USH'S MATRIX GAME FOURTH ASSIGNMENT (PHILOSOPHY PATH)- 'The Journey'

Yes! Haha... umm, sorry. Yeah, I shall just wait for the others...

However, as you guys think that one over, Melitus invites you to move on through the door. This time, you find yourself back in the original room- the couches, the panelled walls, the 'several' doors, and the table with the wine bottle and glasses on.

Also the painting, which you can take a closer look at if you wish...

Melitus will await the answer from the others on this question:

"So if everything in the Matrix is deceptive... how can any decision made inside it be valid? It is all based on false information..."

"wrong, the matrix as a whole is false. The information within is real, in it's own false environment."

"That simply seems a muddled contradiction in terms," says Melitus. "Information provided to you is either false or real, and there is no in-between. You agree the information is false, and you agree that decisions based on false information are not valid. Are you changing your answer on one of those things? Your answer as it stands actually says to me that information provided in the Matrix actually can be real- the environment in which that information is provided is an irrelevance..."

"what happens within the matrix, is real within the matrix, and not outside.."

"Something is either real or it is not," says Melitus. "'Inside' and 'outside' the Matrix are vague terms to be used with 'real'; all the Matrix is is perception.

"Everything in the Matrix exists- whether you see it as computer code or objects, it is there. THis cannot be denied.

"So I ask you my questions again... either you consider the input the Matrix gives you deceptive or not. If you are saying what happens within the Matrix is genuine, then you are saying it is not deceptive. And if it is real inside the Matrix, it is just as real wherever you are- in or out.

"For example, I am talking to you right now. Whether that is a deception of your senses or otherwise, that remains a constant in the totality of all reality, it does not stop being a fact when you leave the Matrix. You are seeing this room. That may be a deception. But it remains a deception, in or out. It is still present as presented.

"Your memories are real. All the skills you learned in the Matrix are real. You cannot say they did not happen. You learned to drive in the Matrix- given a car in the real world, you would be able to drive it- and not because of memory implantation, but simply because the software car you learned to drive in the Matrix is functionally identical inside the Matrix to a physical car outside of it. That skill is real. It is not a false skill- it works perfectly well outside the Matrix. You cannot place barriers between the existence of one world and the other- you can only point out the differences between them.

"So is it deceptive, or not? There is no in-between. However, what it can be is deceiving to some but noth others...

Rade, are you perhaps suggesting that for the people INSIDE the Matrix, the inmates, that the information provided is NOT deceptive?

It cannot be both ways. Either it deceives them and so therefore by your previous logic, their choices are not valid. or it does not deceive them, and what you earlier said about the Matrix being a lie is put into a different perspective..."

"The matrix is deceptive. However, the information given is real. The deception is that the matrix is the real world, when we know it is not."

Azrael said that choices made with deceptive informaiton were still choices, so does he have to answer this question?

well..dammit man..that kind of makes sense 🙂

so..i guess i am reffering to what you said about not being deceptive for the inmates...

The first bit us an unusual view, Azrael, but if in any case you think the Matrix supplies real info then you have answered this issue anyway. Some people may find that controversial to say the Matrix is not a lie though... especially for a rebel...

As for Rade:

"So, your original insistence about the false nature of the Matrix... does not apply to the inmates?" asks Melitus. "That appears to be a change of mind..."

aargh! mind twisting...you..youuu...can we kill meitus? pweaaaseee!

"it does apply for the inmates...it is false, they just don't know it"

"Oh, so it IS false?" says Melitus. "But of course, if a lie is successful, you would never know it, would you? That is the nature of successful deception. So by saying that it is false but they do not know it... are you not just going back to saying that the Matrix is deceptive for them as well? Successfully deceptive at that?

Surely you would admit that a person not knowing something is a deception hardly rules it out from being deceptive?"

Heheheh... Melitus would like people to think a particular way, but failing that, he is VERY satisifed to poke holes in your view of the world...

Azrael, who is of the opinion the Matrix is not false (did Azrael ever meet Cipher?), he is satisfied with for now as well. He's having fun hammering down Rade one way or another, he has an imporant question for Fire, and we are still waiting for Castor...

BTW, do not be afraid to admit where your logic takes you. Feel free to change your logic if you think it is taking you somewhere you do NOT want to be, but whatever you do, do not contravene your logic simply because you think you are being tricked into something.

I do not mind people changing their mind, so long as they alter their previous logic to fit what they now say.

As it stands, Rade, I am afraid not- Melitus appears impervious to all harm...

"it is a successfull deception for the inmates, yes. But unsuccessfull for us.....but..is an unsucessfull deception, not a deception anymore?"

"How unsuccessful is it for you?" asks Melitus. "Inside the Matrix, can you see the code? Do you ever think you cannot drive a car or pull a trigger because the object is not physical? Your brain is still being duped; that you KNOW that makes little difference... there are very few who are actually immune to the deception of the Matrix and you already know who the main exception amongst your kind is.

"Still, putting that to one side... if you admit that the deception is being practiced on the inmates, then by your previous logic you render all their choices invalid, because they are all based on false information."

*gasps and dies*

"not quite..."

i'll have to think about an answer

I guess Azrael is saying that the Matrix is a deception, but the info is real. The things inside it may not be real, but the information is.

^Mostly for me to clear up what I was thinking about to myself.

Ush, I'm going snowboarding for a week in Andorra, and I don't know if I will have nay access to a computer. This is for both games, but if there is a webcafe I will try and make at least one post here and in the LOTR one to help you along. However, in the LOTR rp, could you or Fire control my character?

I try not to control characters unles totally essential, but thanks for the heads-up! Basically, however, Trickster, you are saying that significant amounts of the Matrix are real (or not deceptive, anyway).

Ok, Rade, think about it. However, fair to warn you that a lot of time has been spent on this issue and I am looking to move on soon. If you are stuck, there is really no great shame in admitting either that you guess that logically speaking the Matrix is not as deceptive as you thought, OR that you guess that logically speaking the choices of people in it are not valid. That won't trap you into destroying humanity, or anything.

Anything from Castor?

"Hmm...Well, if information given about a false situation is given does it make the information false?

Say I am offering you an apple and an orange, but wehat I really have is a pear and a plum. If you the apple thinking you will get an apple, but instead you get a plum, is that information valid. Not really. It was false.

Technicalities aside the Matrix simply is not reality. It is a mental prison and and decision made here is based on false information. The information cannot be true if the world it is based on is all a lie. Thats how I feel."

Yes, that's what Azrael's saying... (What you said Ush)

Anyway, my last post before I go in 20 min.... I have no life 😄

okay, okay..i choose the second one...about the choices not being valid...

Ok then! So, we have:

Fire says that the Matrix is deceptive and so decisions in it are not valid.

Castor concurs

Rade agrees, though not very happily, and he specifies that it is true for the inmates only.

Azrael, on the other hand, does not agree; he says significant parts of the Matrix are real and hence not all decisions in there are invalid.

Melitus thanks you for your opinions on this matter and he now has a point to make based on that to Fire, Castor and Rade.

"The first question I asked you was if decisions in the Matrix were in ANY way less relevant than ones made outside of it," says Melitus. "Each of you answered no, in a decisive manner, saying that the decisions in it were just as relevant.

"I think again you will admit, having just concurred that decisions in the Matrix are not valid, even if just for inmates as you say, Rade... surely this changes your original answers... unless you are telling me that choices in the real world are not valid either, which I somehow doubt!"

Have fun, Azrael!

*cries*

the choices are not valid, for the inmates, for wich the matrix is a successful deception. their decisions are based on a false information..