Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Uh.....What?
You....Can't be serious right? Surely you see that what happened was a Surprise attack, not due to super speed. Right? The scene is identical to what happened to Jiraiya after all, another surprise attack.
Yeah, I'm totes jokin'.
It's a speed blitz, plain and simple.
I'd be more inclined to believe "worn out and couldn't react" reason if you had presented it. But you failed meh.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I ish not. I've posted examples of both speed blitz and surprise attacks. Clearly what Madara did goes into the later. A back stab. Otherwise known as a sneak attack.
It looks like a speed blitz, and is a speed blitz.
But, of course, you think that what Sasuke did to Naruto in their first time skip meeting was trickery, too, right? awesome
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
[BCan't seem to find where it blinded him.Not....really.
Then why didn't Pain himself dodge it? [/B]
Go back one page and you'll see a wave of water block is view...next page...he magically gets paper shuriken in his chest.
Yeah, really. What I said.
I explained why in the same portion. 😬
Originally posted by Q99
Please.... please don't lie to my face/screen, Dadudemon. It doesn't suit you."Every time you say something, I'll just lower my estimate more," is just petulant.
That's exactly what I had meant prior. Just clarifying it for you. And you're getting mad, bro. Calm down.
Originally posted by Q99
No, you started out by claiming she was mid-A, that was what started this up.
And the very next post, I believe I said I found evidence of on panel "S-Class" status.
Originally posted by Q99
Konan also reacted to attacks just as fast. Nice of you to leave that out.
But she didn't. Nice of you to make stuff up?
Originally posted by Q99
Look, here's the structure of the argument from my POV:D- "Argument."
Q/A- "Counterargument with examples."
D- "Response."
Q/A- "Point out how that doesn't resolve problems examples illustrate,"
D- "Ah, but I already answered that with Response."
Q/A- "Response doesn't include all issues brought up with counterargument, so that doesn't solve the problem."
D- "Still, Response!"
Q/A- "Still leaving stuff out."
D- "Bias!"
Q- "??"
And here's your version corrected:
D- "Argument."
Q/A- "Counterargument with examples."
D- "Response with reasons why your examples are biased"
Q/A- "Repeat the same points as thought they make a difference while ignoring that they were already destroyed"
D- "Ah, but I already answered that with Response."
Q/A- "Incorrectly believes not all points were countered and injects anger and bias even more into posts."
D- "Breaks it down into more concise arguments and rehashes previously stated ones. Shows where clearly biased, yet again."
Q/A- "Talks in circle and speaks in bias, even more. This time, it's much more obvious to the point of both parties facepalming (you'll go back, one day, and facepalm when you see how obvious your bias was.)"
D- "Bias!"
Q- "Rages and starts insulting and taking the conversation into other threads in a serious manner"
Originally posted by Q99
The Bias claim seems to be based on nothing except the fact we disagree with you.
No, that's not it at all. I've outlined why it's biased and pointed out each time you were clearly being biased.
Originally posted by Q99
That is very bad form, if you just stop before that it's 'Ok, we disagree, I think you're viewing this from entirely the wrong angle, but that happens,' that's one thing, but that's moving it off of 'arguing' and into the realm of 'insulting people because they disagree with you.'
I agree that it's bad form of you to ignore where I've pointed out your bias probably 7-9 times now and then say I've just made empty claims.
It would be one thing if I had not already admitted that she is S-Class and already politely stated that her feats are not S-Class. But you literally raged at me because of it. You could have easily dropped it and stated, "We'll have to agree to disagree."
And if you think I consider being a fanboy an "insult" of any weight...that's a bit ridiculous because I readily admit to my very own Naruto fanboyism. Hell, I'm a StarWars fanboy, too. There's tons of shit I'm a fanboy off. And I fully expect people to call me out on it when my fanboyism is showing.
Originally posted by Q99
You're still not taking into account Aura's and my arguments, you chose to get insulting, and every time we post more stuff you respond by adjusting your argument downward regardless of content.
I disagree: I have addressed it. You bring me nothing new. Aura has. Your posts got worse and worse with obvious fanboyism and are getting riddled with rage and insults. But if you think someone calling you out on your fanboy statements is insulting, I'll stop using "fanboy" and stick with "bias."
