The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by Q99
Not really. Ittan, a fairly no-name in the ambush squad, was able to move large amounts of Earth up and down like that without much problem.

It's fairly high chakra, but it's not as big as actively controlling billions of objects for ten minutes and holding back a lake seemingly as just a side-thing.

Yes, that's who I'm talking about. Ittan. And, so you're going to discount one of the best chakra feats in the whole series by pretending it doesn't take much chakra to move earth?

Get out of my house. My wooden house built by Yamato.

And, I disagree with the "actively controlling billions of objects." She was passively controlling most of them in a field of TK. She only actively controlled the ones she was detonating and even then, she was just detonating a bunch at once. It's quite sloppy if you think about it a bit more with a clear head. Effective...but sloppy. Similar to Gaara's sand.

Originally posted by Q99
Does pre-prep means the paper moves without chakra? Triggers without chakra? Holds back the lake without chakra? All for ten minutes.

It certainly takes out the largest chakra consuming aspect of it: creating the paper.

Originally posted by Q99
No, it does not. It means she had the tags.

Yes it does. Nya nya. 😬

Originally posted by Q99
Uh, you're ignoring feats/assuming weaknesses.

No you're ignoring feats and weaknesses and assuming strengths.

Originally posted by Q99
If I talk about low-stamina Naruto, I'm not talking about canon Naruto. Poor swordsskill Bee, I'm not talking canon Suigetsu. Gaara has a weakness to bugs and earth jutsu, I'm not talking canon Gaara, and so on.

Great...so ...

You're just saying what I said, right? Except being petty about it and not using proper comparisons again (you love your strawmans).

Here's a better comparison to what I did:

Jiraiya would not have been able to defeat Pain if he had known Pain's secret.

And just so you don't do your ugly strawman crap...here's my argument for comparison:

Madara should not have gotten hurt at all by Konan because he could have easily warped out in the very beginning...then baped her from behind.

Originally posted by Q99
Also most S- characters and she'd beat many S characters as well.

Also she'd beat the A+ characters too.

I disagree.

Only with prep would I agree. 🙂

No you're ignoring feats and weaknesses and assuming strengths.

Nope. We've seen that her clouds-of-paper are hard to avoid, we've seen almost no-one with oil, etc. etc..

This is how it works with everyone else.

It certainly takes out the largest chakra consuming aspect of it: creating the paper.

Yamato didn't make the cliff, just moved it, and the wood sprung from soil in the earth.

Still more work by Konan there, who made all the paper appear in that location. Also, I would think holding back the water, which goes down so far we can't even see it, would be more chakra than just making the material. There's active resistance there.

You're just saying what I said, right? Except being petty about it and not using proper comparisons again (you love your strawmans).

It's not a strawman, it's a comparison by example. They're two different things.

A strawman is where someone says what you're saying.

An example is when someone says something and compares it to what you're saying.

If the examples sound off to you, good, because that is the point I'm trying to make. That what you are doing is just as off as them.

Madara should not have gotten hurt at all by Konan because he could have easily warped out in the very beginning...then baped her from behind.

Unless she has the reflexes to do something about that, which is consistent with her shown fights.

Your way, creates an inconsistency. You openly say so.

The other way, does not.

Given a choice between consistency and not, we use not.

And she NEVER surrounded Madara: she used a wall of paper that she had pre-prepared to specifically counter his porting.

No, she surrounded him the first time she rushed him too, the no-prep attack.

And with the wall, she still had to move them around him... and she got a tag onto his leg when attacking with just a dozen or so, before the main assault.

So it's pretty much two-for-two, and it doesn't even require a ton to do it.

Are there characters faster than her? Sure. Can she hit people faster than her with her attacks? Also yes, that's the advantage of so many projectiles. And of course her primary defense doesn't rely on speed anyway, but she's never shown to be particularly slow to begin with and every other Akatsuki member is faster than Hidan, who could keep up with Kakashi.

Oh, and when getting to Jiraiya, she got there much before Animal Pain from the same starting position. So yea, speed's pretty much a 4 minimum.

--

One final thing: Nagato though Konan might end up with a chance to kill Jiraiya if they fought.

