Originally posted by dadudemon
No, that Minato is better than the Tobi that Minato fought and that a full powered Madara was not different than Tobi because, at the time, we thought that Tobi had the EMS Sharingan from Madara and that that was still the same madara but with less chakra.
You thought Tobi was Madara with less chakra. We didn't really know what he meant when he said that he was a shell. He wanted to use the Juubi to become complete, but he still wanted to carry out this plan even after he acquired the Rinnegan. I don't think he was simply at a fraction of his chakra levels. Besides, he'd have to be at a low percentage, like 5%, if he needed a huge-ass boost.
Of course, all this is moot anyway.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I was arguing that the version of "Madara" that Tobi fought wasn't functionally weaker than his prime version: just had about half as much chakra to do jutsus with (meaning, he was just as powerful in abilities, speed, techs, etc...but just couldn't spam them as much as his prime because Hashirama "did" something to him).His idea that the 10-tails would restore him to that form supported my position (because, we just had to assume it was Madara) and the 10-tails was just a chakra boost AND a new eye technique (that eye technique was additional to the chakra boost).
Keep in mind that I think that the full powered Kyuubi has as much as if not more chakra than all other 8 beasts combined. So I see the beasts as having as much chakra, on average, as much as a powerful chakra wielding ninja (like A or Jiraiya).
Lower tailed beasts I suppose. A could possibly have as much chakra as the Hachibi, but the Kyuubi has a lot more chakra at its disposal.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I don't remember that happening. He was still "whole" and his eyes were too.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v51/c476/18.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v51/c477/7.html
^ Not mulched up, but he was immolated by Amaterasu.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I thought it was the combo that caused him to tire? Transporting the blast and the bijuu was what I thought wore him out. It's the size of the object that wears you out, isn't it? The larger it is, the more chakra it takes?But, yes, the blast would be smaller than the bijuu. Only when the Kyuubi created the ultimate bijuu ball did it absurdly eclipse the size of himself.
The Bijuu was huge. The Menacing ball itself was miniscule in comparison. It only exploded after Minato had transported it.
Yes, I think the size of the object is directly proportional to how much chakra you have to use to transport something via Minato's tech. I also think distance is directly proportional as well.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Sh*t, you're right. I forgot about that. cryThat was the whole thing about Gai's attack being effective: a major plot point of why Gai still won: it wasn't chakra.
So, yeah, add that to the list of characters that could take a Kyuubi wielding ninja.
Yep. It only worked because his attack was Air Pressure.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Could they? I don't think even the Kyuubi could take his own blast, can he?Wasn't the kyuubi willing to kill himself in Naruto's mind just to avoid getting tamed by Naruto with his ultimate bijuu blast thing?
When Naruto slipped into his 6 Tailed transformation, he tanked the explosion of his own failed Bijuu Ball.
I do not think he was going to kill himself. He stated he was angered, and proceeded to create that huge blast to toss at Naruto. Of course, Naruto pwned him with the Sage's sealing tech.
Originally posted by dadudemon
But wasn't he on the very edge of the blast radius of that? I don't remember, man. And didn't he stop it by using some sort of nulling effect that used up all his chakra (lending credence to my thought that the kyuubi not only has more chakra than the others...but much more so even in his half chakra mode form...granted, B did say it took more chakra to be in Naruto's head(no homo)).
I think he was near the center. The anime shows him getting engulfed by the explosion.
He took the Kyuubi's menacing ball in its hand, and busted it inside his mouth. (no homo) vin
Originally posted by dadudemon
Really? Where did Kisame say that? Because that supports the position I held about the nine tails all these years.That ALSO explains why Hashirama would give away multiple bijuu (for money or something): he kept one so powerful that even if they all banded together to fight Konoha, Konoha could still come out on top because his equaled all 8 others (or was greater in power).
I'll see if I can find the scan. IIRC, he stated that the Kyuubi would have to be sealed in after the other Bijuu, so that it could balance the Statue.
^ I know eh?
Tobi is Kang. 😖hifty:
_____________________________
I think these are true.
Spoiler:Called it.
Onoki flies up to the meteor and uses his gravity jutsu to stop it from falling.
Spoiler:
Madara brings out a second meteor, which destroys most of the 4th Division. Naruto is saved by Dodai. Onoki survives. Gaara survives (obviously).
The ninja at the SA HQ feel the tremors from the Meteor's impact. Tsunade decides to head to the battlefield.Kabuto reveals that Madara had survived his battle with Hashirama, and had stolen some of his DNA. Madara wonders if Kabuto knows about 'their' plans. Kabuto states he is not sure if Tobi's goals are the same as Madara's.
Madara tries to summon the Kyuubi, but the Kyuubi refuses and instead lends some of its power to Naruto as it does not want to be controlled by Madara. Madara creates a forest, which Naruto destroys with his Multi Shadow Clone + Rasengan spam.
Onoki decides to get serious.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
You thought Tobi was Madara with less chakra. We didn't really know what he meant when he said that he was a shell. He wanted to use the Juubi to become complete, but he still wanted to carry out this plan even after he acquired the Rinnegan. I don't think he was simply at a fraction of his chakra levels. Besides, he'd have to be at a low percentage, like 5%, if he needed a huge-ass boost.Of course, all this is moot anyway.
If you consider that hosts have to have "bijuu levels" of chakra (for the most part), and then add in that the Kyuubi at half power is about equal to the other 8, combined, then you can easily see why someone who lost half of his chakra would be considered a "shell of his former self."