That's exactly what I had meant prior. Just clarifying it for you. And you're getting mad, bro. Calm down.
I'm getting more... disappointed, honestly.
And the very next post, I believe I said I found evidence of on panel "S-Class" status.
While talking of how an A could beat her and still maintaining A-level ability.
But she didn't. Nice of you to make stuff up?
She did, as has been cited several times, you just labeled all the incidents "biased," and calling it PIS rather than refute them with addressing the incident in question and counter argument.
Q- "Rages and starts insulting and taking the conversation into other threads in a serious manner"
Uh, what? It hasn't been taken to other threads. And you started with the insults really early on, in the second 'D' in your scenario.
And here's your version corrected:D- "Argument."
Q/A- "Counterargument with examples."
D- "Response with reasons why your examples are biased"
Q/A- "Repeat the same points as thought they make a difference while ignoring that they were already destroyed"
An accusation of bias is not a refutation of evidence. It cannot destroy an argument.
Refutation of evidence requires evidence.
D- "Breaks it down into more concise arguments and rehashes previously stated ones. Shows where clearly biased, yet again."
But you fail to address some points completely (not even with an accusation of bias), as several people pointed out, and again, an accusation of bias is not a proof.
Q/A- "Talks in circle and speaks in bias, even more. This time, it's much more obvious to the point of both parties facepalming (you'll go back, one day, and facepalm when you see how obvious your bias was.)"
Meh, I throw that back around at you.
Aura's posted evidence, Kandy's posted evidence, you've responded to some arguments with nothing but "that's just biased."
It doesn't matter what you think you've got in an argument if you don't back it up with evidence.
I disagree: I have addressed it. You bring me nothing new. Aura has.
I've been going over the original ones (and, notably, bringing up more examples and parallel situations) because they haven't been refuted with evidence, they've merely been accused of being biased.
Demonstrating one isn't biased works just as well as bringing up new ones. Well, if the person's willing to listen at least.
Your posts got worse and worse with obvious fanboyism and are getting riddled with rage and insults. But if you think someone calling you out on your fanboy statements is insulting, I'll stop using "fanboy" and stick with "bias."
Eh, I've lately mostly been trying to convince you what's wrong with your 'bias' argument. Should I not bother?
One final bit of fact:
Hidan is stated outright to be the slowest Akatsuki. Hidan is a 3.5 and unblitzable by Kakashi.
That gives us a firm low-end minimum for anyone in Akatsuki, and also by extension means that no-one in Akatsuki is easily blitzable by anyone who isn't faster than Kakashi, who is known for his speed.
Originally posted by Q99
I'm getting more... disappointed, honestly.While talking of how an A could beat her and still maintaining A-level ability.
She did, as has been cited several times, you just labeled all the incidents "biased," and calling it PIS rather than refute them with addressing the incident in question and counter argument.
Uh, what? It hasn't been taken to other threads. And you started with the insults really early on, in the second 'D' in your scenario.
An accusation of bias is not a refutation of evidence. It cannot destroy an argument.
Refutation of evidence requires evidence.
But you fail to address some points completely (not even with an accusation of bias), as several people pointed out, and again, an accusation of bias is not a proof.
Meh, I throw that back around at you.
Aura's posted evidence, Kandy's posted evidence, you've responded to some arguments with nothing but "that's just biased."
It doesn't matter what you think you've got in an argument if you don't back it up with evidence.
I've been going over the original ones (and, notably, bringing up more examples and parallel situations) because they haven't been refuted with evidence, they've merely been accused of being biased.
Demonstrating one isn't biased works just as well as bringing up new ones. Well, if the person's willing to listen at least.
Eh, I've lately mostly been trying to convince you what's wrong with your 'bias' argument. Should I not bother?
It is unnecessary to form a reply to a biased statement because the bias is simply not true: it's an exaggeration.
I've responded to all evidence. If you think there's something I've left out, bring it up again.
But pretty much the rest of your post has turned into a pissing match, of which I am not interested.
Bring it back on topic if you wish to discuss it further.
Originally posted by Q99
One final bit of fact:Hidan is stated outright to be the slowest Akatsuki. Hidan is a 3.5 and unblitzable by Kakashi.
