you read it. And now you know the context for which I brought up Minato. So I take it you don't need to bring this up again, right? (Unlikely...because rawr!)

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
1. Minato is a genius. Not many are around his degree of battle intelligence. Except Itachi. Though one could make a case for Sasuke too.

I disagree. I think Kakashi is above Minato because 'feats'.

He determined that Lee's speed wasn't enough to defeat Gaara's sand just from watching them fight and he determined to teach Sasuke both the speed and the chidori in order to defeat Gaara. That's the same as figuring out Madara's phasing vs. porting technique.

Kakashi also figured out Pain's push-pull "secret" delay.

Kakashi also used one of the best battle tactics seen in the entire series to land a hit against Kakuzu. Only two things come to mind: Shikamaru's plan against Hidan and Madara's plan against the First.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
2. No ninja, except for those who can summon toads, have shown to carry oil around. Oil wouldn't even be an option so why would they look at this flying paper woman and instantly conclude that they should use Oil, which they aren't likely to have.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absense. And they would conclude that because Jiraiya said rather nonchalantly and he's considered "moronic" like Naruto.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
3. Konan is S class because she has a handful of supportive moves and because she has by far one of the best feats in the manga for a non-Bijuu character. Her feat was incredibly massive and anyone with half the ability to pull it off is going to be ranked fairly high.

She is S class, prep or no prep.

No, she's S because she was said to be S.

But just by feats, she is not an S without prep.

Ok, Ittan, rock guy with the ambush squad. Ranking him.

B+? A-?

"You're the one claiming it's rare and no one can do it.

I'm claiming that we don't know that and we have no idea if oil stuff is rare in addition to other smart ninja (smarter than Jiraiya) being able to deduce the same.

Prove to me that it is limited to very specific users. There exists no such evidence, btw...so you can't prove it.

Again, our argument is reduced to two baseless points of view with me having a better logical ground to stand on."

Except Naruto ninja normally have fairly narrow jutsu lists, and even those with multiple schools of jutsu (like more than one element) tend to have almost no jutsu outside those areas.

By that logic, we'd be assuming commonness for tons of jutsu even if almost no-one is seen using them. We never see anyone untaught by Orochimaru to use snakes, should we assume they're very common? We only see a few people do mind-reading, should we assume most ninja can pull it off? Etc..

From what we've seen, Naruto jutsu just don't work that way, people learn specific areas and don't just have random unrelated jutsu from different areas outside of the generic jutsu.

Again, we don't do this for anyone else when ranking them. No special exceptions.

He moved it and then created the giant water fall.

I think that is a far superior feat to Konan's lake splitter...based on mass because both are virtually TK.

You're overlooking one very major difference: Duration.

He moved a mass of rocks for seconds. Impressive, a big jutsu to be sure, but it's done soon.

She divided the lake for ten minutes.

She she surrounded him with paper, no doubt. That's...what I said she did. And it WAS a prep attack. She prepared that attack for Madara because of the time delay...but Madara was too fast. She went to plan B.

She laced her paper with explosive tags BEFORE THE FIGHT.

But she surrounded him on the spot.

Goalpost shifting. You're arguing that her attacks don't surround people that easily, and when pointed out how they do, you switch to talking about tags.

(Also we don't know when she put the tags in. Prep was *only* mentioned for the chasm technique)

On your points: pretend she "landed" a tag on his leg...but why did he still have is leg? That point's trash.

Because he phased again after it got on him, touching him. He noted if he had tried to absorb, it'd have gotten him.

It made physical contact with him.

She's not a sensor type...having so many projectiles can only get you so far. Ask TenTen.

And Konan has many, many more projectiles than Tenten with more control and more options with them.

Ask Gaara or his dead how well many small TK-controllable projectiles does for them.

That's a logical fallacy about Hidan. Suigetsu could "keep up with" A, but there's no denying that Suigetsu is not as fast as A.

That's not a logical fallacy, I'm not saying their equal in speed. There's no denying that Hidan is slower than Kakashi, but he's fast enough to not be blitzed. That's the point.

You don't need to be as-fast to be fast enough that you won't be blitzed. Konan's faster than Hidan, so she's not going to be easily blitzed by someone like Kakashi either.

Did I?

Or is this another strawman here you misrepresent my position and argue against it (reading further, it is).

