The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
It was the way Madara said those things that was the best thing about the manipulation.

Madara: Oh the poor Uchiha! Konoha treated them like garbage and then made your brother kill them! How horrid!

Sasuke: Yeah! I'll kill those douche bags!

Madara: Really? Cause your brother didn't want to kill them...

Sasuke: **** my brother and what he wants.

I truly hope that last part is Sasuke's true motivation. haermm

I'm pretty sure he was trying. Trying quite hard because people really, really wouldn't stop trying to sympathize with him 🙂

Unless Kishi's goal is to purposefully make Naruto look like a idiot and/or lunatic for his continual support and belief in Sasuke I think we're supposed to be sympathetic to him and want Naruto to redeem him.

Though its really hard to tell. Sasuke has done some really batshit and evil stuff that makes it practically impossible to think that someone could write him like that by accident.

Originally posted by dadudemon
2. Nope, Itachi succeeded: Sasuke became strong enough to defeat Itachi. Sure, it relied on Itachi being sick...but that was the goal. 😄
3. NOPE! Hiring them for jobs and knowing where they live, infiltrating them, figuring out their plans is not the same thing. It was a good try, though.

2. So I guess no one told you that he wanted Sasuke to defeat him and not be a total dick about it? Cause that's what he wanted. It was the last part that Itachi screwed up on.

3. Ah, but you said they were secretive about everything. They clearly were not.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah, cause Minato was NOT aware of the "outcasting" that putting a tailed beast in his son would cause, right?

Minato did nothing to help his son be the Savior: that is ALL Naruto. If it were not for Naruto being awesome, Minato's plan would have failed horribly. Pretty much any other ninja would have failed/buckled. At least B had a loving "brother" there. Naruto didn't even have that until 12.

He certainly was. Which is why he tried to prevent him by telling everyone to treat Naruto nice. They didn't listen, not his fault. Not like he could make them from the grave.

He stopped him from releasing the Kyuubi and set it up so Kushina could help him master it. Done quite a bit to help Naruto become who he is. In fact, apparently Naruto loves his parents so much that they are his two suns, so they're still helping him.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Nope, all is lost. Naruto is playing right into Maddy's plans.

Mark my words, it will be Sasuke (or a Sasuke-Naruto combo) that takes down Maddy.

Nah.

If it is, good. Means Kishi did it right.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You have your evidence. You should not ask for any more than just a single piece of evidence. You have it. That should be the end of it.

Ah, but you said he practiced like a madman for hours at a time. Which sounds more like Rock Lee than Itachi, who probably practiced, just not that much.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Even the Kushina trick was a gamble though. And unless Minato himself has precog, his endgame relied on a truckload of luck seeing as there was no way he could tell for certain that Naruto would turn out to be the Saviour. He could have given the Kyuubi to a sociopath, which were it not for Protagonist juice, would have been the case.

I know eh? It better create a bunch of valleys and craters and stuff.
Yet we both think that Sasuke will team up with Naruto to stop Madara or whoever the Big Bad is. >__>

How was it a gamble really? Naruto has a living nuke in him so of course he is going to try to learn to use it. And of course. But that goes without saying. All he knows is Jiraiya mentioned a chosen one and well, Naruto was his and Kushina's kid. Pretty hard to top that lineage.

Of course. But after they fight.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He considered nearly every variable he had knowledge of when it came to the Amaterasu.

Ah but he did. He'll pull a Xanatos and go "just as planned" when he meets up with Kabuto. He'll then use Kabuto's trump card to pwn Madara and make himself the Naruto-God. vin

Except his ability to phase and teleport. 😛

Ten bucks says he just uses Tsukuyomi to stop the Edo Tensei.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Quite the opposite. Itachi used Madara to kill the Uchiha to prevent the 4th World War, used him to keep an eye on Akatsuki and to keep Konoha safe from Akatsuki. Once he decided Madara would go after Sasuke, he used Sasuke in an attempt to kill Madara, is using Naruto to save Sasuke and stop Madara, and he's revealed to Sasuke that Madara had a part to play in the Uchiha Massacre, while helping him gain the EMS. So really, Itachi's been using everyone around him. 😛

He's also figured out the weakness of Edo Tensei, unlike Madara who needed Kabuto to tell him. 😛

But in effect, Madara has used him. So, squarses.

