The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
1. One does not need to have all ones chess pieces to win a game of chess. Same applies to the Akatsuki. Not that Madara minds.
2. Certainly got more than any non-Hashirama ninja out there. And in a fairly short amount of time.
3. The Organization was never very hidden to begin with since it's implied that villages have used Akatsuki.
4. Who infiltrated the Akatuski?
5. Aside from the Orochimaru incident, they were fairly united. Orochimaru might have been strong but he was far from unbeatable. He certainly had more enemies than Akatsuki, originally.

1. He certainly did need much more chess pieces because...he failed and is now cleaning up the mess and only has one living collab left to work with.
2. Not really. He has been trying for 17 years. The other nations more or less made agreements and even Hashish "spread the wealth" for what I remember. Madara couldn't do jack without his team and it even took his team years to do it. 😄
3. Oh really? So why all the secrecy and hidden locations with bewby traps? lol
4. Tobi did. 😐
5. Nah, they weren't united at all. Konan rebelled, Nagato rebelled, hardly any of them got along with the exception of Shark Boy and Emochi.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Uh huh.

Going by what you called "intelligent planning", I'm hard pressed to agree here. The crow tech had far too many variables to consider it very intelligent. For starters, it hinges on Sasuke transplanting Itachi's eyes. He didn't initially, ruining the whole plan. Secondly, it hinges on Madara not capturing Naruto before letting him confront Sasuke. He seemed content to when he found out where he was but decided to let Kabuto handle it. Itachi being revived was a variable Itachi wasn't likely to predict so I can't hold that against him. Short and sweet, it was a Thanatos Gambit and a risky one at that. He had no way of adjusting the plan if he needed to.

Nope, the crow tech was the single best planning in the series. It's even better than Minato's death plan.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
So what you're saying is Madara, as a former clan leader, would be doing all those things(things that require intelligence) while all Itachi had to do was jerk off and consider how to deal with Sasuke? Because he did drop the ball on that one.

Social skills, good or bad, should not affect intelligence.

Yes, Madara did all that, but it's a social intelligence, not math (ie, planning) intelligence.

Originally posted by dadudemon
1. He certainly did need much more chess pieces because...he failed and is now cleaning up the mess and only has one living collab left to work with.
2. Not really. He has been trying for 17 years. The other nations more or less made agreements and even Hashish "spread the wealth" for what I remember. Madara couldn't do jack without his team and it even took his team years to do it. 😄
3. Oh really? So why all the secrecy and hidden locations with bewby traps? lol
4. Tobi did. 😐
5. Nah, they weren't united at all. Konan rebelled, Nagato rebelled, hardly any of them got along with the exception of Shark Boy and Emochi.

1. One Collab that is worth 100,000 guys. And he only ever truly had 2 or 3 collaborators to begin with. The other members were just pawns. They did their part well.
2. Why rush? Remember, he is still bitter about the Uchiha betrayal at this point. Let the distrust foster into glorious hatred. Then one can make Akatsuki. Though he arguably already had it made. Slow and steady wins the race.
3. Something of that importance needs secrecy. They rarely went to such efforts otherwise, sitting where ever during the meetings.
4. Lulz.
5. Nagato was talked no jutsued. No amount of planning or manipulation can stop that. Unless one is the awesome force known as Sasuke.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Nope, the crow tech was the single best planning in the series. It's even better than Minato's death plan.

.....Minato's death plan actually worked spectacularly. Sure it had some problems but not nearly as many and was, for the most part, perfect. Suetiful in fact. Itachi's plan actually failed. Twice to be honest.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yes, Madara did all that, but it's a social intelligence, not math (ie, planning) intelligence.

Yeah, you'd think that a former clan leader would be resonposible for organizing missions,strategic direction, victories, treaties, diplomacy, and clan interactions, right?

Got the part that does require planning. And will point out that Itachi's victories are due to him being more powerful usually, not more intelligent. Sole exception to this was Nagato and at the point, he had significant backup to cover the power difference.

The Naruto chapter overall was pretty decent, despite that we had to endure the mass killing of white Zetsu clones, which we would've had to eventually either way. I'm really psyched over what Mū will summon and even more interested in his Kekkei Tōta and the colored page was appreciated as well.