Originally posted by Q99
Nope. We've seen that her clouds-of-paper are hard to avoid, we've seen almost no-one with oil, etc. etc..

This is how it works with everyone else.

"You're the one claiming it's rare and no one can do it.

I'm claiming that we don't know that and we have no idea if oil stuff is rare in addition to other smart ninja (smarter than Jiraiya) being able to deduce the same.

Prove to me that it is limited to very specific users. There exists no such evidence, btw...so you can't prove it.

Again, our argument is reduced to two baseless points of view with me having a better logical ground to stand on."

Originally posted by Q99
Yamato didn't make the cliff, just moved it, and the wood sprung from soil in the earth.

He moved it and then created the giant water fall.

I think that is a far superior feat to Konan's lake splitter...based on mass because both are virtually TK.

Originally posted by Q99
Still more work by Konan there, who made all the paper appear in that location. Also, I would think holding back the water, which goes down so far we can't even see it, would be more chakra than just making the material. There's active resistance there.

She never summoned. I'm not sure if you are trying to pull a fast one or if you genuinely thought she summoned them....she just had them in the lake, itself.

http://www.mangareader.net/93-57323-16/naruto/chapter-509.html

She doesn't make a summon hand seal of any kind: she extends her arms to do TK like she has every other time.

Originally posted by Q99
It's not a strawman, it's a comparison by example. They're two different things.

A strawman is where someone says what you're saying.

An example is when someone says something and compares it to what you're saying.

If the examples sound off to you, good, because that is the point I'm trying to make. That what you are doing is just as off as them.

You don't know what a strawman is.

"A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"😉, and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position."

What did you do? You misrepresented my position and acted as though you refuted that misrepresented position without actually having refuted my real position, at all.

In fact, you made a better case for why Konan should be brought down and why Suigetsu should remain as A.

You don't realize this because your logic, on this particular point is not necessarily "great"...it's good, for sure, but not great.

Originally posted by Q99
Unless she has the reflexes to do something about that, which is consistent with her shown fights.

You mean having reflexes enough to prevent herself from being "saved" by Madara and Madara getting blown to bits?

Wait, she didn't have the reflexes for that. Minato did, for sure. She doesn't.

Minato would be the top-tier with Naruto in the reflexes department. So I will agree that that particular comparison is not very good in making my point. However, it does illustrate that there is a large class of difference between Minato's reflexes and Konan's, despite you trying to pass of Konan as having super awesome reflexes.

Originally posted by Q99
Your way, creates an inconsistency. You openly say so.

Did I?

Or is this another strawman here you misrepresent my position and argue against it (reading further, it is).

Originally posted by Q99
The other way, does not.

Given a choice between consistency and not, we use not. [/B][/QUOTE]

My way does not create inconsistancy. Not even a little bit.

"Again, that is a strawman on your part. You did not properly represent my side before arguing against that improper representation.

Correct interpretation:

Madara ports in. He finds out she's against him.

He ports away.

He ports behind her.

R@pe.

End of.

We already know she's susceptible to fast r@pings.

But, no, you will instead misrepresent my perspective because you are severely lacking in any sort of legitimate rebuttal (you can't...my complaint was sound from the beginning). You do it this way: "The attacks already begin. You know...attacks that were designed to keep him from porting while his intangible form is being used. I don't care that there was a massive amount of time before the attacks started...I'm going to pretend that you only meant after the attacks started so I can also pretend that you're dumb and come up with non-existant problems in the plot...cause Kishimoto can't do any wrong."

Originally posted by Q99
No, she surrounded him the first time she rushed him too, the no-prep attack.

She she surrounded him with paper, no doubt. That's...what I said she did. And it WAS a prep attack. She prepared that attack for Madara because of the time delay...but Madara was too fast. She went to plan B.

She laced her paper with explosive tags BEFORE THE FIGHT.

Doing something to maximize the results of an outcome: preparation.

This is the end of this particular dicussion as it is literally not debatable. I will not respond this type of silliness anymore. 😐

Originally posted by Q99
And with the wall, she still had to move them around him... and she got a tag onto his leg when attacking with just a dozen or so, before the main assault.

So it's pretty much two-for-two, and it doesn't even require a ton to do it.