Ten bucks says he does what everyone else is planning to do. Madara just didn't feel like stopping it. awesome

Originally posted by King Kandy
When I think of "going full retard" that exchange is the first thing I think of. I have to admire Kishi because he has done a great job making Sasuke a truly unsympathetic villain. Of course, if he was trying NOT to do that, then he failed hard.

Kishi was certainly trying to do that. And it was more or less excellently handled.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
How was it a gamble really? Naruto has a living nuke in him so of course he is going to try to learn to use it. And of course. But that goes without saying. All he knows is Jiraiya mentioned a chosen one and well, Naruto was his and Kushina's kid. Pretty hard to top that lineage.

Of course. But after they fight.

Sure, but it wasn't certain that Naruto would get to where he did before Kushina came into the picture, and it wasn't certain that he would succeed even with Kushina's help, which was instrumental, but minute.

Minato gambled the future of the world on a kid with a nuke inside him with virtually no solid proof on whether Naruto would use it for good. Lineage had little to do with it.

But if they fight and they beat the crap out of each other, how will they fight Madara?

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Except his ability to phase and teleport. 😛

Ten bucks says he just uses Tsukuyomi to stop the Edo Tensei.

Nah, ten bucks says it was Izanagi.

Simple no? Wonder why Madara couldn't think of that. vin

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
But in effect, Madara has used him. So, squarses.

Ten bucks says he does what everyone else is planning to do. Madara just didn't feel like stopping it. awesome

But overall, Itachi had used him for grander purposes. So Itachi still wins.

True, he needed the Fanny bros for their Kyuubi chakra. But he doesn't anymore, which means he can't stop it. vin

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Kishi was certainly trying to do that. And it was more or less excellently handled.

True. Though rather than gradual, it was sudden and right after Sasuke thought of someone else for a change, so basically, Kishi trolled us.

Originally posted by dadudemon
There's also no way he could get the sealing sword and mirror shield integrated and usable with his susano'o without having practiced and worked at the integration.

There's lots of good reasons to know that Itachi was not only a genius but he also busted his butt becoming the ninja he was.

Sasuke was the top of his graduating class and we saw how hard he practiced to be just like Itachi.

I do think, however, that Itachi was a greater genius than Sasuke.

Side note: in some ways, Naruto is a greater genius than both Minato and Itachi.

Can't comment on the 3 Treasures. Don't know their specifics.

Sure, but I doubt Itachi practised as hard as Sasuke did when he was 7. He was born with more natural talent than Sasuke was.

So do I. He's better than anyone bar Minato IMO.

Sure. They're not the best in every single category. Other genii eclipse them in certain areas. On the whole though, Naruto and the others don't come close to those two.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Sure, but it wasn't certain that Naruto would get to where he did before Kushina came into the picture, and it wasn't certain that he would succeed even with Kushina's help, which was instrumental, but minute.

Minato gambled the future of the world on a kid with a nuke inside him with virtually no solid proof on whether Naruto would use it for good. Lineage had little to do with it.

But if they fight and they beat the crap out of each other, how will they fight Madara?

Well yeah, Naruto could very well have died before trying to master that Kyuubi. But that is a calculated risk with any Thanatos Gambit, including Itachi's and L's. Though considering the Kyuubi saved Naruto from dying multiple of times, it wasn't too big a problem.

"Have faith in him. He is our son!" sounds like putting faith in lineage to me.

Simple: It won't happen on the same day. Rest in between then. Sasuke and Naruto fight, Madara restrains both after the battle regardless of outcome, and begins sealing Naruto. Sasuke is conflicted and crap and then decides to help Naruto and they team up on him.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Nah, ten bucks says it was Izanagi.

Simple no? Wonder why Madara couldn't think of that. vin

Considering this was before Izanagi was probably conceived, it's phasing. 😛

Cause he was more concerned with stopping the actual bodies and not Kabuto. Besides, why would he need to figure it out when he could just bully Kabuto until he told him? awesome

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
But overall, Itachi had used him for grander purposes. So Itachi still wins.

True, he needed the Fanny bros for their Kyuubi chakra. But he doesn't anymore, which means he can't stop it. vin

No purpose is grander than Sasuke. Madara didn't really need to use Itachi for much.

He also needs his Paths of Pain. 😛

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
True. Though rather than gradual, it was sudden and right after Sasuke thought of someone else for a change, so basically, Kishi trolled us.