I'll give the chapter a 4/5.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
1. One Collab that is worth 100,000 guys. And he only ever truly had 2 or 3 collaborators to begin with. The other members were just pawns. They did their part well.
2. Why rush? Remember, he is still bitter about the Uchiha betrayal at this point. Let the distrust foster into glorious hatred. Then one can make Akatsuki. Though he arguably already had it made. Slow and steady wins the race.
3. Something of that importance needs secrecy. They rarely went to such efforts otherwise, sitting where ever during the meetings.
4. Lulz.
5. Nagato was talked no jutsued. No amount of planning or manipulation can stop that. Unless one is the awesome force known as Sasuke.

1. Nope. Two ninjas are seeing to the 100,000 being utterly pwned. Nice try that, huh, Maddy? 😄
2. He failed, initially. You say "why rush" I see, "He's trying for almost two decades with some major setbacks." Your glass is not only NOT half full, it's mostly empty.
3. Despite the secrecy (you just admitted that your previous point was wrong, btw...I accept that), they were still infiltrated.
4. They didn't even KNOW he was the masta. You'd think the ultra smart poopoo heads would know better, right?
5. NOPE! One word: Sasuke. TNJ doesn't work on everyone. Wait, that's what you said. I hate you. 😐

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
.....Minato's death plan actually worked spectacularly. Sure it had some problems but not nearly as many and was, for the most part, perfect. Suetiful in fact. Itachi's plan actually failed. Twice to be honest.

It almost failed but it was only due to how awesome Naruto is that it worked. It failed for the first 12 years but Naruto MADE it work. So, no, credit goes to Naruto for it's success, not Minato. Minato should have been punched right in the face like Naruto did when he saw him (one of the best moments in the series, imo).

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Got the part that does require planning. And will point out that Itachi's victories are due to him being more powerful usually, not more intelligent. Sole exception to this was Nagato and at the point, he had significant backup to cover the power difference.

You mean Itachi just magically had more power?

Or did Itachi practice like a madman for hours every day to get to where he was?

Itachi not only reversed engineering Madara's plans, he even planned in some mitigation that had marginal success. In fact, he may have talk no jutsu'd his brother without even talking him! GASPITY!

Originally posted by dadudemon
1. Nope. Two ninjas are seeing to the 100,000 being utterly pwned. Nice try that, huh, Maddy? 😄
2. He failed, initially. You say "why rush" I see, "He's trying for almost two decades with some major setbacks." Your glass is not only NOT half full, it's mostly empty.
3. Despite the secrecy (you just admitted that your previous point was wrong, btw...I accept that), they were still infiltrated.
4. They didn't even KNOW he was the masta. You'd think the ultra smart poopoo heads would know better, right?

1. And of course, it is all going according to plan. So we'll see what happens there.
2. Due to Minato, sure. A nice setback but not unmanageable. He just became Mizukage to kill time.
3. You know, the Presidency is pretty public. But we know they do things in secret. Akatsuki itself is not secretive. They just have a rather awesome hidden agenda.
4. He is just that good an actor.

Originally posted by dadudemon
It almost failed but it was only due to how awesome Naruto is that it worked. It failed for the first 12 years but Naruto MADE it work. So, no, credit goes to Naruto for it's success, not Minato. Minato should have been punched right in the face like Naruto did when he saw him (one of the best moments in the series, imo).

How did it fail? The thing with Minato's chakra isn't supposed to go off until 8 tails. It's not supposed to be used early. As for taming the Kyuubi, Minato left that up to Jiraiya to decide when Naruto was ready to tame the Kyuubi. It worked perfectly. 🙂

Originally posted by dadudemon
You mean Itachi just magically had more power?

Or did Itachi practice like a madman for hours every day to get to where he was?

Itachi not only reversed engineering Madara's plans, he even planned in some mitigation that had marginal success. In fact, he may have talk no jutsu'd his brother without even talking him! GASPITY!

Yes. It is called the MS.

I don't recall him ever practicing(except for the time where he showed off in front of Sasuke). And it is implied that he is a genius so I'd imagine he never had to.

