We may be physically in the matrix the same but the clone is governed by code. I am by my own brain. While perfection is not the purpose of all programs it is the program of the clone. To perfectly emulate Castor, that is its purpose. It was made to be a convincing copy of me. Therefore it has to try and do that perfectly. The program is bound by the parameters of perfectly portraying Me. The electrical signals I use are interpreted form my brain activity. The Clones are interpreted from code.
Err, no, it IS a perfect copy of you (at the very least in theory). Its purpose is as open as your own. It has no purpose in trying to emulate you- that was Melitus' job when he created it. Its purpose is simply in being a sentient being and whatever purpose you do or do not apply to that. So assuming you are you, the copy is just fine. Your electrical signals are your mind- 'you'. Your brain is currently, as it were, 'empty'. The part of you that is yourself has been broadcast into the Matrix; that has now been locally duplicated.
So as I say, if you accept that you are you in the Matrix- and I am pretty sure you do think that- then a perfect copy of you does not differ in purpose in any way. Even if you are not fully yourself in the Matrix... which would be an interesting thrust... it still wouldn't be relevant because we would then be referring purely to the 'Matrix-you' rather than the 'full-you' as it were. Point is, everything you are in the Matrix, he is also.
There is a difference in your origins which is objectively significant to be sure, but in this scenario it is completely irrelevant. True, you can leave the Matrix- but only because you are being broadcast into it. If HE was being broadcast into it, he could leave it as well, so that is just a situational difference- after all, situation dictates that you cannot leave the Matrix right now either. Change the situation and he could leave also. Machines do not generally have an interest in physical existence but he does not think like a Machine, even assuming a Machine has to think like anything- he thinks like you. It could BE you.
He never will leave the Matrix, of course- well, probably not; the Machines won't let him out and even if he found the Mero and cut a deal to be smuggled out, where would he go? He cannot enter the mainframe or machine city unless he actively changes sides. In theory the rebels could build a body for him but we know that the Rebels don't know anything about this whole Trainman lark so that situation will not occur, even if it wre possible considering all the complications involved, which seems unlikely.
The situation presented is that there is a 50/50 chance you are the AI. Even I do not know which of you is which. Can you definitively give me a reason to say that 'Melitus is wrong- I CANNOT be the AI'?
If not, then debate on the nature of machine existence is futile. Such discussions are interesting but such opinions don't really help you at a point where time is running out.
I cannot help thinking that this kind of talk would have been more helpful from the start, because there are points floating around that I keep seeing as ones that potentially could form part of a submission, but it is difficult to isolate the parts in particular.
Which reminds me... I think I will give this another week.
"the way i see it..." starts Rade "...it's very simple. There is absolutely no way we can decide who is real and who is not. I can't realise whether or not i am me, or a copy of me, and neither can that fellow over there that equaly claims to be me. So i cannot seem to reduce the random-ness of it all. I do not care who drinks, as long as the real Rade lives on. And not knowing who that is, i don't know who has to drink. So by a random choice i offer to drink, hoping that it is me who is the copy. It would be exactly the same for me, if the other one offered to drink, but then i would hope that it is he who is the copy. As it is me talking right now the only edge i have on making a decision, i offer to drink..."
1. i accept the fact that i might be the copy. It is equally possible, as if i'd be the real me.
2. yes, hence my decision to drink. it's 50% chance that i'm the copy, and not having any way to verify that....i guess the only solution is to check. So me resorting to a self-destructive act is just a way of seeing which one's which.
There ya go, there is a difference. If everything he is in the matrix, I am, then I need ot distinguish a real world difference, The broadcasting seems logical. But how can that convince one of us to drink and th eother not. There is no way to see who is being broadcast and who isnt, w/o trying to jack out.
Originally posted by Castor
There ya go, there is a difference. If everything he is in the matrix, I am, then I need ot distinguish a real world difference, The broadcasting seems logical. But how can that convince one of us to drink and th eother not. There is no way to see who is being broadcast and who isnt, w/o trying to jack out.
As I said, that is a situational difference. Would you decide which one of you dies if Melitus had put you in different coloured jackets?
Your right., but i was confusing the need to decide who drinks. I fgured a difference could help me decide. Sorry Ush. (You sound pissed.)
Don't ask me what the 'real question' is; I gave you the 'real question'.
I forgot the question -feels slow..- Sorry Ush.
I know on a basis for deciding who should drink a difference between the people, the room is out. Basically anything about the current siutation is out. Because they're the same. It has to be something else. Something not related, but i suppose still related..
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Ok, and you have nothing to advance other than leaving it to chance becuase you cannot distinguish between the two as AI and Human? What is your justification for Human survival, btw?
it's true i cannot distinguish the two as AI and human. there's no perceivable difference between the two WITHIN THE MATRIX. and..since we're within the matrix....
My justification for human survival? well...at the very end, man will always be superior to the machine. detail the question a lil bit..
I want to know why your desirable outcome, if chance goes your way, is that the Human survives. Presumably if you could distinguish the two you would chose human also, so I want to know why.
And... if your entire submission is "I cannot tell so I am just going to kill myself and hope I am not the Human" I have to say, that won't really score, even if you live. That's not engaging with the problem.
Castor, I am not pissed until I use capiitals... heh... I am just worried for you guys is all!
There is not necessarily anything for you to find, Castor. I think it was Azrael I told that the criteria for deciding who drinks can, if need be, be not even vaguely clever or intellectual- so long as I have a factor both personas would agree with! It so happens by being willing to commit suicide and not caring, Rade has solved that problem via the justification for who drinks that he stated... it is just his submission as a whole has not really wrestled with the conundrum.
eek...then...i'll think about adding something...rhough i can't think of much
The human would have to survive, because it can be of more use to the cause, the greater purpose, he already knows about. SHould the real RAde die, 'I'd only be a clone wraithing the matrix KNOWING that 'I'm a copy of someone that existed beyond this
'