If my plan is to shoot and kill someone, it is not a success if my gun shoots but I fail to kill them.
As for the second plan, it Also failed.
Which is not to bad mouth Itachi since the first plan had him dealing with Madara, who is smarter than Itachi, and the second with Kabuto, a regular spanner in the works.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Nope, it failed.If my plan is to shoot and kill someone, it is not a success if my gun shoots but I fail to kill them.
As for the second plan, it Also failed.
Which is not to bad mouth Itachi since the first plan had him dealing with Madara, who is smarter than Itachi, and the second with Kabuto, a regular spanner in the works.
Nope, it succeeded.
First plan: activate ama. when Sasuke's eyes see Madara's. Result: success.
Second plan: activate special shisui eyeball to protect Konoha. Result: success.
🙂
What you're wanting is a specific result but the designed algorithms worked exactly how they were designed.
It's not what I want, it's what Itachi wanted.
The trick with Amaterasu was merely the tool. The plan, by Madara's own words, failed because it did not kill Madara or keep him away from Sasule.
The trick with Koto was also merely a tool. The plan, by Itachi's words, failed because it was meant for Sasuke. In this case the plan arguably didn't fail as badly because it had some positive side effects. Since the main goal of the plan(because plans require goals) was rendered unachievable however, said plan did in fact fail.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
It's not what I want, it's what Itachi wanted.The trick with Amaterasu was merely the tool. The plan, by Madara's own words, failed because it did not kill Madara or keep him away from Sasule.
The trick with Koto was also merely a tool. The plan, by Itachi's words, failed because it was meant for Sasuke. In this case the plan arguably didn't fail as badly because it had some positive side effects. Since the main goal of the plan(because plans require goals) was rendered unachievable however, said plan did in fact fail.
Your cup is half empty: mine is logical (thought I would say half full, eh? YOU WERE WRRRRONNNG!)
Originally posted by TheAuraAngelWhich is not to bad mouth Itachi since the first plan had him dealing with Madara, who is smarter than Itachi, and the second with Kabuto, a regular spanner in the works.
He merely kept secrets from Itachi. Madara himself admits that Itachi would have succeeded otherwise. So nah, Itachi did not fail because Madara was smarter, he failed because there were factors in play unknown to him.
It is smart to keep secrets from those who might want to kill you.
It's not comparable to a chess game though. More like Poker. You have the cards and the ones on the table. You know what you have and judging by your opponents reactions and movements, you can guess what they got. But you never truly know. And in the end, Madara held the better hand. 😛
Well if we go by how you were treating Itachi's plans earlier, he has more successes due to more showings.
Currently he has 7 successes under his belt for each of the Bijuu captured. He also succeeded in killing the Uchiha, which he wanted. A joint effort on his an Itachi's part apparently. And his current plan of manipulating Naruto and the SA is going smooth as silk. Of course, it may fail or it may not.
However the big reason I say Madara is smarter is due to how they've handled Sasuke. Madara knows Sasuke more than Itachi and knows just the right things to say to him while his brother really dropped the whole bar there. Really, I can just point at Sasuke as he is and it's fairly obvious that Itachi's plan to turn Sasuke into a "Hero" backfired hard.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well if we go by how you were treating Itachi's plans earlier, he has more successes due to more showings.
He = Itachi, I presume?
It had better.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Currently he has 7 successes under his belt for each of the Bijuu captured. He also succeeded in killing the Uchiha, which he wanted. A joint effort on his an Itachi's part apparently. And his current plan of manipulating Naruto and the SA is going smooth as silk. Of course, it may fail or it may not.
That's not planning, though.
That's saying, "He, you...powerful guy...go capture this beast for me...and be secret about it".
Intelligent planning is something else.
It's, "Hey, you, go to Konoha at 09:00.45 at 45.000998 and 129.987898. Cut down the large tree on the right and slit the throats of the two gate guards 40 meters north of the tree...."
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
However the big reason I say Madara is smarter is due to how they've handled Sasuke. Madara knows Sasuke more than Itachi and knows just the right things to say to him while his brother really dropped the whole bar there. Really, I can just point at Sasuke as he is and it's fairly obvious that Itachi's plan to turn Sasuke into a "Hero" backfired [b]hard. [/B]
Social skills from a clan leader are bound to be better than the social skills of an isolated lone ninja.
Originally posted by dadudemon
He = Itachi, I presume?That's not planning, though.
That's saying, "He, you...powerful guy...go capture this beast for me...and be secret about it".