Adding in the 10-tails (after combined with the others) constitutes having the full powered Kyuubi in you (like Mito or Kushina). They had to have massive amounts of base chakra to be suitible hosts (else they'd quickly be taken over by the Kyuubi whenever they tried to tap into it's chakra...we know that didn't happen and that they were both quite good at controlling it).
So what this amounts to is bringing Madara/Tobi back to his original chakra levels, just like he mentioned. That put him really high up there....around Kushina and Mito's natural levels (sans Kyuubi). We already know Madara had lots of chakra as did Hashirama. So it should not be a wonder that Madara would be at Bijuu levels of chakra.
Putting in the ten tails (where it is missing a large portion...maybe up to half because of the Kyuubi) into his body would restore his chakra levels back to his old self, as he claimed.
HOWEVER! He'd have to have a way to increase his own natural chakra levels to balance out attempting to tap into the 10-tails chakra. Why? Cause he'd quickly be over taken and killed (like we found out during Naruto's training with B).
So his plan doesn't make much sense UNLESS he's referring to combining with his old form that was resurrected by Nagato...not Impure World Resurrection. So I don't know how things will go down now.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Lower tailed beasts I suppose. A could possibly have as much chakra as the Hachibi, but the Kyuubi has a lot more chakra at its disposal.
Agreed.
Karin had not seen the half-powered Kyuubi's chakra when Naruto goes into cloak mode. Everyone that has seen Naruto go into his cloaked mode (while losing his sh*t) has either sh*t their pants (or in the case of Oro) creamed them.
Basically, what I'm sayin, had Karin seen Naruto go four tails, she likely would have freaked out even more so than when A did his thing...mostly because that's a crap ton of chakra, all at once.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v51/c476/18.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v51/c477/7.html
^ Not mulched up, but he was immolated by Amaterasu.
I don't see him being destroyed completely enough to justify using Izy if you're completely destroyed.
Even being crushed like he was, he probably activated it before he was crushed and the remnants in Susano'o's hands were an illusion and not really him...how else did he get out of the grip?
Cause if he could just restore himself, then he'd still be in Susano'o's hands. So it has to be a combination of genjutsus and Izy to accomplish that Susano'o crushing thing.
The Ama thing? He obviously held his arm out to keep from getting vaped because he needs his arm to "revive" himself.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
The Bijuu was huge. The Menacing ball itself was miniscule in comparison. It only exploded after Minato had transported it.Yes, I think the size of the object is directly proportional to how much chakra you have to use to transport something via Minato's tech. I also think distance is directly proportional as well.
I was talking about both the one Minato transported and the one the Kyuubi tried to use against Naruto as a last resort.
The one Minato transported was huge. The one the Kyuubi made in Naruto's mind (the last one) was ginormous.
And I think the same, as well: it's both distance and size. Not so much distance, however.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
When Naruto slipped into his 6 Tailed transformation, he tanked the explosion of his own failed Bijuu Ball.I do not think he was going to kill himself. He stated he was angered, and proceeded to create that huge blast to toss at Naruto. Of course, Naruto pwned him with the Sage's sealing tech.
Again, wasn't the 6-tails form on the edge of the "crater" like the Hachibi?
I think the Kyuubi was going to kill himself: he pulled out every last drop of chakra he had in him and converted some of his own flash directly into chakra: he became very "bare bones" and skinny, like Nagato, when making that thing.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I think he was near the center. The anime shows him getting engulfed by the explosion.He took the Kyuubi's menacing ball in its hand, and busted it inside his mouth. (no homo) vin
Okay, if that's the case...then the only way to defeat a bijuu is by sealing techs: there's nothing more destructive than a Bijuu blast (the 10 tails blast is just a larger scale version of a bijuu blast).
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I'll see if I can find the scan. IIRC, he stated that the Kyuubi would have to be sealed in after the other Bijuu, so that it could balance the Statue.
Well, that's worse than I thought.
That means that the Kyuubi, at half power, is about equal to all other 8 Bijuu.
That's just ridiculous. So, like I said, the Kyuubi has most of the chakra of the 10 tails.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Soul transfer sounds a lot like another certain immortal in the show.Meaning he'd do it every 3 years, give or take.
Which would mean Tobi uses Orochimaru's tech to live forever.
Could work, doubt it though.
Well, I think Oro's tech is rudimentry, though. It's not perfect. Oro may have come across that jutsu and tried to replicate it as much as possible resulting in his crappy "once every 3 years" version.
Actually I'm kind disappointed in the meteor mash attack. It would have killed Madara were he not immortal. Then again, maybe he can use it from a distance.
Edit:
Spoiler:
The moment Kabuto called him on his bluff, Madara checked under his shirt. Could that perhaps indicate that he has Senju cells on his chest?Someone had to transplant those. My guess is Tobi. Hmmm...
It's funny that on hearing the name Uzumaki he just calls it Mito's clan.
Son of a *****....
Spoiler:
Gaara just had to try and stop the meteor with force alone. On to of that, he lives from the meteor virtually unscratched though out of chakra whereas Onoki's on his last leg. Plus Naruto's clone should've disappeared by now.
So this is what Mokuton is supposed to look like huh? Well I guess both Hashirama and Madara are solid S+ right?
And I'm not sure either Tsunade or A are aware that Tobi's about to go kick the crap out of them; seeing as how she wants to go out and all.
http://outskirtsbattledome.wikispaces.com/Popular+OBD+Fictions
I saw your post, Nephthys, so there's the link. I couldn't get the one of Naruto, but it's on the list. just scroll to down to the N's on the anime/manga list.
wow, yeah, I gotta hand it to Kishimoto on this: he did a great job on Madara (the real one). he is every bit as tough as he's supposed to be.