Not seeing either of those things. Elaborate.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
.....Minato's death plan actually worked spectacularly. Sure it had some problems but not nearly as many and was, for the most part, perfect. Suetiful in fact. Itachi's plan actually failed. Twice to be honest.

Minato's plans had variables too. Ones far more drastic than the ones involved in Itachi's plan, and Minato had no way to fix his plan as well obviously.

It only worked because Naruto had PIS and protagonist juice on his side. It would have been a Deus Ex Machina if Itachi's plan worked, and it would have nerfed a conflict that has been foreshadowed since Part 1 ended.

That said, I'm a bigger Itachibag than anyone else here including Dew Demon, and even I think Minato's planning was better.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
It is smart to keep secrets from those who might want to kill you.

It's not comparable to a chess game though. More like Poker. You have the cards and the ones on the table. You know what you have and judging by your opponents reactions and movements, you can guess what they got. But you never truly know. And in the end, Madara held the better hand. 😛

It is smart and I am not disputing it. Does it, however, automatically make you smarter than those that want to kill you? Far from it, when it does not even count as prep.

Using your poker analogy, I'd Madara cheated and pulled out another card from his sleeve. 😛

And no, their respective handlings of Sasuke does not prove that Madara is smarter. Not only is Sasuke proving hard to manipulate as per Madara's own words, but Itachi's handling of Sasuke made it easy for Madara to approach Sasuke in the first place. Itachi even had a counter towards Madara which would have succeeded had Itachi known about whatever it was that saved Madara's ass. Konan was in the same boat a few weeks later.

Lag sucks. >_>

Damn you all, I'm trying to finish reading Kekkaishi! D=

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Minato's plans had variables too. Ones far more drastic than the ones involved in Itachi's plan, and Minato had no way to fix his plan as well obviously.

It only worked because Naruto had PIS and protagonist juice on his side. It would have been a Deus Ex Machina if Itachi's plan worked, and it would have nerfed a conflict that has been foreshadowed since Part 1 ended.

That said, I'm a bigger Itachibag than anyone else here including Dew Demon, and even I think Minato's planning was better.

Eh? Which ones? I suppose if Naruto died or got captured he'd not have been able to pull the Kushina trick. But that is something to consider with most Thantos Gambits.

Obviously. This fight better make the world shake it's been foreshadowed so much.

Yay!

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
It is smart and I am not disputing it. Does it, however, automatically make you smarter than those that want to kill you? Far from it, when it does not even count as prep.

Using your poker analogy, I'd Madara cheated and pulled out another card from his sleeve. 😛

And no, their respective handlings of Sasuke does not prove that Madara is smarter. Not only is Sasuke proving hard to manipulate as per Madara's own words, but Itachi's handling of Sasuke made it easy for Madara to approach Sasuke in the first place. Itachi even had a counter towards Madara which would have succeeded had Itachi known about whatever it was that saved Madara's ass. Konan was in the same boat a few weeks later.

Itachi didn't consider other variables. That said, it would have been much better if he could have used Totsuka blade instead of Amaterasu. Much more affective.

Itachi would catch that with his sharingan. vin

Indeed. Madara recognized the flaws in Itachi's plans and only made his move when needed. It really isn't fair, Itachi was used. 😛

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
1. And of course, it is all going according to plan. So we'll see what happens there.
2. Due to Minato, sure. A nice setback but not unmanageable. He just became Mizukage to kill time.
3. You know, the Presidency is pretty public. But we know they do things in secret. Akatsuki itself is not secretive. They just have a rather awesome hidden agenda.
4. He is just that good an actor.

1. Yes, we'll see. Kishi better not "broken" Maddy too much. uhuh
2. Yes, Minato is that awesome. Still failed with his son, though.
3. Nah...they were secret about everything.
4. Indeed. I liked Tobi better. I liked the mystery of how he was able to survive stuff or be uber awesome. It was almost an obvious build up that Madara was Tobi...but his goofy form was better (anime does better at building this).

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
How did it fail? The thing with Minato's chakra isn't supposed to go off until 8 tails. It's not supposed to be used early. As for taming the Kyuubi, Minato left that up to Jiraiya to decide when Naruto was ready to tame the Kyuubi. It worked perfectly. 🙂

It was suppose to help but it only caused his son uber pain.