Are there characters faster than her? Sure. Can she hit people faster than her with her attacks? Also yes, that's the advantage of so many projectiles. And of course her primary defense doesn't rely on speed anyway, but she's never shown to be particularly slow to begin with and every other Akatsuki member is faster than Hidan, who could keep up with Kakashi.

Oh, and when getting to Jiraiya, she got there much before Animal Pain from the same starting position. So yea, speed's pretty much a 4 minimum.

--

One final thing: Nagato though Konan might end up with a chance to kill Jiraiya if they fought.

On your points: pretend she "landed" a tag on his leg...but why did he still have is leg? That point's trash. 🙂

She's not a sensor type...having so many projectiles can only get you so far. Ask TenTen.

That's a logical fallacy about Hidan. Suigetsu could "keep up with" A, but there's no denying that Suigetsu is not as fast as A.

Also, it only takes two rolls on the ground to avoid her "uber fast" paper attacks. Guess that line of reasoning fails, as well, for you? He wasn't even in sage mode.

This also takes a giant crap on the idea that the "oil" deduction is unique to just Jiraiya as he seems to make the observation rather non-chalantly and states it as if it was something everyone would know.

She flew there. The animal pain cannot fly...she can. He had to jump through stuff in a large industrial-like city. The fastest way to get there would have been flying. Nice try, though. I guess you thought that idea sounded better before posting it?

Finally, Pain never says he could kill Jiraiya. He simply said if she gets the chance to kill him. Reality: that's like me telling a friend "if you win the lottery with the $5 I gave you, send me some of the winnings." Very slim chance...but he was still staying positive. 🙂

Originally posted by dadudemon
I do not disagree.

In fact, I was implicitely stating that his strategic toolbox is much bigger than Minato's because of that.

Kakashi was 12-13 at the time, though. 😬

And, lol...I like Itachi, nao. 😮

Incorrect. Go back and re-read what I had said about it. (I will requote it for you, if you want.)

Just because he might have more tools to use, that doesn't equate to being strategically smarter.

And a genius. And the inventor of the technique. He should have been able to see the weakness but he didn't. Minato saw it for a second and did. Minato also saw through Madara's technique faster than Kakashi has and determined how to beat it.

You said anyone with battle smarts like Minato could deduce the oil weakness. You said half of A and most of S would fit this category.

1. Minato is a genius. Not many are around his degree of battle intelligence. Except Itachi. Though one could make a case for Sasuke too.

2. No ninja, except for those who can summon toads, have shown to carry oil around. Oil wouldn't even be an option so why would they look at this flying paper woman and instantly conclude that they should use Oil, which they aren't likely to have.

3. Konan is S class because she has a handful of supportive moves and because she has by far one of the best feats in the manga for a non-Bijuu character. Her feat was incredibly massive and anyone with half the ability to pull it off is going to be ranked fairly high.

She is S class, prep or no prep.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
What douchey things has he done?
Lame kids.

But, he knows things only Madara would know and the Kyuubi seemed to recognize him.

We haven't seen Tobi with a MS or EMS. So I don't think it is connected to the Space Time technique.
He did. Probably could have fought better had he not been so excited about Susano'o.
The dreams were not wet though. 😮

Have you been reading the Naruto manga? If so, you should already know the numerous douchey things Naruto has done. 😛
Sure they're laem, but they're still pretty powerful.

It's connected to the Sharingan in his right eye that he values so much, and as of now, regular Sharingans do not give one S/T jutsu. MS on the other hand, does.
Yeah. Must have thought he was invincible with it up since Itachi's tanked Kirin and everything. He noticed the huge chakra drain too late.
Stop hiding the truth. You have wet dreams about Sasuke and his eyes. vin

Also yeah, Minato's smarter than Kakashi. facepalm2
Then again, overall, he's smarter than anyone else, except for Itachi of course. awesome

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Have you been reading the Naruto manga? If so, you should already know the numerous douchey things Naruto has done. 😛
Sure they're laem, but they're still pretty powerful.