Intelligent planning is something else.
It's, "Hey, you, go to Konoha at 09:00.45 at 45.000998 and 129.987898. Cut down the large tree on the right and slit the throats of the two gate guards 40 meters north of the tree...."
Social skills from a clan leader are bound to be better than the social skills of an isolated lone ninja.
Nope. Madara.
Ah, you seem to think it isn't. Cute. Madara led an organization from the shadows and managed to capture 7 Bijuu. He clearly had to pair up the members with the enemies they were best suited to fight. And among other things, making Pain pick the right members to join.
Well if that is intelligent planning, Itachi certainly hasn't done any of that. Whereas Madara is in fact leading an army, using hidden agents, etc.
A former clan leader. And really, that is a lame excuse. Having lame social skills should never affect ones intelligence. Remember L and Near?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Manipulating Sasuke? Ok, NOW I'm impressed.All heil Madara!
I know right? Easy shit. But Itachi couldn't do it apparently. Where we getting this genius crap from?
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Nope. Madara.Ah, you seem to think it isn't. Cute. Madara led an organization from the shadows and managed to capture 7 Bijuu. He clearly had to pair up the members with the enemies they were best suited to fight. And among other things, making Pain pick the right members to join.
I just couldn't believe you'd mean anyone except for Itachi. 🙂
You mean he barely managed the organization from the shadows and let someone else do it, right?
And you mean an organization that failed to:
1. Stay alive.
2. Accomplish their task of capturing all the bijuu.
3. Remain hidden.
4. Keep from getting infiltrated.
5. Stay united.
Right?
That one?
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well if that is intelligent planning, Itachi certainly hasn't done any of that. Whereas Madara is in fact leading an army, using hidden agents, etc.
Yup, he sure has.
The crow tech. 🙂
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
A former clan leader. And really, that is a lame excuse. Having lame social skills should never affect ones intelligence. Remember L and Near?
Yeah, you'd think that a former clan leader would be resonposible for organizing missions, strategic direction, victories, treaties, diplomacy, and clan interactions, right?
Oh, right, he was.
Whereas, Itachi, only had to keep to himself and take orders.
And you have it backwards, being intelligent does not necessarily mean you are social. Many times, it means the opposite.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I just couldn't believe you'd mean anyone except for Itachi. 🙂You mean he barely managed the organization from the shadows and let someone else do it, right?
Well, I did. Madara clearly has better feats.
A good leader does not have to be involved in every step of the process. He did have Zetsu after all, so he could keep tabs on everything going on. Actually a very streamlined system.
Originally posted by dadudemon
And you mean an organization that failed to:1. Stay alive.
2. Accomplish their task of capturing all the bijuu.
3. Remain hidden.
4. Keep from getting infiltrated.
5. Stay united.
1. One does not need to have all ones chess pieces to win a game of chess. Same applies to the Akatsuki. Not that Madara minds.
2. Certainly got more than any non-Hashirama ninja out there. And in a fairly short amount of time.
3. The Organization was never very hidden to begin with since it's implied that villages have used Akatsuki.
4. Who infiltrated the Akatuski?
5. Aside from the Orochimaru incident, they were fairly united. Orochimaru might have been strong but he was far from unbeatable. He certainly had more enemies than Akatsuki, originally.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Yup, he sure has.The crow tech. 🙂
Uh huh.
Going by what you called "intelligent planning", I'm hard pressed to agree here. The crow tech had far too many variables to consider it very intelligent. For starters, it hinges on Sasuke transplanting Itachi's eyes. He didn't initially, ruining the whole plan. Secondly, it hinges on Madara not capturing Naruto before letting him confront Sasuke. He seemed content to when he found out where he was but decided to let Kabuto handle it. Itachi being revived was a variable Itachi wasn't likely to predict so I can't hold that against him. Short and sweet, it was a Thanatos Gambit and a risky one at that. He had no way of adjusting the plan if he needed to.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah, you'd think that a former clan leader would be resonposible for organizing missions, strategic direction, victories, treaties, diplomacy, and clan interactions, right?Oh, right, he was.
Whereas, Itachi, only had to keep to himself and take orders.
And you have it backwards, being intelligent does not necessarily mean you are social. Many times, it means the opposite.
So what you're saying is Madara, as a former clan leader, would be doing all those things(things that require intelligence) while all Itachi had to do was jerk off and consider how to deal with Sasuke? Because he did drop the ball on that one.
Social skills, good or bad, should not affect intelligence.