The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by dadudemon
Oh, you mean a giant moment of extremely incongruous writing?

So, do you have anything else except obvious PIS?

Naruto exceeding A in speed spontaneously

Hmm... so when Naruto spontaneously shows higher level abilities, its A-okay and actually is the centerpiece of your argument. When B does it, its incongruous writing, PIS, and "nothing". I would say both of these are extremely idiotic writing, but I would not reject either of them because that would be placing my own ideas above on-panel evidence. I don't do that.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That's what I thought: you have nothing.

Because if you're comparing a base-from B (no Hachibi cloak) to cloak mode when we see B's cloak form being used as an upgrade, your PIS comparison fails.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Um...yeah. That's pretty much what it's based on for non-feated characters.

😐

But, I'd prefer to use the word "inference" instead of your insults.

Uh huh.

Bee, sans Hachibi, is not>>>>KCM Naruto. It's possible he *might* be stronger physically as Bee would obviously use taijutsu more and has a better build for it. But in terms of fighting, Naruto would throttle him.

Underlined the part that you either missed or ignored. The only reason I say might is because what you're using as an example is more of an example of durability than physical strength. But Naruto's Kyuubi Mode doesn't seem to add to durability like Sage Mode.

However, if you're honestly suggesting that normal Bee, no Hachibi help at all, could beat Naruto, I will laugh. 😐

Originally posted by King Kandy
A can kill Naruto in a single good hit.

Naruto can kill A in a single good hit, as well.

Naruto can kill anyone in a single good hit.

ANYONE.

A can kill anyone in a single good hit.

Most ninjas can kill most ninjas in a single good hit.

Guess why? They are ninjas.

What you're arguing requires someone as fast as Naruto to just stand there like an idiot. That's a fairly crappy argument against Mito.

Originally posted by King Kandy
His good hit on Bee was completely ineffective.

No, that wasn't a "good hit". That was a "clothesline" move. It only decaps if both use it at the same time. Something about inertia, transferring energy to another body, etc.

The reason it decaps when both arms are used is there are equal forces on both side of the person's neck. Instead of launching the person dozens of feet (OR...launching the weaker lariat-er giver), all energy is transferred into smashing that peron's neck.

If A were to punch Naruto in the head, it would cave-in his head (I assume that was what Naruto was on about with the "death" thing). Lariat? It would just send Naruto flying for a few dozen or so feet.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Uh huh.

Underlined the part that you either missed or ignored. The only reason I say might is because what you're using as an example is more of an example of durability than physical strength. But Naruto's Kyuubi Mode doesn't seem to add to durability like Sage Mode.

However, if you're honestly suggesting that normal Bee, no Hachibi help at all, could beat Naruto, I will laugh. 😐

Base Bee also defeated Sasuke w/ MS. He would have died if not for his back up. So I fail to see your objection.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Normal Bee would stomp Naruto. He is way stronger than Naruto. He has Samehada which completely invalidates Naruto's cloak. He is more durable like you just said. He has better Taijutsu. I'm looking for how you think he would lose.

Base Bee also defeated Sasuke w/ MS. He would have died if not for his back up. So I fail to see your objection.

Flash step, rasengan planet. Naruto>A>Base Bee in terms of speed.

Base Bee defeated a still wounded Sasuke who didn't use MS on Base Bee. Sasuke only used the MS once Bee was cloaked.

Not that that really means anything really. Now if he outran Amaterasu like A, that would be something. He didn't, so it doesn't matter.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Normal Bee would stomp Naruto. He is way stronger than Naruto. He has Samehada which completely invalidates Naruto's cloak. He is more durable like you just said. He has better Taijutsu. I'm looking for how you think he would lose.

Base-Bee wouldn't be able to touch Naruto, though.

If the Raikage couldn't touch Naruto at full-speed, what makes you think Bee could...even in base form?

Even Bee was impressed with Naruto's speed BEFORE he mastered it.

This is the same argument I made against your point in my previous post, by the way. Naruto/Mito are not just going to stand there so you can prove a point.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Um, yes, I have an on-panel showing that you have dismissed because you don't like it. Here's one more showing we could declare PIS:

Naruto exceeding A in speed spontaneously

You mean something that Kishimoto already wrote into the story many chapters in advance?