My way does not create inconsistancy. Not even a little bit.

"Again, that is a strawman on your part. You did not properly represent my side before arguing against that improper representation.

Correct interpretation:

Madara ports in. He finds out she's against him.

He ports away.

He ports behind her.

R@pe.

End of.

That's the inconsistency: You say that he can just do this, but he never does.

You are saying he can do stuff inconsistent with how the fight actually went.

What makes you so sure he can if he never did and we had no indication anyone involved thought it could happen that easily?

That is inconsistent with what's shown, when you say one character could easily beat the other, but in practice the character ends up looking like ground meat after trying.

In the fight, Madara constantly had issues with him not having time to space-time absorb stuff. If he does your method, he needs twice that time; warping in then warping her. Twice the time that he already isn't getting isn't going to go down nearly that easily, that seems like a good way to get some explosive tags in the face.

You know, like what actually happened when he tried to warp her the first time.

You are saying the fight'll go one way. In order for this to be the case, we need to assume Madara was dumb and made major mistakes, and could do significantly better in the same situation he was actually in than we did... but we have no reason in the series to assume this is the case rather than it simply not being that easy.

Finally, Pain never says he could kill Jiraiya. He simply said if she gets the chance to kill him. Reality: that's like me telling a friend "if you win the lottery with the $5 I gave you, send me some of the winnings." Very slim chance...but he was still staying positive.

He spoke as if the chance is a real possibility though.

And, I wouldn't say an A-rank would have even a lotto's chance to kill Jiraiya in that time frame 🙂

Originally posted by Q99
Ok, Ittan, rock guy with the ambush squad. Ranking him.

B+? A-?

Solid A, but he could be an A+. We haven't seen enough of him.

Also, I don't care about our argument. Half of what you post is just saying "nuh-uh" to what I'm saying.

In fact, I'll go down the list in order:

The "common-jutsu" thing: wrong. There are tons of jutsu that are common to just about every ninja.

"Nuh-uhhh!" is the only thing you've done, here. I say not nearly as impressive of a chakra feat and you say "nuh-uh" and mask it under "duration".

Duh. So bascially you added nothing to the topic.

Not really. Only if she has prep does she have "many more" with more deadliness to them. This is basically a "nuh-uh".

Wrong. More strawman. I said she, herself, doesn't physical surround people: it's her paper. Stop being poopy.

Wrong and I explained why. You just replied with a "nuh-uh".

This long winded section is nothing but a "nuh-uh". That's the point of it being PIS: it's stupid. Using the stupidity of the situation to justify why it happened is just that: stupid.

This last point is the biggest "nuh-uh" of yours. All you did was say "nuh-uh". I say it was just a passing casual statement and is the situation I described, not yours.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
konan could take current naruto

yeah i said it

FANBOI! uhuh

Originally posted by dadudemon
To my recollection, Kakashi never determined how to beat it. Minato was the only one that could beat it (at the time...Konan determined later how to beat it through years of study...something that took Minato mere seconds...teehee).

I disagree. I think Kakashi is above Minato because 'feats'.

He determined that Lee's speed wasn't enough to defeat Gaara's sand just from watching them fight and he determined to teach Sasuke both the speed and the chidori in order to defeat Gaara. That's the same as figuring out Madara's phasing vs. porting technique.

Kakashi also figured out Pain's push-pull "secret" delay.

Kakashi also used one of the best battle tactics seen in the entire series to land a hit against Kakuzu. Only two things come to mind: Shikamaru's plan against Hidan and Madara's plan against the First.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absense. And they would conclude that because Jiraiya said rather nonchalantly and he's considered "moronic" like Naruto.

No, she's S because she was said to be S.

But just by feats, she is not an S without prep.

He did. But after a while.

Are you saying one of the main characters is smarter than a renowned genius because he has more feats due to said genius being dead?

So what you're saying is, all ninja have flutes and fans.

No, she is S because of feats. Look, we know that her attack on Madara was due to prep. We all know that. But I don't think you realize that her control of the paper is the feat and testimony to her chakra size. You've juggled or try to juggle in your life at one point more than likely. Juggling 600 billion things is akin to what Konan did. Except what Konan did is more impressive.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Solid A, but he could be an A+. We haven't seen enough of him.

Considering how he stayed back and let others take the front, I can't see him that high, even if his jutsu is pretty powerful.

