USH'S MATRIX GAME FOURTH ASSIGNMENT (PHILOSOPHY PATH)- 'The Journey'

This all seems kind fo pointless to Catsor and hes getting abit agrevatied with te questions that seem to be going nowhere.

"Ugh....We make decisions based ont he information we are given. We either believe that information or we dont. If you asked us to choose between an apple and a pear anc we chose a pear, thus you gave us an organe, perhaps that was what we wanted...

The information we have about you would lead us to believe you are nto trust worth and that our decision would yeild and unwanted result. You cannot ask us to choose while ignoring key details, thats and unwise and unlikely course of action. If your going to project hypothetical situtations they have to be truely hypothetical. Based on our information our choice partly was to go the path that would help us understand Jericho, but it was also to trust you.

Making a decision isnt always blakc and white. Sometimes a decision between A & B is also a decision between C & D...."

(Hope i didnt go off to far on that one us...heh.)

"Castor, that's what he's saying. We didn't have the facts when we made our descion. I think if had been two doors, and one concealed a murderer to shoot us, then we would consider it unfair. The way you did it Melitus, gave us more control over our destiny. Admittedly it was a choice which we couldn't know the outcome of but we chose based on a matter more than pure chance.

If we had trusted you,and you killed us, more fool us. Although there is no evidence you are ot going to still kill us."

"So," says Melitus, "in your situation with the doors, and the situation I gave with the apple and pear, you say that in that case, the outcome did not reflect your choice, and so you cannot be said to have chosen it, yes? It would not be fair to say that you chose the orange or the murderer, because you had no information beforehand which would have suggested that that either an orange or a murderer would have resulted, is that what you are saying?"

"That seems to be the most logical and coherent of our responses. It is, in the end, what were basically trying to say."

"basicly, yeah.
It's kind of like this. If you had held your arms at your back, having a pear in one and an apple in one, and i would have said i wanted the apple, but chose the wrong hand...i would not have blamed you for showing me that in fact, the hand that i had chosen was the one with the pear.."

"So from what you say, it is not the possibility of deception in itself that would make saying you had made that choice invalid, but whether you KNEW of that possibility. You chose to learn more of Jericho accepting the possibility that this may result in harm, but when you chose the orange, you would want the orange and not expect anything else. In ther first case, that you might be harmed you appreciated and so was part of your choice, whereas in the second nothing but the orange was your choice, yes? So any other result I provide- like giving you a pear, or for that matter shooting you through the head, would very much be NOT what you chose when it came to simply chosing a fruit?"

"Yeah. Thats it, choosing a apple or an orange, is not choosing a pear. Choosing to come with you or not is nto choosing to be shot in the head...ya know?"

yep..that's it, ush..
i knew all the variables when choosing the fruit. it was there in front of me. i was visualising it and choosing speciffically for that fruit.

"Very well," says Melitus. "Then it can be seen that the information you have leads you to make certain assumptions, and you make your choice based on those assumptions. But if those assumptions are wrong- most likely due to inaccurate information, as in the case with the apples- then you see the choice as invalid, yes?

Whereas in the case of me asking you to chose whether to follow Jericho's path or not, part of your assumption was the risk involved, yes?"

yes...but part of the assumptions we make, are made considering the inaccuracy of the information as a possibility....

"Very well," says Melitus, "in that case, I may ask my next question.

"Are decisions based upon false assumptions still valid?"

yes, ofcourse.
bad decisions, but nontheless vaild

"This contradicts what you just said," says Melitus, "so please explain that."

Please be consistent, Dexx...

ummm

let me rephrase.
"yes, they are bad decisions, but valid."

(or is it that valid=bad in this case...)

If you look above, Dexx, you agreed with the following chain

- A choice made where you knew the circumstances of that choice and yet the result of it is not what you chose therefore makes that not your choice, and hence the choice was not valid

- As the circumstances of that choice are based on your assumptions, it is if those assumptions are wrong that the choice is invalid.

("But if those assumptions are wrong- most likely due to inaccurate information, as in the case with the apples- then you see the choice as invalid, yes?"- To this question you answered yes)

- Hence a choice made on a false assumption is invalid.

Then when simply directly asked the question you reversed your decision, a clear breech of consistency. You should not have agreed with Melitus is this is what you meant.

Incidentally, this line:

"yes...but part of the assumptions we make, are made considering the inaccuracy of the information as a possibility...."

Is problematic also. What if you considered the inaccuracy as a possibility but were wrong to do so? In the end, you never make choices based on negatives like that; that is logically not part of the function of choice. You only ever make a choice based on what you know- you cannot base it on what you do not know. You cannot even consider what you do not know because you would not be aware that you do not know it.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
If you look above, Dexx, you agreed with the following chain

("But if those assumptions are wrong- most likely due to inaccurate information, as in the case with the apples- then you see the choice as invalid, yes?"- To this question you answered yes)

- Hence a choice made on a false assumption is invalid.

the choice made on a false assumption is valid. It was me who had those assumptions, and me who benefits or suffers from the decision...

_

and to that last part.

in our case, i DID know what i didn't know. I didn't know what would become of us if we were to drink the wine. All of these unknown variables are gathered into a certain factor of risk.....wich we chose to take. So ..our choice wasn't made as much on what we DO know (because it wasn't much) but if whether or not to risk that unknown factor...

For a start, please respond to all that is asked and if you disagree with a part then say so. Unprecise answers are unhelpful.

Secondly, you seem to be confusing choice and consequence.

Furthermore, saying that a choice made on false assumptions is valid still directly contradicts what you said about the apple and pear situation.

Also, it is not possible to know what you do not know. Something you do not know when making a choice is something you would not even consider. As you considered what you said above, it does not fit into that cateogry. You knew a risk existed.

"A choice is a positive affirmation that you have taken to get the outcome you desire," says Melitus. "If you do not get the outcome you desire, then that is said to be the wrong choice. If afterwards you say that if you knew something THEN that you know now, you would have made a different choice- the right choice- then it is clear that your original choice was not valid due to that lack of information. You seem to be confusing a choice that exists with a choice that is valid.

"For anyone to truly make a choice, they must have accurate information on which to make that choice. Else the choice they make is not relevant; if they did not know the facts inherent with that choice their decision one way or another is of no consequence; it just becomes something that person does.

A choice made on false information has no relevance. It may as well be no choice at all. A genuine choice implies a level of control over a situation to the person making that choice."

"A choice made in the theoreical situation with the orange is not valid. The consequences, however, are. Does this make sense?"

"Enough for me to understand what you mean," says Melitus.

(And I should probably point out to Dexx that I am not saying he is wrong, far from it, but it is just hard for me to pin down where he stands)

"Certainly the distinction of conseqeunce and choice,. We invite consequence all the time. So what is your answer to my main question at this point- which invites you to challenge my apparent assumption if you so wish-

Are decsions based on false assumptions still valid?"

"yes, so long as false assumptions don't come from being missled"

(hope i'm not contrdicting myself again..)