Or did you forget the part where B got a boooner over Naruto's speed the first time he used it against Kisame?

Or did you forget the part where Kishi showed us a flash back where Minato was so fast that he avoided A's fastest attack?

That's not quite PIS, now is it? That's carefully written/planned for feats.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Hmm... so when Naruto spontaneously shows higher level abilities, its A-okay and actually is the centerpiece of your argument. When B does it, its incongruous writing, PIS, and "nothing". I would say both of these are extremely idiotic writing, but I would not reject either of them because that would be placing my own ideas above on-panel evidence. I don't do that.

Well, you'd have to be right about the first part in order for your conclusion to be correct: it wasn't spontaneous speed from Naruto.

He had shown that ultra fast speed many chapters prior and throughout a few chaptesr that had the A and Naruto clash.

That's hardly "spontaneous".

What B did was have an incongruent burst of strength NOT speed.

Originally posted by King Kandy
That makes no sense.

It makes no sense?

Wait...so you don't think that when B goes to his cloak form and full on Bijuu form...he's not upgrading his abilities at all?

How does that not make sense?

Why did he resort to it, then?

If it wasn't an upgrade...then he wouldn't use it.

Originally posted by King Kandy
My point was, Base form Bee is significantly above cloaked Naruto.

But he's not.

You can only make a case for strength (incorrectly so), not speed.

If you claimed that, I would partially agree that base form B might be physically stronger than KCM Naruto.

I do not agree with that position, either. I think Naruto could have easily killed A. I also think KCM Naruto is stronger than B and A. Maybe not stronger than full tailed cloak form from B, however.

Originally posted by King Kandy
So compared to cloaked Bee, Naruto's form is the "dust mite" I spoke of. Obviously, if base Bee is above Kyuubi Naruto, how much more must his enhanced form be?

You see, that requires another incorrect piece of information to make this conclusion.

You COULD make an argument for base form B being physicall stronger than KCM Naruto. That's not really possible, however.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Hence, why I think non-feated characters should be rejected from consideration.

You made too many incorrect or unfounded assumptions to make a declaration like that.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
True. We can no longer say that Tobi is Madara, so we cannot use him to compare the two.

Indeed. I would say that Minato is better than Tobi pre-Rinnigan. 😄

So I still hold my old position. 😄

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I know, I wasn't joking.

You used a joke smilie at the end. uhuh

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Hashirama could control other bijuu and had a number of them under his control at one point. Instead of trading them, he could have used them to conquer the Shinobi world.

Or someone with Izanagi. Suigetsu also tanked a Hachibi Bijuu ball, but was KO'd. It's arguable that A's father could tank one as well.
Itachi's Susano'o is another candidate. And I also think Kisame's Giant Shark Missile could absorb the chakra in a Bijuu Ball.

But yes, very few people could stand up to a Bijuu ball. I can't think of anyone below S- that could stop one, minus the Absorbing Path.
Circumstantially, other Bijuu might be able to as well.

Yes, Izi could work, as well. Not Danzo's form, but Madara's form. But, I see a problem with that: if the eye is vaped, then it doesn't matter if they have Izi. So it doesn't work unless they preserve the eye tha will perform the Izi.

Suiy: the reason I said "multiple" Bijuu blasts, like I did is for people like Suiy and Minato. They both can take one (minato could probably transport 2-5) at the very least. I don't think Kisame's missile has enough explosive damage to stop the bijuu blast from vaping his ass. I think we're talking about a scale of many multiple times between the two.

Also, I don't think other Bijuu could stand up to the Kyuubi because the Kyuubi seems more intelligent than the others. We also have an on-panel quote that tells us the Kyuubi has the most chakra out of them. My theory still holds that the more tails a beast has, the more powerful it is. Remember I argued for ages that the 9-tails is still the strongest at half the power, meaning, it is stronger than all the other bijuu combined, at full power. Meaning, it is closer to being like the 10-tails than any of the others.

Something I noticed while reading the Hanzo parts. This is purely speculation on my part but it might explain a scene that is sorta confusing at first glance. Hanzo gets attacked but uses a jutsu to attach tags to Nagato's legs and make them go boom. The peculiar thing he does though is call it a fire attack. I had originally thought this was just a mistranslation until I watched the anime and he indeed does call it Katon.