Also, I don't care about our argument. Half of what you post is just saying "nuh-uh" to what I'm saying.

With examples as to why, either from the series or in how we do things.

In fact, I'll go down the list in order:

Yay, concise arguments 🙂

The "common-jutsu" thing: wrong. There are tons of jutsu that are common to just about every ninja.

Only ones from pretty short list, like clones and body-flicker. Other jutsu only come to those who study that area.

"Nuh-uhhh!" is the only thing you've done, here. I say not nearly as impressive of a chakra feat and you say "nuh-uh" and mask it under "duration".

'Duration' is a legitimate argument, you know. It takes more power to do something over time than just once, and she did it over a lot of time.

Not really. Only if she has prep does she have "many more" with more deadliness to them. This is basically a "nuh-uh".

No, she has many more than Tenten uses when just attacking that guy that Jiraiya was puppeting. She had many more when she rushed Madara the first time. Her amount used on Jiraiya which he avoided was a whole lot too, looked to be over a hundred, and that seems to be a basic attack that she just flicked out.

Wrong. More strawman. I said she, herself, doesn't physical surround people: it's her paper. Stop being poopy.

... when I say "she surrounds people," I was talking about her paper too.

So I guess we're agreed on this one. She can surround people with her attacks.

Wrong and I explained why. You just replied with a "nuh-uh".

Your explanation was Jiraiya (a 4.5 himself) could avoid one of her attacks, therefore she's slow enough that she can be blitzed?

Sorry, I don't know *what* to say except 'nuh-uh.' That doesn't follow. Just because someone's attacks are fast doesn't mean they can't be avoided by someone else who's fast, plenty of high-speed people have their attacked dodged. Nothing about that screams 'blitz-able'.

This long winded section is nothing but a "nuh-uh". That's the point of it being PIS: it's stupid. Using the stupidity of the situation to justify why it happened is just that: stupid.

Well, that's exactly my point: You're claiming it's PIS, but it also fits very well if we just don't assume that she's too slow to respond.

Given we have two explanations, one PIS and one not, and the later one when said attack would take twice as long as the absorptions he had to abort multiple times for time-reasons in the fight, why force a PIS?

If something is PIS only if you assume something that isn't demonstrated, then it's not PIS.

B+ for Ittan?

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
True. Strictly in it for the pose though.
Was. Now it is Rogue Ninja. awesome

Well, maybe Itachi is wrong?
I may accept that.

But Minato and I has more in common. The self esteem issues and such.

Naruto's forte is talking, not posing.
Meh, who cares. Naruto's still a genin. Konohamaru too, and he schooled a Path.

Impossible!
You would be wise to do so. 😛

Hinata has self-esteem issues and such as well. 313

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Naruto's forte is talking, not posing.
Meh, who cares. Naruto's still a genin. Konohamaru too, and he schooled a Path.

Impossible!
You would be wise to do so. 😛

Hinata has self-esteem issues and such as well. 313

He has his moments for posing.
Naruto sucks. And Konohamaru is simply young. He'll be Chunin soon.

Improbable.
Wise?

And I has stuff in common with her. Though her source of self esteem issues is different than mine. And I'm not a stalker.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
He did. But after a while.

Are you saying one of the main characters is smarter than a renowned genius because he has more feats due to said genius being dead?

After a lot of observation, trial & error, and time. Conversely, Minato took much less of each aspect. As did Fuu & Torune.
Konan took so long because she likely never really opposed him in battle, and she didn't want to fight him as Nagato trusted him. She was also able to figure out the exact specifics of the jutsus.
The first part applies to Sasuke as well. I'm thinking he's already come up with a way to get around Madara's intangibility and perhaps even the S/T jutsu, but he hadn't back before the Kage Summit because he'd only seen it in action once before.

Originally posted by dadudemon
To my recollection, Kakashi never determined how to beat it. Minato was the only one that could beat it (at the time...Konan determined later how to beat it through years of study...something that took Minato mere seconds...teehee).

I disagree. I think Kakashi is above Minato because 'feats'.

He determined that Lee's speed wasn't enough to defeat Gaara's sand just from watching them fight and he determined to teach Sasuke both the speed and the chidori in order to defeat Gaara. That's the same as figuring out Madara's phasing vs. porting technique.