That gives us a firm low-end minimum for anyone in Akatsuki, and also by extension means that no-one in Akatsuki is easily blitzable by anyone who isn't faster than Kakashi, who is known for his speed.
Logical fallacy: reacting to an attack and attacking quickly are not mutually exclusive.
Hidan has a Taijutsu rating of a 4.5: almost max. It'd be hard to speed blitz someone with that high of a taijutsu rating.
I know you knew that already because you're smarter about this stuff than I am. I am assuming that you didn't count on me knowing enough to form a proper reply? Granted, I've given you reason enough in the past with my stupid forgetfulness to make you believe you could pull a fast one on me.
However, even if you think of exceptions, that still doesn't change what I said. Exceptions are exceptions for a reason.
Originally posted by danteiscool
well, now the new chapter was certainly interesting. sure didn't expect that to be the reason why the 3rd Raikage had a scar, but it does makes sense. and Naruto finally uses sage mode again.
Spoiler:
Yea, and we finally see one of Sage mode's advantages. More precise sensor readings, even if it can't do emotions.Naruto dropped out of Kyuubi-mode too, slow down the chakra usage.
And that really is an embarrassing way to get a scar ^^ It did sound kinda odd to be embarrassed by getting hurt by a biju, but stabbing yourself in the chest? That'll do it. Explains why it's in that shape too.
It is unnecessary to form a reply to a biased statement because the bias is simply not true: it's an exaggeration.
You need to prove it's an exaggeration though, otherwise it's just slinging a word around in an entirely unconvincing manner.
I've responded to all evidence. If you think there's something I've left out, bring it up again.
I did, and you just accused me of not bringing up new stuff.
You've made a neet little box for yourself. If I address arguments that have been brought up, you've already addressed it and it's pointless. If it's something new, then it's just another biased argument and it soon goes back into the first one. If I address the accusation of bias itself, then it's just a 'pissing match'.
All you're telling me is you won't seriously take into consideration my arguments no matter what sector they're in.
Logical fallacy: reacting to an attack and attacking quickly are not mutually exclusive.Hidan has a Taijutsu rating of a 4.5: almost max. It'd be hard to speed blitz someone with that high of a taijutsu rating.
So in short, we both agree speed itself is not the question, she's fast enough, the question is one of skill, yes?
However, even if you think of exceptions, that still doesn't change what I said. Exceptions are exceptions for a reason.
What makes you think the slow examples aren't the exceptions instead of the fast ones?
So we can confirm that Sage Mode DOES have a superior reason for existing: it is "faster" in h2h and allows for better reaction time.
So what does the Kyuubi chakra mode do other than give greater straight line speed and evil chakra sensing? I suppose it gives a much longer "sage mode" type of mode...in that it gives speed and more chakra. In fact, it would appear that it gives a speed boost, chakra sensing, and chakra boost.
I would like to rate it as follows:
KCM = Kyuubi Chakra Mode.
SM = Sage Mode
Speed Boost: KCM
Taijutsu Boost: SM
Chakra Boost: KCM
Chakra Sensing: SM, but KCM does offer a super awesome chakra sensing mode that allows or sensing evil chakra.
Durability Boost: SM
Strength Boost: SM
Overall, it would appear that the KCM is weaker than the SM boost. However, the KCM offers all the same things the SM does, but just not as strong in some areas and stronger in others. So, overall, I can see why Naruto would pick the KCM.
What do you guys think?
So what does the Kyuubi chakra mode do other than give greater straight line speed and evil chakra sensing? I suppose it gives a much longer "sage mode" type of mode...in that it gives speed and more chakra. In fact, it would appear that it gives a speed boost, chakra sensing, and chakra boost.
Extra hands allowing a dozen rasengan variants and plenty of melee tricks.
Lol
Nevermind, pretty sure Minato woould beat Raikage now. Dodai is cool though.
And wow, Mizukage is badass.
It looks like a speed blitz, and is a speed blitz.But, of course, you think that what Sasuke did to Naruto in their first time skip meeting was trickery, too, right?
I....I don't know how to explain this to you any better.
If Person A thought Person B was dead, and Person B got up while A wasn't looking and stabbed him in the back, that would be a surprise attack. Person A was caught off guard, not blitzed
No. Because Naruto was looking directly at Sasuke(Konan thought Madara was dead, and was not looking at him) before Sasuke blitzed him from the front. Madara snuck up on a tired, off gaurd Konan. He didn't straight up blitz her.