Idea: Explosive tags are made by those who have Fire affinity and as such those with fire affinities can use them from a distance. It seems to be one of if not the most common affinity of the 6 so it would make sense. The details of the making are a bit sketchy but it really doesn't matter very much. I just think it might make sense since we know they have paper than can channel chakra and exploding tags seem to work in the same regard.

The scene it is meant to explain is here, when Konan blocked Jiraiya's attack. I propose that Konan is indeed someone with Fire affinity(if the idea of exploding tags being made by those with fire techs is true it would explain how she made so many) and that she channel her "fire" chakra through her paper to cancel out his attack. It would also certainly make her think twice about attacking while covered in flamable oil. ^^

God knows it's reaching but it makes sense to me. ^^

Originally posted by dadudemon
Indeed. I would say that Minato is better than Tobi pre-Rinnigan. 😄

So I still hold my old position. 😄

Your old position was Minato > Hashirama based on their fights with Madara. uhuh
Everyone agrees that Minato > Pre-Rinnegan & Izanagi Tobi.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You used a joke smilie at the end. uhuh

Well, I was being serious. uhuh

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yes, Izi could work, as well. Not Danzo's form, but Madara's form. But, I see a problem with that: if the eye is vaped, then it doesn't matter if they have Izi. So it doesn't work unless they preserve the eye tha will perform the Izi.

Suiy: the reason I said "multiple" Bijuu blasts, like I did is for people like Suiy and Minato. They both can take one (minato could probably transport 2-5) at the very least. I don't think Kisame's missile has enough explosive damage to stop the bijuu blast from vaping his ass. I think we're talking about a scale of many multiple times between the two.

If Tobi activates Izanagi before the Ball hits, then I see no reason why it wouldn't work even if he and the eye got vaped, which is likely what happened when Konan used those explosions.
Danzo and the eyes were turned into mulch right after he first used Izanagi. It worked out just fine.

Ahh okay. Yeah, they couldn't get past multiple Bijuu Balls. Minato could transport more than 2-5 IMO. He only had trouble when he had to transport the Kyuubi as well, who is huge, and this was after his fight with Tobi.

His Giant Shark Missile absorbs chakra and gets stronger in proportion.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Also, I don't think other Bijuu could stand up to the Kyuubi because the Kyuubi seems more intelligent than the others. We also have an on-panel quote that tells us the Kyuubi has the most chakra out of them. My theory still holds that the more tails a beast has, the more powerful it is. Remember I argued for ages that the 9-tails is still the strongest at half the power, meaning, it is stronger than all the other bijuu combined, at full power. Meaning, it is closer to being like the 10-tails than any of the others.

The other Bijuu certainly wouldn't stand up to the Kyuubi in a fight, and I never said otherwise. What I stated was that a Bijuu could tank Menacing Balls depending on the circumstances.
Hachibi was unaffected by his own Bijuu Ball which vaped a valley, and he later stopped a Yang chakra Kyuubi Menacing Ball inside Naruto's head.

And yes, more tails = more chakra. I'm undecided on the 9 Tails being the strongest right now, but based on what Kisame said near the beginning of Part 2, the Kyuubi apparently had about as much chakra as the other 8 Bijuu did combined. That was at full power.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Your old position was Minato > Hashirama based on their fights with Madara. uhuh

No, that Minato is better than the Tobi that Minato fought and that a full powered Madara was not different than Tobi because, at the time, we thought that Tobi had the EMS Sharingan from Madara and that that was still the same madara but with less chakra.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Everyone agrees that Minato > Pre-Rinnegan & Izanagi Tobi.

I was arguing that the version of "Madara" that Tobi fought wasn't functionally weaker than his prime version: just had about half as much chakra to do jutsus with (meaning, he was just as powerful in abilities, speed, techs, etc...but just couldn't spam them as much as his prime because Hashirama "did" something to him).

His idea that the 10-tails would restore him to that form supported my position (because, we just had to assume it was Madara) and the 10-tails was just a chakra boost AND a new eye technique (that eye technique was additional to the chakra boost).

Keep in mind that I think that the full powered Kyuubi has as much as if not more chakra than all other 8 beasts combined. So I see the beasts as having as much chakra, on average, as much as a powerful chakra wielding ninja (like A or Jiraiya).

