Vader Vs. Dr. Doom

Originally posted by demigawd
He wouldn't use telepathy to rip Doom's armour off. He'd use the Force. And given that in comics he's ripped doors off starships before, it's easy to see.

Yeah, if you think that ripping doors of and ripping off Doom's armour are both equally easy tasks. I don't think it is, but then I'm crazy. I always have to go that one bit further.

Originally posted by demigawd
Doom resisting the Force? A fundamental component of all reality? tee hee hee. Rather funny.

The force has been overcome but humans before, with nothing more than Lightsabres.

Originally posted by demigawd
If Doom had the same tech as the Empire, he would have conquered the world before. I haven't seen him make any planet-destroying ships, either. Don't think Doom has seen that before.

I haven't seen him make any planet destroying ships either. But we both know he could. I haven't seen Vader make one, I've seen the Empire and it's multiple thousand strong army of stormtroopers and random cannon fodder soldiers make one.

Vader couldn't have made it alone.

-AC

Originally posted by grey fox
Yes i have, and i have to admit the cartoon jedi are quite impressive but when EIGHT jedi get owned by a cyborg with some fancy lightsaber moves you have to wonder how 'powerful' the force honestly is

Some people think the Force makes you do everything you want.

Obi-Won and Qui-Gon had to book it when two Destroyers showed up with force fields... I some how think Doom has a better force field then they did.

Originally posted by who?-kid
The force is the most overrated euhrm, "force" ever lol.

Some people think the Force makes you do everything you want.

Exactly. "The force is a fundamental component of all reality" doesn't equate to "If you can use a tiny bit of it to an ok degree, you control everything."

-AC

Yeah Jedi are able to tap into the force for some power and even manipulated it a tad but the don't controll it, or even close to it. When Vader said the power to destroy a planet is nothing compared to the force he was right since the force connects all living things in the Universe but he was in no way implying that he had the power to destroy a planet. He is able to use an miniscule amount of the force... hell he'd be hard pressed to lift a city bus with his tk.

Lest we forget that the force did jack when he was on the floor getting whooped in a swordfight that left him dead.

-AC

Actually, Vader was meant to fall to a saber so that the prophesy could be fulfilled.

His falling was just a small part of an obligatory chain reaction of events that had to unfold in order to bring balance to the force.

And the swordfight didn't leave him dead. He got right back up and he had to in order to complete the next chain of events.

It was all predestined. Much like the story f Jesus. From his virgin birth to his death (sacrifice).

I'm still with Vader.

All that really says is Vader sucks at swordfighting.

If he had to fall to a lightsabre, why didn't he let Obi-Wan kill him? Unless you mean he had to fall to his son.

Personally I think all the prophecy is far too sketchy. I go by what I've seen, and I've not seen him use the force to any degree that can beat or affect Doom.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
If he had to fall to a lightsabre, why didn't he let Obi-Wan kill him? Unless you mean he had to fall to his son.

Personally I think all the prophecy is far too sketchy. I go by what I've seen, and I've not seen him use the force to any degree that can beat or affect Doom.

-AC

Have you read any SW comics?

The Force and its capabilities are more potent in the comics than in the movies.

And being that this is a comic forum I think people should refer more to the comic version Vader than in movie Vader.

In Dark Horse, I've seen Vader wield the Force in ways that've convinced me that he can defeat Dr. Doom.

Being a brilliant war strategist, I think Vader is a much better sorcerer as well after knowing what their both magically capable of. I'm not saying it'll be a bloody massacre though.

I saying Vader will win.

I swear you've been referring to the movies ever since, episode 3 included. Rather large 180 turn you've done.

Even in the comics, he doesn't become some God. I read the Star Wars comics for a bit. Never saw anything that even remotely seemed powerful compared to Marvel, or Doom.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yeah, if you think that ripping doors of and ripping off Doom's armour are both equally easy tasks. I don't think it is, but then I'm crazy. I always have to go that one bit further.

Actually, I do think ripping doors off is as easy as ripping off Doom's armor. Just because Doom's wearing it doesn't make it somehow harder to rend or remove...it's just iron.

The force has been overcome but humans before, with nothing more than Lightsabres.

Well, you're talking Force vs. Force here. And the Force has affected other wielders of the Force. Just look at their style of fighting in the comics (since this is a comic board, that's all I'm going by). *slash* *slash* *force push* *jump* *force disarm* *force rearm* *slash* *force superkick* *force throw*.

No non-force sensitive person has ever resisted being moved by the Force if the wielder wanted that person to move. Never. They've resisted mind-attacks, and that's why I'm not using that in my argument...I'm convinced that Doom would resist Mind Tricks.

I haven't seen him make any planet destroying ships either. But we both know he could. I haven't seen Vader make one, I've seen the Empire and it's multiple thousand strong army of stormtroopers and random cannon fodder soldiers make one.