It's connected to the Sharingan in his right eye that he values so much, and as of now, regular Sharingans do not give one S/T jutsu. MS on the other hand, does.
Yeah. Must have thought he was invincible with it up since Itachi's tanked Kirin and everything. He noticed the huge chakra drain too late.
Stop hiding the truth. You have wet dreams about Sasuke and his eyes. vin

Also yeah, Minato's smarter than Kakashi. facepalm2
Then again, overall, he's smarter than anyone else, except for Itachi of course. awesome

I have. But I want to know the ones you've taken notice of over the years. 😛
Got beat by Genin.

Well, we haven't seen the MS if he is using it. Though how Madara could still see if he is using a MS technique is beyond me. Unless it's EMS, and I don't think it is.
Indeed. And noes I don't. I'm just secretly an Uchiha. 😛

I actually don't know who'd be smarter between Itachi and Minato. Would be interesting.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I have. But I want to know the ones you've taken notice of over the years. 😛
Got beat by Genin.

Well, we haven't seen the MS if he is using it. Though how Madara could still see if he is using a MS technique is beyond me. Unless it's EMS, and I don't think it is.
Indeed. And noes I don't. I'm just secretly an Uchiha. 😛

I actually don't know who'd be smarter between Itachi and Minato. Would be interesting.

Can't remember right now. 😛
Multiple Genin & 1 Chuunin. In addition, technically speaking, Orochimaru, Deidara, Pain, Danzou & A were all beaten by Genin. vin

Why wouldn't it be EMS? Madara is known to have attained the EMS, Itachi said his eyes remain as powerful as they were, and you think he's the original Madara. :3
You mean you're secretly a Sasuke fangurl, like Sakura. 😛

Me too. I'm an Itachi fanboi, but I like Minato too. Both of 'em are uber enough that I wouldn't want to compare them anyway, seriously at least. 😛

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Can't remember right now. 😛
Multiple Genin & 1 Chuunin. In addition, technically speaking, Orochimaru, Deidara, Pain, Danzou & A were all beaten by Genin. vin

Me too. I'm an Itachi fanboi, but I like Minato too. Both of 'em are uber enough that I wouldn't want to compare them anyway, seriously at least. 😛

Oh...I would just like to coment that Orochmari was kind of finished off by Itachi if that remidies his defeat. Oh and A never actually lost to said Genin in the technical sense.....even though he would've lost had Naruto fought seriously.

Also both Itachi and Minato f@cked up the tow main characters to the dispicable people they are today. And yes Minato did screw up Naruto....I can explain latter.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Can't remember right now. 😛
Multiple Genin & 1 Chuunin. In addition, technically speaking, Orochimaru, Deidara, Pain, Danzou & A were all beaten by Genin. vin

Why wouldn't it be EMS? Madara is known to have attained the EMS, Itachi said his eyes remain as powerful as they were, and you think he's the original Madara. :3
You mean you're secretly a Sasuke fangurl, like Sakura. 😛

Me too. I'm an Itachi fanboi, but I like Minato too. Both of 'em are uber enough that I wouldn't want to compare them anyway, seriously at least. 😛

To be fair, it isn't Minato's fault that the citizens of Konoha are beligerent assholes.

Originally posted by Nephthys
To be fair, it isn't Minato's fault that the citizens of Konoha are beligerent assholes.

I not talking about that....well actually that could've been solved by either Jiraiya or Hiruzen but that's another issue.

I'm talking about Minato giving some speech about having faith in Naruto which in turn set Naruto on track to the annoying character he's now become. His mom just made it even worse but oh well.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Oh...I would just like to coment that Orochmari was kind of finished off by Itachi if that remidies his defeat. Oh and A never actually lost to said Genin in the technical sense.....even though he would've lost had Naruto fought seriously.

Also both Itachi and Minato f@cked up the tow main characters to the dispicable people they are today. And yes Minato did screw up Naruto....I can explain latter.

Nah, it does not remedy his defeat. He was pwned thoroughly by the genin in question.
Was talking about Sasuke as well. A would have had his ass burnt off had Gaara not saved it. awesome
Also, let's not forget Zabuza. The rest of the ninja world seems to think that a genin killed him. vin

Originally posted by King Kandy
Madara has a collection of eyes, i'm guessing he's replaced them many times. We know that he was able to use a technique like Koto Amatsukami back in the day, but still wanted desperately to get Shisui's eye in the present. We know he's burned at least one eye from Izanagi. I would wager his original EMS is long gone by this point.