Well, I was being serious. uhuh

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
If Tobi activates Izanagi before the Ball hits, then I see no reason why it wouldn't work even if he and the eye got vaped, which is likely what happened when Konan used those explosions.
Danzo and the eyes were turned into mulch right after he first used Izanagi. It worked out just fine.

I don't remember that happening. He was still "whole" and his eyes were too.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Ahh okay. Yeah, they couldn't get past multiple Bijuu Balls. Minato could transport more than 2-5 IMO. He only had trouble when he had to transport the Kyuubi as well, who is huge, and this was after his fight with Tobi.

I thought it was the combo that caused him to tire? Transporting the blast and the bijuu was what I thought wore him out. It's the size of the object that wears you out, isn't it? The larger it is, the more chakra it takes?

But, yes, the blast would be smaller than the bijuu. Only when the Kyuubi created the ultimate bijuu ball did it absurdly eclipse the size of himself.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
His Giant Shark Missile absorbs chakra and gets stronger in proportion.

Sh*t, you're right. I forgot about that. cry

That was the whole thing about Gai's attack being effective: a major plot point of why Gai still won: it wasn't chakra.

So, yeah, add that to the list of characters that could take a Kyuubi wielding ninja.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
The other Bijuu certainly wouldn't stand up to the Kyuubi in a fight, and I never said otherwise. What I stated was that a Bijuu could tank Menacing Balls depending on the circumstances.

Could they? I don't think even the Kyuubi could take his own blast, can he?

Wasn't the kyuubi willing to kill himself in Naruto's mind just to avoid getting tamed by Naruto with his ultimate bijuu blast thing?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Hachibi was unaffected by his own Bijuu Ball which vaped a valley, and he later stopped a Yang chakra Kyuubi Menacing Ball inside Naruto's head.

But wasn't he on the very edge of the blast radius of that? I don't remember, man. And didn't he stop it by using some sort of nulling effect that used up all his chakra (lending credence to my thought that the kyuubi not only has more chakra than the others...but much more so even in his half chakra mode form...granted, B did say it took more chakra to be in Naruto's head(no homo)).

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
And yes, more tails = more chakra. I'm undecided on the 9 Tails being the strongest right now, but based on what Kisame said near the beginning of Part 2, the Kyuubi apparently had about as much chakra as the other 8 Bijuu did combined. That was at full power.

Really? Where did Kisame say that? Because that supports the position I held about the nine tails all these years.

That ALSO explains why Hashirama would give away multiple bijuu (for money or something): he kept one so powerful that even if they all banded together to fight Konoha, Konoha could still come out on top because his equaled all 8 others (or was greater in power).

Hypothesis: Tobi had the Rinnegan, but literally gave it to Nagato as part of his plans (and lost one of his eyes in the process), so Nagato could do the drastically draining task of summoning and syncing the statue. This reduced Tobi to only having the sharingan (probably eternal).

Tobi certainly gave Nagato the Rinnegan. The question is when and why.

Originally posted by Q99
Hypothesis: Tobi had the Rinnegan, but literally gave it to Nagato as part of his plans (and lost one of his eyes in the process), so Nagato could do the drastically draining task of summoning and syncing the statue. This reduced Tobi to only having the sharingan (probably eternal).

If he had the rinnigan, he could have made Nagato, so that's truth.

With the rinnigan, you can do awesome stuff like...create life.

So, it's possible that he's the sage or the sage's son like some have speculated.

TEH SAGES' SUN!

Considering he had to acquire Senju, maybe just the son 🙂

Originally posted by Q99
Considering he had to acquire Senju, maybe just the son 🙂

How ish he alive?

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
How ish he alive?

No idea. Maybe he steals hearts? 😉

Like you?

You know what would be awesome? He has Hidans tech. That would be awesome.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Like you?

faint

^

That's me face-palming so hard that I knocked myself out. 😐

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
You know what would be awesome? He has Hidans tech. That would be awesome.

Or just uses the Rinnigan to revive himself every so often...😄

Originally posted by dadudemon
That's me face-palming so hard that I knocked myself out. 😐

Or just uses the Rinnigan to revive himself every so often...😄

Just as freaking planned.

How would he do that?