Vader couldn't have made it alone.

That's the problem with no prep. Doom doesn't have time to build a time machine or planet-destroying ships. Doom's got nothing but his shield and his gun. Shouldn't be a problem for Vader.

Originally posted by demigawd
Actually, I do think ripping doors off is as easy as ripping off Doom's armor. Just because Doom's wearing it doesn't make it somehow harder to rend or remove...it's just iron.

Hahahaha, Doom's armour is very clearly not just Iron.

Originally posted by demigawd
Well, you're talking Force vs. Force here. And the Force has affected other wielders of the Force. Just look at their style of fighting in the comics (since this is a comic board, that's all I'm going by). *slash* *slash* *force push* *jump* *force disarm* *force rearm* *slash* *force superkick* *force throw*.

Exactly. Coz it's all primitive combat. They never use the force decisively. They certainly don't have the kind of power that can completely strip Marvel's near top villain of his extremely complexed, intricate and technological armour by extending their hand and willing it. However you clearly believe that if they can do it to doors, they can do it to Doom.

Originally posted by demigawd
No non-force sensitive person has ever resisted being moved by the Force if the wielder wanted that person to move. Never. They've resisted mind-attacks, and that's why I'm not using that in my argument...I'm convinced that Doom would resist Mind Tricks.

Even though I'm not convinced it's relevant enough to be a swinger, the force only exists in SW universe. Right? Doom's tech isn't just Marvel stuff. It would quite clearly work everywhere else.

Originally posted by demigawd
That's the problem with no prep. Doom doesn't have time to build a time machine or planet-destroying ships. Doom's got nothing but his shield and his gun. Shouldn't be a problem for Vader.

Hahaha. Doom has nothing but his shield and his gun. Quite hilarious.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Hahahaha, Doom's armour is very clearly not just Iron.

????

What else is it? His armor is made out of iron. He's said it himself. It's metal. it's held together by rivets, nuts and bolts. It's not Adamantium, it's not Uru, it's not Promethium...it's iron. What makes his armor formidable is the sophisicated technology within. But the base elements are all the same - it's metals, circuits, electricity. There's no reason why it would be immune to the Force.

Exactly. Coz it's all primitive combat. They never use the force decisively. They certainly don't have the kind of power that can completely strip Marvel's near top villain of his extremely complexed, intricate and technological armour by extending their hand and willing it. However you clearly believe that if they can do it to doors, they can do it to Doom.

In the comic, Luke made a droid completely fall apart. They've bashed Destroyers through their shield, actually making them HIT against their own shields repeatedly until they broke. If that's not decisive use of The Force, I don't know what is. Vader was able to block the energy blasts from Boba Fett with his lightsaber and with his hands. I don't see anything so fancy about Doom's gauntlet blast that it would somehow do what Boba Fett and Hans Solo and any number of opponents with sophisicated weapons were unable to do.

Even though I'm not convinced it's relevant enough to be a swinger, the force only exists in SW universe. Right? Doom's tech isn't just Marvel stuff. It would quite clearly work everywhere else.

When doing cross-universe battles, to be fair, I try to put it on neutral battleground with everything they're used to working works. I don't think of Flash vs. Quicksilver as going to Quicksilver because there's no speedforce, and I don't de-activate Omega Beams against Marvel Opponents because they're in "another universe". I think it's fairer that way. But I suppose it's personal preference, or up to the thread starter to specify.

Hahaha. Doom has nothing but his shield and his gun. Quite hilarious.

And quite true. I don't know what Doom could do to Vader that he hasn't demonstrated the ability to block/deflect at some point. And Vader has quite clearly shown the ability to affect things through forcefields.

Originally posted by demigawd
What else is it? His armor is made out of iron. He's said it himself. It's metal. it's held together by rivets, nuts and bolts. It's not Adamantium, it's not Uru, it's not Promethium...it's iron. What makes his armor formidable is the sophisicated technology within. But the base elements are all the same - it's metals, circuits, electricity. There's no reason why it would be immune to the Force.

Well there's also no reason why just because he can pull an inanimate object from it's hinges, that he can pull and biologically and technologically attached battle suit from Dr. Doom.

Originally posted by demigawd
In the comic, Luke made a droid completely fall apart. They've bashed Destroyers through their shield, actually making them HIT against their own shields repeatedly until they broke. If that's not decisive use of The Force, I don't know what is. Vader was able to block the energy blasts from Boba Fett with his lightsaber and with his hands. I don't see anything so fancy about Doom's gauntlet blast that it would somehow do what Boba Fett and Hans Solo and any number of opponents with sophisicated weapons were unable to do.

Those are Jedi swordfights though. Not Dr. Doom and his arsenal Vs Darth Vader.