The plan failed if it wasn't for Naruto refusing to give in.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Yes. It is called the MS.

I don't recall him ever practicing(except for the time where he showed off in front of Sasuke). And it is implied that he is a genius so I'd imagine he never had to.

Nah, Itachi practiced hard. Plain and simple. His genius helped that hard work become top of his clan, easily, but he didn't develop ultra fast hand movements, speed, and variety of techniques (genjutsu) from NOT practicing.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Not seeing either of those things. Elaborate.

Nah, it's too obvious and does not require explaining. Not wasting typing.

Originally posted by dadudemon
2. Yes, Minato is that awesome. Still failed with his son, though.
3. Nah...they were secret about everything.

2. Minato's failure as a father<<<<<<<Itachi's failure as a brother.
3. Nope. Only concerning their hidden agenda were they very secretive. Hence why it was hidden.

Originally posted by dadudemon
It was suppose to help but it only caused his son uber pain.

The plan failed if it wasn't for Naruto refusing to give in.

That only failed because the villagers did not listen to orders. Not his fault. Besides, the mode Naruto has right now is due to Minato. Without this mode, Naruto could not save the SA. So in an awesome way, Minato has made it so the SA would win...from the grave! Of course, Just as Planned for Madara so we'll see.

Nope that all went as planned.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Nah, Itachi practiced hard. Plain and simple. His genius helped that hard work become top of his clan, easily, but he didn't develop ultra fast hand movements, speed, and variety of techniques (genjutsu) from NOT practicing.

I've only seen Itachi practice once. As far as him practicing everyday, I'm not seeing it. The kid really had no time to practice. When he got old enough to be a ninja, he would play with Sasuke more often than do his homework, which it was only around Sasuke that I've ever seen him practice. And of course, with the MS, one really can't practice. My interpretation of Itachi was that he was a genius that had no real need to practice.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Itachi didn't consider other variables. That said, it would have been much better if he could have used Totsuka blade instead of Amaterasu. Much more affective.p

Eh, I know. Just would have been more effective against Madara, who probably wouldn't have had time to use Izanagi.

Even phasing might work (there's no way of knowing really). But Sasuke dying would actually have been for the better. So I can say, there was a possible benefit to susanoo but none for Amaterasu. And Itachi should have known it wouldn't work, because he'd worked with Madara for years and they even teamed up for the massacre. So the whole "implant the MS technique" is not a very smart plan to begin with.

I think what he was HOPING would happen is that the technique would warn Sasuke "this Madara guy is bad news" and he wouldn't listen to him. In which case, Itachi seriously overestimated Sasuke's ability to use logic and intelligence these days."\

Nah. What he really underestimated was how interested Sasuke would be in his brothers true motives. Not that Madara gave him a choice in the matter, tying him up and forcing him to listen to the truth. And in a battle of intelligence between Sasuke(who didn't want to believe the truth and argued against it) and Madara, it's not even a fair contest.

Of course, Sasuke will probably try to kill Madara now.

It's more of a half truth since Madara only told Sasuke the stuff that would benefit him for the better. Eveny telling on himself was a small price to pay to get Sasuke to listen...considering he all but ignored the part where Madara says he helped Itachi kill his clan.

What does he gain from that? Especially since he can still tell him about how great Itachi was until the Itachi zombie shows up 😄

It was the way Madara said those things that was the best thing about the manipulation.

Madara: Oh the poor Uchiha! Konoha treated them like garbage and then made your brother kill them! How horrid!

Sasuke: Yeah! I'll kill those douche bags!

Madara: Really? Cause your brother didn't want to kill them...

Sasuke: **** my brother and what he wants.

I truly hope that last part is Sasuke's true motivation. haermm

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel

Eh? Which ones? I suppose if Naruto died or got captured he'd not have been able to pull the Kushina trick. But that is something to consider with most Thantos Gambits.

Obviously. This fight better make the world shake it's been foreshadowed so much.

Yay!

Even the Kushina trick was a gamble though. And unless Minato himself has precog, his endgame relied on a truckload of luck seeing as there was no way he could tell for certain that Naruto would turn out to be the Saviour. He could have given the Kyuubi to a sociopath, which were it not for Protagonist juice, would have been the case.

