Lyrics and translation [merged]

Originally posted by Smodden
exa,,,why did sauron choose to become an eye...(or did he choose?) i knew he could take dif forms and stuff....and why is he stuck in that form now...i read this a while ago but i can't remember now...

I dont think he did choose it... because in my opinion, Sauron DOESNT appear as an eye - thats only a synonym for him because of his watchfulness and his Palantír - I mean, Melkor is also sometimes called "lidless eye" (like in the Lay of Leithian), and I dont really think some fiery red eye was hanging around on top of Baraddur. And if he chose it and really looks like one... probably to scare the free peoples and to look important ^^

so (excuse me if this is like 1st grade stuff here) the eye on barad dur was just somethin they "MADE UP" for the movie?....
then how did he mass armies and stuff?...

Another quick q, who's the oldest elf (that we know of)? I believe it's Galadriel since she was born from before the first age and left at the end of the 3rd. Also, are there such things as "elf-children"? I mean how are elves born and do they grow up for a period and then stop aging?

The great eye on Barad-dur has been in the books......

Well basically he used his almighty power of intimidation to make these orcs do as he pleased. If they don't follow directions, help him get the Ring, whisper of a nameless fear throughout Middle-Earth, destroy everything prissy, he'd kick their ugly rear-ends once he gains power.

And if they do....he'd kick their ugly rear-ends anyways.

Originally posted by mors823
Another quick q, who's the oldest elf (that we know of)? I believe it's Galadriel since she was born from before the first age and left at the end of the 3rd. Also, are there such things as "elf-children"? I mean how are elves born and do they grow up for a period and then stop aging?

Galadriel is the oldest elf in Middle-Earth, other then Cirdan. Galadriel is the only elf that actually remembers Valinor, what Valinor looks like. She came from there after all.

Yes there are elf-children, but it takes a veery looooong tiiiiiime to be considered 'mature' from the other elves. Like 300 years? Atleast?

Was in the book, yes, but if really described as a fiery eye then rather in Frodo's visions, but I dont think anybody ever mentions an eye hanging over Baraddur. They rather use the eye as a metaphor for his piercing sight and thought (compare songcontest with Finrod - "he chanted a song of wizardry | of piercing, opening, of treachery | revealing, uncovering, betraying" or something like that

Originally posted by mors823
Another quick q, who's the oldest elf (that we know of)? I believe it's Galadriel since she was born from before the first age and left at the end of the 3rd. Also, are there such things as "elf-children"? I mean how are elves born and do they grow up for a period and then stop aging?

In the beginning, there were exactly 144 elves that awoke in Cuivienen... but I think usually Galadriel, Celeborn and Cirdan are named as the oldest elves at the end of the first age. I think Galadriel would really be the oldest (though she has at least two long generations directly before here), but as I dont know the birth dates of the others, I dont know exactly ^^ ... Cirdan and Celeborn were also already born before the first age started and the sun made her first journey over the sky.

Originally posted by Kitoky
Yes there are elf-children, but it takes a veery looooong tiiiiiime to be considered 'mature' from the other elves. Like 300 years? Atleast?

Did ya answer Smod's second question Exa? About how the heck did he control the mass destructive dudes?

Thats what he had his stewards and captains and Saurons Mouth for ^^ a king also doesnt directly control all his soldiers... the only difference is that Sauron practically was the life of the orcs... thats a little difficult to explain, but thats like when Aule wants to create his dwarves but as Aule has only the life given to himself and cant create totally new one he is the spirit of them and they can only do something when he wants them to do it... but then Ilúvatar gave the dwarves their own will.
Thats a little different for the orcs, they most probably didnt get their own will but were at least a little selfsufficient and independant... but when sauron was destroyed, the very basement of their spirits was lost and they were well a little disorientated or died later 🙂

Originally posted by Exa
Thats what he had his stewards and captains and Saurons Mouth for ^^ a king also doesnt directly control all his soldiers... the only difference is that Sauron practically was the life of the orcs... thats a little difficult to explain, but thats like when Aule wants to create his dwarves but as Aule has only the life given to himself and cant create totally new one he is the spirit of them and they can only do something when he wants them to do it... but then Ilúvatar gave the dwarves their own will.
Thats a little different for the orcs, they most probably didnt get their own will but were at least a little selfsufficient and independant... but when sauron was destroyed, the very basement of their spirits was lost and they were well a little disorientated or died later 🙂

......I liked my explaination much better...

😄

what of the orcs created by Morgoth...they were elves that were tortured and turned into orcs and for that matter the later age orcs...when they die, do they go to Mandos as the other elves?

After all, they were elves first...It's not like they asked to be orcs.

Originally posted by Kitoky
......I liked my explaination much better...

😄

.................... me too

Originally posted by Fëanor
what of the orcs created by Morgoth...they were elves that were tortured and turned into orcs and for that matter the later age orcs...when they die, do they go to Mandos as the other elves?

After all, they were elves first...It's not like they asked to be orcs.

Sometimes its said that orcs were a "mockery" of the elves, sometimes they are real elves that were influenced by Morgoth and Thû/Sauron... if the second one is the case, I think they did go to Mandos' halls.

The main question here is - were they immortal? And I dont think they were because being immortal in Middleearth means that you are bound to the earth, you love the earth and her fate is your fate - which is the case for the elves, while men, the Strangers or the Guests, are not bound to the earth and after their death can depart from it to whereevernobodyknows ("but what iluvatar purposed for men after the end of the world he revealed not, and melkor didnt discover it" or something like that somewhere in the silmarillion.. *cant find*)

see I was just thinking...if they were elves at first then they should be immortal...and if they are and they do go to Mandos, are they there as there original selves or as disfigured spirits...

Is there any word in Elvish that expresses frustration like damn. In otherwords, is there anyway to swear in Elvish. Most likely there isn't, so don;t worry too much about this.

I dont know any really bad word... well I dont think the elves would have needed one 🙂

There are some constructions of simple words... no swearing though, rather things you can say at people you dont like... the only un-elvish elvish word I know is tûg, sometimes used as "fool" 🙄

Originally posted by Exa
Finnish manuscript? What dyou mean?

About the finnish language, the grammar? (C.N.E. Eliot "A Finnish Grammar" - 1890)
^ this is the book about which he wrote

"It was like discovering a complete wine-cellar filled with bottles of an amazing wine of a kind and flavour never tasted before. It quite intoxicated me; and I gave up the attempt to invent an 'unrecorded' Germanic language, and my 'own language' -- or series of invented languages -- became heavily Finnicized in phonetic pattern and structure"

but... what dyou mean with the reconstruction thing?

A Finnish man reconstructed an ancient manuscript of an old Norse myth in modern day Finnish. Tolkein used this as material for LOTR and learnt Finnish soley to be able to read it.

Doesn't 'mor' ('black'😉 also count as a word meaning 'ill' ?

Old Norse myth - the Edda (icelandic I think)? The Kalevala (finnish myth)? rather the last as it IS finnish 😛

I always thought Tolkien based the elvish language on Welsh...

well there are several elvish languages 🙂 ... one with phonetics and grammar systems somehow alike finnish (thats quenya), while the other one, Sindarin, the more common one, has similarities to welsh (like the mutations at the beginning of the words, the vowel-umlaute for the plural and the sounds in general)