Go back one page and you'll see a wave of water block is view...next page...he magically gets paper shuriken in his chest.Yeah, really. What I said.
I explained why in the same portion.
His veiw to the side..but the shuriken didn't come from that direction so...it doesn't matter.
In what way did Sasori trick them there? 😐
You explained that a big creature like that could not dodge the attack. However, that would not stop Pain from dodging the attack by abandoning said creature.
I'm somewhat disappointed we never got to see Raikage's black lightning.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
By the way, we can all agree that since Mizukage is the last man standing, clearly he is the best among them! woot
Dunno, Muu only went down when a 3rd S-class joined in.
Though interesting Mizukage seems to have used a non-genjutsu move. Let's see what he's got!
Originally posted by dadudemon
So we can confirm that Sage Mode DOES have a superior reason for existing: it is "faster" in h2h and allows for better reaction time.So what does the Kyuubi chakra mode do other than give greater straight line speed and evil chakra sensing? I suppose it gives a much longer "sage mode" type of mode...in that it gives speed and more chakra. In fact, it would appear that it gives a speed boost, chakra sensing, and chakra boost.
I would like to rate it as follows:
KCM = Kyuubi Chakra Mode.
SM = Sage ModeSpeed Boost: KCM
Taijutsu Boost: SM
Chakra Boost: KCM
Chakra Sensing: SM, but KCM does offer a super awesome chakra sensing mode that allows or sensing evil chakra.
Durability Boost: SM
Strength Boost: SMOverall, it would appear that the KCM is weaker than the SM boost. However, the KCM offers all the same things the SM does, but just not as strong in some areas and stronger in others. So, overall, I can see why Naruto would pick the KCM.
What do you guys think?
I dunno if its faster. Wasn't the KCM so fast that Naruto almost broke his leg earlier?
I'm done with the earlier discussion, btw. I know I'm right that she doesn't have any straight up feats (not prep feats, but straight up feats to warrant an S) to back up an S rank. We can only go by what was said by Nagato or whomever said she was S. I find it a large waste of time since we've all said our pieces. I think Konan is susceptible to a speed blitz based on what I think are two speedy attacks taking her out. (Jiraiya and Madara).
Originally posted by Q99
Extra hands allowing a dozen rasengan variants and plenty of melee tricks.
Oh yes, there's that too.
Do you disagree with my assessments on which areas each mode have strengths over the other?
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
By the way, we can all agree that since Mizukage is the last man standing, clearly he is the best among them! woot
We COULD just as likely say that he is the weakest since Naruto took out the Raikage first. 313
Originally posted by Nephthys
I dunno if its faster. Wasn't the KCM so fast that Naruto almost broke his leg earlier?
I would say that only h2h is faster in the SM. KCM seems to be much faster in straight lines but Naruto clearly stated that the frog-fu is faster and his reflexes are faster. By feats, we know that his reflexes are faster because he said and used SM to "react" faster to the Raikage's uber speedy slicy raikiri-esque, finger-banging, killy move.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I'm done with the earlier discussion, btw. I know I'm right that she doesn't have any straight up feats (not prep feats, but straight up feats to warrant an S) to back up an S rank.
There is the amount of paper she was manipulating for that length of time, holding back all that water to keep Madara surrounded. The origin of the paper in question aside*, but the size of the manipulation is on the high end of A class to low S, and the amount of time it's used means high persistent effort.
Doing a big A-class jutsu for 10 minutes strait is something only an S-class can do.
Combined with one of the better defenses, logia transformation is great to have.
*Since making isn't a big thing to begin with; it's the scale that's impressive, if it used pre-existing water or pre-existing sand or so on it'd still be a ton.
We can only go by what was said by Nagato or whomever said she was S. I find it a large waste of time since we've all said our pieces. I think Konan is susceptible to a speed blitz based on what I think are two speedy attacks taking her out. (Jiraiya and Madara).
*Cough* stabbed in the back...
And a speedy attack from the front by Madara got his arm blown up.
Oh yes, there's that too.Do you disagree with my assessments on which areas each mode have strengths over the other?