You're assuming that Doom is standing there firing a pistol at him though. Doom has concussion beams. See the theoretical example I posted earlier if you haven't already.

Originally posted by demigawd
When doing cross-universe battles, to be fair, I try to put it on neutral battleground with everything they're used to working works. I don't think of Flash vs. Quicksilver as going to Quicksilver because there's no speedforce, and I don't de-activate Omega Beams against Marvel Opponents because they're in "another universe". I think it's fairer that way. But I suppose it's personal preference, or up to the thread starter to specify.

Well Omega Beams don't have a reason to not work. Vader doesn't bring the force wherever he goes. It's an SW Universe aspect. Not a universal one.

Originally posted by demigawd
And quite true. I don't know what Doom could do to Vader that he hasn't demonstrated the ability to block/deflect at some point. And Vader has quite clearly shown the ability to affect things through forcefields.

Vader isn't even the most competent at using the force he CAN tap into. Let alone use enough to block all Doom has and strip the man's armour.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Well there's also no reason why just because he can pull an inanimate object from it's hinges, that he can pull and biologically and technologically attached battle suit from Dr. Doom.

It's not like the armor is symbiotically grafted onto Doom. It's just armor. It IS an inanimate object and it's hinged to itself. Doom is just inside of it. Doom doesn't have to go through some cosmic ritual to take it off....he just takes it off. Same as what The Force would do.

Those are Jedi swordfights though. Not Dr. Doom and his arsenal Vs Darth Vader.

Vader beat Boba Fett and his arsenal. There's no evidence to suggest that one uses more sophisicated technology than the other with their default weapons.

You're assuming that Doom is standing there firing a pistol at him though. Doom has concussion beams. See the theoretical example I posted earlier if you haven't already.

I came to the thread late. If this was in the beginning of the thread or buried somewhere, I'm not going to look, lol. Was it a long example or something you could post again real quick?

Well Omega Beams don't have a reason to not work. Vader doesn't bring the force wherever he goes. It's an SW Universe aspect. Not a universal one.

Purists say that Omega Beams erase someone from The Source. MU characters aren't governed by The Source, therefore you can't erase them with Omega Beams. I'd rather not rob somebody of their key powers on a technicality.

Vader isn't even the most competent at using the force he CAN tap into. Let alone use enough to block all Doom has and strip the man's armour.

I don't see why not. He's not destroying starships...he's fighting a single opponent who is good, but Doom's standard arsenal isn't anything overwhelming. Vader's faced wiliness and diverse firepower before and come away just fine. I'd give Doom the edge over Boba Fett, but not so much so that he's out of Vader's league.

Originally posted by demigawd

In the comic, Luke made a droid completely fall apart.

Have you just read the comic then, I'm sure a page back you hadn't read any.

After someone mentioned that that comic versions are more powerful, I wanted to read for myself. So I went to the comic shop to pick up my weekly supply and picked up Boba Fett: Enemy of the Empire and some other Clone War trades. Not a bad read, actually.

Sounds, how do you say, plausible.

Originally posted by demigawd
It's not like the armor is symbiotically grafted onto Doom. It's just armor. It IS an inanimate object and it's hinged to itself. Doom is just inside of it. Doom doesn't have to go through some cosmic ritual to take it off....he just takes it off. Same as what The Force would do.

Vader beat Boba Fett and his arsenal. There's no evidence to suggest that one uses more sophisicated technology than the other with their default weapons.

You're overrating the power of the force, by a long way. Doom can control his suit alot better than Darth Vader, who is around more or less because of Dr. Doom.

Boba Fett is a lone bounty hunter. Even in the books he doesn't show anything that is majorly impressive to someone who reads Marvel comics. The only similarity is that they wear armour and work, alone.

Originally posted by demigawd
I came to the thread late. If this was in the beginning of the thread or buried somewhere, I'm not going to look, lol. Was it a long example or something you could post again real quick?

If you stood behind someone using powerful concussion blasts, such as Doom, and had merely Vader to protect you by extending his hand, would you feel safe? I can't say I would.

Originally posted by demigawd
Purists say that Omega Beams erase someone from The Source. MU characters aren't governed by The Source, therefore you can't erase them with Omega Beams. I'd rather not rob somebody of their key powers on a technicality.

It's not even his power. If the force never existed, he'd be a nobody. Just like if fire never existed, Pyro would be useless. Doom wouldn't be, because he can create, not just use.

Originally posted by demigawd
I don't see why not. He's not destroying starships...he's fighting a single opponent who is good, but Doom's standard arsenal isn't anything overwhelming. Vader's faced wiliness and diverse firepower before and come away just fine. I'd give Doom the edge over Boba Fett, but not so much so that he's out of Vader's league.

Doesn't need to overwhelm, just defeat, which I believe it can do.

There's a difference between facing off against Boba Fett and surviving and facing Doom and being "just fine".

-AC