It seems sudden but that's only because it is. Sasuke is sort of like Kisame(if the latter was handled right). His whole life has been lies. His brother lied to him, his village lied to him. Whenever he thinks about his time in Konoha he sees nothing but a lie that causes him incredible pain. He loved those times of his life and to consider them lies is awful. He can't stand it. He wants to kill everyone that lied to him. The only memories he thinks aren't lies are the happy ones spent with Itachi before the Coup.

At least how I see it.

"Have faith in him. He is our son!" sounds like putting faith in lineage to me.

After all, chakra strength seems to be genetic in large part.

I figure the reason we see old people in the ranks of genins and chunins is many people don't have the chakra strength to perform strong jutsu period... so the strong ninja are a mix of flukes and lineages.

Well not just chakra strength, talent also plays a role I suppose. Obito had good lineage but he sucked until sharingan. Or at least it is implied that Kakashi was much better than him.

But yeah, genetics obviously play some role. There are few ninja that seem not to come from a strong family of some kind. Minato, Guy, Lee are the ones that come to mind. Maybe Danzo(maybe).

Darn you all for making me think about the character of Sasuke. >_>

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well not just chakra strength, talent also plays a role I suppose. Obito had good lineage but he sucked until sharingan. Or at least it is implied that Kakashi was much better than him.

Yea, but even 'sucked until sharingan' was a chunin at 11 with Great Fireball and solid physical abilities.

Even granting it was a war, I suspect 'low end of the bell curve Uchiha' still means having notably higher than average chakra.

But yeah, genetics obviously play some role. There are few ninja that seem not to come from a strong family of some kind. Minato, Guy, Lee are the ones that come to mind. Maybe Danzo(maybe).

Perhaps Sakura and Tenten as well. They're the only two members of the Konoha 12 besides from Lee who aren't clearly from some clan. It wouldn't surprise me if Sakura got into the elite class purely on potential in the brains and control department.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, but even 'sucked until sharingan' was a chunin at 11 with Great Fireball and solid physical abilities.

Even granting it was a war, I suspect 'low end of the bell curve Uchiha' still means having notably higher than average chakra.

Perhaps Sakura and Tenten as well. They're the only two members of the Konoha 12 besides from Lee who aren't clearly from some clan. It wouldn't surprise me if Sakura got into the elite class purely on potential in the brains and control department.

13, times of war probably means lots o chunin. But yeah, not bad I guess.

Yeah. Obito had the chakra. He just wasn't very talented.

Sakura yeah. Tenten is iffy for me. Jiraiya and Orochimaru also have no known lineage and are monsters, so two more.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
13, times of war probably means lots o chunin. But yeah, not bad I guess.

He was 13 when we saw him, but he'd been a chunin for 2 years by that point by the databook.

Sakura yeah. Tenten is iffy for me. Jiraiya and Orochimaru also have no known lineage and are monsters, so two more.

Tenten's not particularly uber or anything, but she might be a civilian-origin ninja who got in due to her exceptional weapon skills.

I wonder if Orochimaru's parents were ninja since iirc their graves were in Konoha... not a major clan or anything, but still possibly ninja heritage.

Originally posted by Q99
He was 13 when we saw him, but he'd been a chunin for 2 years by that point by the databook.

Tenten's not particularly uber or anything, but she might be a civilian-origin ninja who got in due to her exceptional weapon skills.

I wonder if Orochimaru's parents were ninja since iirc their graves were in Konoha... not a major clan or anything, but still possibly ninja heritage.

Hush.

I guess. Not that her techniques require much chakra.

They were. As were Jiraiya's. But they aren't mentioned to be strong. Also, LOL, they don't have clan names. XD

Here's a question: Why the heck isn't Tsunade, Tsunade Senju?

I assume she is. No one calls her that though. Unless her mom was the Senju. Guess that would mean Tsunade could be Tsunade Smith for all the last names in the world.

Originally posted by Q99
Perhaps Sakura and Tenten as well. They're the only two members of the Konoha 12 besides from Lee who aren't clearly from some clan. It wouldn't surprise me if Sakura got into the elite class purely on potential in the brains and control department.

I wouldn't be surprised if she got in purely for her perfomance in oral exams.

Shes very.... charismatic.

I wouldn't say charismatic, but can memorize facts like no-one's business.

Even if she didn't have good chakra control, she'd be useful in the crypto department.

So I've determined that Sasuke from a metaphorical stand point, is the true main character of this story. woot

Nah. The stories thematic heart has always been focused upon Naruto.

The stories' thematic heart centers around Jiraiya, and his experiences being echoed through his students and via his stories.