I know eh? It better create a bunch of valleys and craters and stuff.
Yet we both think that Sasuke will team up with Naruto to stop Madara or whoever the Big Bad is. >__>

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Itachi didn't consider other variables. That said, it would have been much better if he could have used Totsuka blade instead of Amaterasu. Much more affective.

Itachi would catch that with his sharingan. vin

Indeed. Madara recognized the flaws in Itachi's plans and only made his move when needed. It really isn't fair, Itachi was used. 😛

He considered nearly every variable he had knowledge of when it came to the Amaterasu.

Ah but he did. He'll pull a Xanatos and go "just as planned" when he meets up with Kabuto. He'll then use Kabuto's trump card to pwn Madara and make himself the Naruto-God. vin

Quite the opposite. Itachi used Madara to kill the Uchiha to prevent the 4th World War, used him to keep an eye on Akatsuki and to keep Konoha safe from Akatsuki. Once he decided Madara would go after Sasuke, he used Sasuke in an attempt to kill Madara, is using Naruto to save Sasuke and stop Madara, and he's revealed to Sasuke that Madara had a part to play in the Uchiha Massacre, while helping him gain the EMS. So really, Itachi's been using everyone around him. 😛

He's also figured out the weakness of Edo Tensei, unlike Madara who needed Kabuto to tell him. 😛

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
2. Minato's failure as a father<<<<<<<Itachi's failure as a brother.
3. Nope. Only concerning their hidden agenda were they very secretive. Hence why it was hidden.

2. Nope, Itachi succeeded: Sasuke became strong enough to defeat Itachi. Sure, it relied on Itachi being sick...but that was the goal. 😄
3. NOPE! Hiring them for jobs and knowing where they live, infiltrating them, figuring out their plans is not the same thing. It was a good try, though.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
That only failed because the villagers did not listen to orders. Not his fault. Besides, the mode Naruto has right now is due to Minato. Without this mode, Naruto could not save the SA. So in an awesome way, Minato has made it so the SA would win...from the grave! Of course, Just as Planned for Madara so we'll see.

Yeah, cause Minato was NOT aware of the "outcasting" that putting a tailed beast in his son would cause, right?

Wrong: he complimented B for figuring out how to make it work.

Minato did nothing to help his son be the Savior: that is ALL Naruto. If it were not for Naruto being awesome, Minato's plan would have failed horribly. Pretty much any other ninja would have failed/buckled. At least B had a loving "brother" there. Naruto didn't even have that until 12.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
[QUOTE=13566455]Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
[B]Nope that all went as planned.

Nope, all is lost. Naruto is playing right into Maddy's plans.

Mark my words, it will be Sasuke (or a Sasuke-Naruto combo) that takes down Maddy.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I've only seen Itachi practice once. As far as him practicing everyday, I'm not seeing it. The kid really had no time to practice. When he got old enough to be a ninja, he would play with Sasuke more often than do his homework, which it was only around Sasuke that I've ever seen him practice. And of course, with the MS, one really can't practice. My interpretation of Itachi was that he was a genius that had no real need to practice.

You have your evidence. You should not ask for any more than just a single piece of evidence. You have it. That should be the end of it.

The anime shows more practicing than the manga because the anime expands on the past.

Originally posted by dadudemon

The anime shows more practicing than the manga because the anime expands on the past.

Though I wouldn't use the anime, there's really no way Itachi became one of the best Kunai users in the manga just by practising once in his lifetime. Neither he nor Minato are that level of genii, and they're the top genii in the series.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Though I wouldn't use the anime, there's really no way Itachi became one of the best Kunai users in the manga just by practising once in his lifetime. Neither he nor Minato are that level of genii, and they're the top genii in the series.

There's also no way he could get the sealing sword and mirror shield integrated and usable with his susano'o without having practiced and worked at the integration.

There's lots of good reasons to know that Itachi was not only a genius but he also busted his butt becoming the ninja he was.

Sasuke was the top of his graduating class and we saw how hard he practiced to be just like Itachi.

I do think, however, that Itachi was a greater genius than Sasuke.

Side note: in some ways, Naruto is a greater genius than both Minato and Itachi.