Only slightly. I don't think he's faster in HtH, it sounded to me like his sensor abilities just let him have better HtH timing. The effect is similar, but it's a result of knowing when the enemy is going to move more precisely, rather than his body moving faster.
Also we haven't really seen his max strength in kyuubi mode, we can only guess that Sage is stronger.
We COULD just as likely say that he is the weakest since Naruto took out the Raikage first.
You've completely forgotten about the Kazekage, haven't you?
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
So? Minato and Naruto never showed much interesting in blondes.Teleporting is more helpful though! 😮
Do you KNOW that? vin
Haha.
Well, considering where they're going with 3, I can see the need for all of this. Somewhat.
They were both incredibly narcissistic though, and they showed interest in each other. vin
I suppose. Lightningz cooler though.
He didn't try to avenge his parents though :3.
Meh.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
LolNevermind, pretty sure Minato woould beat Raikage now. Dodai is cool though.
And wow, Mizukage is badass.
Prolly, yeah. Depends on how fast he can think of using 3rd's Nukite Attack against him. And yeah, Dodai's pretty kewl. That rubber ball trick made me laugh.
Also, Rasengan went straight through the shroud, but barely hurt the 3rd.
It's all but confirmed that Naruto's going to use the Tailed Beast Rasengan for the first time against Sasuke. Wait till he gets a load of Susano'o.
Originally posted by Q99
I'm somewhat disappointed we never got to see Raikage's black lightning.
That's why he lost. Though the only attack strong enough to hurt him was the greatest penetrative-type attack we've seen, and all he got was a scar. >__>
Originally posted by Q99
There is the amount of paper she was manipulating for that length of time, holding back all that water to keep Madara surrounded. The origin of the paper in question aside*, but the size of the manipulation is on the high end of A class to low S, and the amount of time it's used means high persistent effort.Doing a big A-class jutsu for 10 minutes strait is something only an S-class can do.
Combined with one of the better defenses, logia transformation is great to have.
*Since making isn't a big thing to begin with; it's the scale that's impressive, if it used pre-existing water or pre-existing sand or so on it'd still be a ton.
K. But what I said, not what you said. I see prep, I don't see S-Class.
To put into perspective what her level of prep means: Shikimaru took out Hidan. Hidan is an S-Class because of his ninjutsu, taijutsu, and stamina abilities.
I would put her prep as rivaling Shikimaru's as far as "planning ahead" and studying the enemy.
Originally posted by Q99
*Cough* stabbed in the back...And a speedy attack from the front by Madara got his arm blown up.
Again, what I said: "I think Konan is susceptible to a speed blitz based on what I think are two speedy attacks taking her out. (Jiraiya and Madara)."
Originally posted by Q99
Only slightly. I don't think he's faster in HtH, it sounded to me like his sensor abilities just let him have better HtH timing. The effect is similar, but it's a result of knowing when the enemy is going to move more precisely, rather than his body moving faster.Also we haven't really seen his max strength in kyuubi mode, we can only guess that Sage is stronger.
That could be true, but the current on panel translation directly disagrees because it says it is faster.
Originally posted by Q99
You've completely forgotten about the Kazekage, haven't you?
I guess so because I don't remember the Yondaime Kazekage being taken out by Naruto: I thought that was 100% Gaara.
Originally posted by dadudemon
K. But what I said, not what you said. I see prep, I don't see S-Class.
I'm talking the manipulation of paper at the time alone, mind you.
Prep only determined whether it was normal paper or tags. She was still moving it around and using it to hold back the water right there with her own chakra on the spot, which has nothing to do with prep.
If someone like Deidara prep places bombs in a cliff, then he moves it around for ten minutes, the movement is not reliant on prep. The prep is for an additional effect separate from that effort, which is in itself a show of S-class chakra.
Again, what I said: "I think Konan is susceptible to a speed blitz based on what I think are two speedy attacks taking her out. (Jiraiya and Madara)."
Ok, and we've also seen her stop a speedy attack, and the Madara attack that worked involved her being stabbed from behind.
That could be true, but the current on panel translation directly disagrees because it says it is faster.
Here's the translation I've got: http://img.mangastream.com/m/1/31829130/28fd5313e07b03e7d28abc4bbcdd9e2b.png
That one's just talking danger sense.