Kakashi also figured out Pain's push-pull "secret" delay.

Kakashi also used one of the best battle tactics seen in the entire series to land a hit against Kakuzu. Only two things come to mind: Shikamaru's plan against Hidan and Madara's plan against the First.

Fuu & Torune both figured out Madara's attack style in seconds too, but Minato had the luxury of being able to evade Madara's attacks, so he could experiment a little more. Kakashi had to observe other people attacking Madara, and then he came up with his way to get around Madara's intangibility.

Nah, that's nowhere near figuring out Madara's jutsu in seconds.
That's more like Minato figuring out the weakness of Kakashi's Chidori.

That one feat is much better than anything anyone else has done, with the exception of Itachi getting around Chibaku Tensei, or possibly Sasuke around Deidara's jutsu.

Kakashi never used a brilliant tactic to land a hit on Kakuzu. You may have been talking about Deva Path, and while that was very impressive (slightly better than what Naruto has displayed IMO), Minato's tactic against Madara was much better.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
He has his moments for posing.
Naruto sucks. And Konohamaru is simply young. He'll be Chunin soon.

Improbable.
Wise?

And I has stuff in common with her. Though her source of self esteem issues is different than mine. And I'm not a stalker.

Indeed. They're sparse.
Doesn't change the fact that Genins beat extremely powerful opponents, thus defeating your point. vin

Nah, Impossible. Itachi is only wrong when it comes to Sasuke, and let's face it, everyone's wrong when it comes to Sasuke, seeing as he's now more unpredictable than Naruto. 😛
Smart, intelligent, bright, clever, whichever word you prefer.

Nobody cares about the details. Hinata or Sasuke. Choose, ma boi. vin

Dude.

What the **** dawg.

God.

Originally posted by Q99
Considering how he stayed back and let others take the front, I can't see him that high, even if his jutsu is pretty powerful.

I agree. I confused Ittan with someone else. I say this guy is B+ or A-.

Originally posted by Q99
With examples as to why, either from the series or in how we do things.

Let's be clear that you did nott.

Originally posted by Q99
Yay, concise arguments 🙂

lol

Originally posted by Q99
Only ones from pretty short list, like clones and body-flicker. Other jutsu only come to those who study that area.

I disagree. Unless you think they have to attend school for all those years and then take a test just for a very short list of jutsu.

Originally posted by Q99
'Duration' is a legitimate argument, you know. It takes more power to do something over time than just once, and she did it over a lot of time.

And I've already expressed why I don't think it's having to use much chakra...hence why your argument just boils down to "nuh-uh".

Originally posted by Q99
No, she has many more than Tenten uses when just attacking that guy that Jiraiya was puppeting. She had many more when she rushed Madara the first time. Her amount used on Jiraiya which he avoided was a whole lot too, looked to be over a hundred, and that seems to be a basic attack that she just flicked out.

I disagree. I think Ten-Ten's require much more chakra because they are more complex in form, larger, and have more mass.

The numbers are definitely in Konan's favor, but not chakra-wise.

Originally posted by Q99
... when I say "she surrounds people," I was talking about her paper too.

And I was excluding the "too" portion and saying it's only her paper. Then I made a crude joke which still makes me laugh. 😆

Originally posted by Q99
So I guess we're agreed on this one. She can surround people with her attacks.

Yes, people who have a speed rating of 4 or less can be surrounded..but some 4's may be able to evade. But that's generally the cut-off I'd like to give.

Jiraiya just rolled a couple of times to evade what looks like a fast attack. That was his base form. I'd like to think he's one of the fastest ninja in the series while in sage form.

Originally posted by Q99
Your explanation was Jiraiya (a 4.5 himself) could avoid one of her attacks, therefore she's slow enough that she can be blitzed?

Sorry, I don't know *what* to say except 'nuh-uh.' That doesn't follow. Just because someone's attacks are fast doesn't mean they can't be avoided by someone else who's fast, plenty of high-speed people have their attacked dodged. Nothing about that screams 'blitz-able'.

lol, you made a joke. Finally.

And, to your points, I disagree based on information I have presented already. To recap, I'd put Madara at a 4 or 4.5 (4.5 seems too much, imo...I'd like to say he's about a 4.2).

The rest is implicit and has been stated. No need for me to rehash.