He's burned one eye, specifically the left one, which means he values his right one a lot; enough to keep it when he retrieves the Rinnegan.
That Koto tech could have also been tied to his left eye, and his lack of the tech right now, would mean that he likely swapped it or sacrificed it for Izanagi, assuming it too had the same drawbacks as Koto Amatsukami.

konan could take current naruto

yeah i said it

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Nah, it does not remedy his defeat. He was pwned thoroughly by the genin in question.
Was talking about Sasuke as well. A would have had his ass burnt off had Gaara not saved it. awesome
Also, let's not forget Zabuza. The rest of the ninja world seems to think that a genin killed him. vin

To be more specific Sasuke beat Orochimaru in a genjutsu battle. It'd be more legit had he fought the version that took on 4-tailed Naruto.

Meh...not sure if his Enton could make the flames tangible enough to pierce A at that point so the kick still would've connected.

Which is funny considering he gets no credit for suppressing the Shukaku 🙁 and yes he technically did since Gaara wasn't in control.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
To be more specific Sasuke beat Orochimaru in a genjutsu battle. It'd be more legit had he fought the version that took on 4-tailed Naruto.

Meh...not sure if his Enton could make the flames tangible enough to pierce A at that point so the kick still would've connected.

Which is funny considering he gets no credit for suppressing the Shukaku 🙁 and yes he technically did since Gaara wasn't in control.

Well, not really a genjutsu battle, but a battle of will-power. Plus with that feat, Sasuke is now a dimension buster. vin
Yeah, but Orochimaru said that Sasuke was >>> 3 Tailed Naruto, so Sasuke would likely have still won. awesome

Ehh, shape manipulation has made wind tangible enough to cut through trees, has made electricty tangible enough to pierce through rocks. Those Flames likely underwent the same thing, became powerful enough to pierce shit. Besides, they went through A's Raiton shroud easily.

No one knew what he did I guess.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Can't remember right now. 😛
Multiple Genin & 1 Chuunin. In addition, technically speaking, Orochimaru, Deidara, Pain, Danzou & A were all beaten by Genin. vin

Why wouldn't it be EMS? Madara is known to have attained the EMS, Itachi said his eyes remain as powerful as they were, and you think he's the original Madara. :3
You mean you're secretly a Sasuke fangurl, like Sakura. 😛

Me too. I'm an Itachi fanboi, but I like Minato too. Both of 'em are uber enough that I wouldn't want to compare them anyway, seriously at least. 😛

Well personally, I though he had a nice pose before he jumped into the sun.
Sasuke is a Rogue, not a genin. He just went Rogue as a genin. 😛

I don't know where Itachi said that, but it's been repeated that Madara is a shell of his former self and we haven't seen him use an EMS yet.
I'm a boy though. 😮

You Itachi, me Minato? awesome

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well personally, I though he had a nice pose before he jumped into the sun.
Sasuke is a Rogue, not a genin. He just went Rogue as a genin. 😛

I don't know where Itachi said that, but it's been repeated that Madara is a shell of his former self and we haven't seen him use an EMS yet.
I'm a boy though. 😮

You Itachi, me Minato? awesome

That was nice, but his words made it laem.
But his rank is genin. Also, Naruto's rank is genin. 😛

He said it to Sasuke.
Madara could be lying. Or it's because he's a 90+ year old man now. 😛
Fine. Boy with fangirlish tendencies.

Nah. Me Itachi, you Sasuke. vin

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
That was nice, but his words made it laem.
But his rank is genin. Also, Naruto's rank is genin. 😛

He said it to Sasuke.
Madara could be lying. Or it's because he's a 90+ year old man now. 😛
Fine. Boy with fangirlish tendencies.

Nah. Me Itachi, you Sasuke. vin

True. Strictly in it for the pose though.
Was. Now it is Rogue Ninja. awesome

Well, maybe Itachi is wrong?
I may accept that.

But Minato and I has more in common. The self esteem issues and such.