Originally posted by Q99
Well, that's exactly my point: You're claiming it's PIS, but it also fits very well if we just don't assume that she's too slow to respond.

You mean Madara is too slow to respond, right? 😉

Originally posted by Q99
Given we have two explanations, one PIS and one not, and the later one when said attack would take twice as long as the absorptions he had to abort multiple times for time-reasons in the fight, why force a PIS?

I've clearly explained how it's PIS even including the two good explanations given. Hint: it's because of what he could do before the "2 explanations" have weight.

Originally posted by Q99
If something is PIS only if you assume something that isn't demonstrated, then it's not PIS.

No, something is PIS when it requires stupidty in the plot in order to further it.

This is an example of CIS turning into PIS just simply to have a fight with Konan. She had fans. He couldn't let her go down like a punk birch.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Indeed. They're sparse.
Doesn't change the fact that Genins beat extremely powerful opponents, thus defeating your point. vin

Nah, Impossible. Itachi is only wrong when it comes to Sasuke, and let's face it, everyone's wrong when it comes to Sasuke, seeing as he's now more unpredictable than Naruto. 😛

Nobody cares about the details. Hinata or Sasuke. Choose, ma boi. vin

But good. 😛
Konohamaru didn't keep that Pain down and Naruto hasn't really beaten many guys by himself. 😛

Where do you think Sasuke is going now?

Considering I want the two to produce a babeh of epic proportions, SasuHina. 😛

No, something is PIS when it requires stupidty in the plot in order to further it.

This is an example of CIS turning into PIS just simply to have a fight with Konan. She had fans. He couldn't let her go down like a punk birch.

He decides the power of people.

This is an example of having her not go down easily simply by having her be too strong to go down easily.

That's not PIS or CIS, that is Kishimoto deciding she's that strong.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
But good. 😛
Konohamaru didn't keep that Pain down and Naruto hasn't really beaten many guys by himself. 😛

Where do you think Sasuke is going now?

Considering I want the two to produce a babeh of epic proportions, SasuHina. 😛

Only sometimes. 😛
Still beat it. Still beat them. 😛

Outside. vin

But you can only be one person.
Hmm, I wonder how Naruto would take it.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Only sometimes. 😛
Still beat it. Still beat them. 😛

Outside. vin

But you can only be one person.
Hmm, I wonder how Naruto would take it.

Like Sasuke's lame moments? 😛
It was weak. And nah.

Where outside? 😮

Then Minato, obviously.
How would Naruto take SasuHina if by some miracle it actually happened? He'd probably be content but jealous of Hinata.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Like Sasuke's lame moments? 😛
It was weak. And nah.

Where outside? 😮

Then Minato, obviously.
How would Naruto take SasuHina if by some miracle it actually happened? He'd probably be content but jealous of Hinata.

Yep, Naruto's cool moments are sparse like Sasuke's laem moments.
Stronger than any Chuunin. Yah. He beat Kakuzu twice, beat Pain as far as the manga is concerned, and would have easily pwned A. vin

Dunno. I just told you he was unpredictable. 😛

Hinata? Good.
Hmm. Wonder how Neji would take it.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Stronger than any Chuunin. Yah. He beat Kakuzu twice, beat Pain as far as the manga is concerned, and would have easily pwned A. vin

Dunno. I just told you he was unpredictable. 😛

Hinata? Good.
Hmm. Wonder how Neji would take it.

No names and Ebisu. Twice? And he had help in said fight. Naw, Pain won. And indeed, he'd have beaten A.

Best guess.

Nah, Minato.
He'd probably wonder how that happened. But he'd mostly be mad because their kids would have Sharingan/Byakugan.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
No names and Ebisu. Twice? And he had help in said fight. Naw, Pain won. And indeed, he'd have beaten A.

Best guess.

Nah, Minato.
He'd probably wonder how that happened. But he'd mostly be mad because their kids would have Sharingan/Byakugan.

Ebisu's a Special Jounin. Took out two of Kakuzu's hearts. Counts as twice.
Like the genins that beat two of the Sound 4 didn't have help.
Nah, Naruto won that fight. Not fair and square of course, far from it, but he still won, so it still counts, technically.

For a walk? 😛

Minato wasn't one of the choices, and Hinata's closer to Minato, so Hinata it is.
I think that he'd blow his lid. Everybody knows that he has repressed sexual urges towards Hinata.