Vader Vs. Dr. Doom

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

I swear you've been referring to the movies ever since, episode 3 included. Rather large 180 turn you've done.

Even in the comics, he doesn't become some God. I read the Star Wars comics for a bit. Never saw anything that even remotely seemed powerful compared to Marvel, or Doom.

-AC

I have been refering to the movies including ep. 3 all this time. But if you reread my post Alpha, this time more carefully, You'd see that I merely suggested that I think people should refer more to the comic version of Vader than in movie Vader being that this is a comic forum.

No 180 turns have been taken.

You've read the SW comics for a bit? It might not have been a while enough to know Vader as its not enough to know about Dr. Doom by reading just a bit.

Vader is powerful in more ways than a few. Non-Movies. I just came back from watching "Sin City" and there was a F.F. poster i noticed.

I though that maybe when this movie comes out there can be a Movie Vader vS Movie Dr. Doom just as they have one for comics.

Although. I'll have to honestly say, Dr. Doom looks very.... not intimidating to say the least lets say lol, but then again looks can be decieving, right. As Obi wan said: "Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." (anh'77)

Vader wins.

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
I have been refering to the movies including ep. 3 all this time. But if you reread my post Alpha, this time more carefully, You'd see that I merely suggested that I think people should refer more to the comic version of Vader than in movie Vader being that this is a comic forum.

No 180 turns have been taken.

You've read the SW comics for a bit? It might not have been a while enough to know Vader as its not enough to know about Dr. Doom by reading just a bit.

Well if the Comics were only a mere suggestion amongst rife movie suggestions, I'm gonna draw the obvious conclusion.

A bit doesn't just mean one comic. He's more powerful in the comics yes, but like I said. Not enough, in my opinion, to overcome Doom. By far.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You're overrating the power of the force, by a long way. Doom can control his suit alot better than Darth Vader, who is around more or less because of Dr. Doom.

Congratulations to Doom for being the inspiration for Vader's design. Back on topic, I'd only believe that Doom could *prevent* Vader from pulling it apart is if he has some kind of feat where he auto-repaired or the armor was automatically placed on him, or the armor itself is sealed with some kind of energy (I've never seen such a reference made). Otherwise, Doom has no feats to show that he could prevent his armor from being removed. If Vader breaks off Doom's gauntlet and drops it on the ground...Doom has to bend down and pick it up like anyone else. And considering that Doom's gauntlet is simply iron, circuits and nuts and bolts, there's no reason why Vader would be unable to affect it.

Boba Fett is a lone bounty hunter. Even in the books he doesn't show anything that is majorly impressive to someone who reads Marvel comics. The only similarity is that they wear armour and work, alone.

I've only read his fight with Vader and he seemed mightly impressive. Reminded me of a cross between Iron Man and Batman with his mobility and array of weapons. It didn't do him any good, as Vader defeated every weapon tossed his way. His array of weapons I found to be at least as impressive as Doom's, and Doom's own array of weapons I find to be below Stark's.

If you stood behind someone using powerful concussion blasts, such as Doom, and had merely Vader to protect you by extending his hand, would you feel safe? I can't say I would.

The power to destroy planets is insignificant next to the power of the Force. lol. I If someone was firing powerful concussion blasts, I wouldn't feel safe no matter what, lol.

It's not even his power. If the force never existed, he'd be a nobody. Just like if fire never existed, Pyro would be useless. Doom wouldn't be, because he can create, not just use.

I can buy that. So if the stips include Vader has no access to the Force, then clearly he'd lose. But what's the point of that? That would make the thread as useless as the "Doom with no prep vs. Strange with no magic" battle.

Doesn't need to overwhelm, just defeat, which I believe it can do.

There's a difference between facing off against Boba Fett and surviving and facing Doom and being "just fine".

In a no-prep situation, I don't see the difference. He beat Boba Fett and all his tech and weapons. I haven't seen Doom do anything without prep that was moumentally impressive. He took out Warlock, which is nice. But so did Spider-Man. *shrug*

Well... Boba Feat had one of those shitty star wars blasters that fire beam that are slower then a freaking bullet. You not only see the blast on screen but you hear it first an r2-d2 and C3P can clumsily stuble through hails of blaster fire.

Hey FistOfThe North what did you think of Sin City? I thought it was great and it was almost right on with the comics! There was some differences but they weren't to bad. I recoment everyone see it... despite the fact that that QT was guest director

Originally posted by demigawd
Congratulations to Doom for being the inspiration for Vader's design. Back on topic, I'd only believe that Doom could *prevent* Vader from pulling it apart is if he has some kind of feat where he auto-repaired or the armor was automatically placed on him, or the armor itself is sealed with some kind of energy (I've never seen such a reference made). Otherwise, Doom has no feats to show that he could prevent his armor from being removed. If Vader breaks off Doom's gauntlet and drops it on the ground...Doom has to bend down and pick it up like anyone else. And considering that Doom's gauntlet is simply iron, circuits and nuts and bolts, there's no reason why Vader would be unable to affect it.

You think Doom stands there with a tool kit to repair his suit? Of course it has a repair mechanism in it. Even Iron-Man has that.

Vader isn't Magneto, if he could just pull anything of threat away, he'd do it to everyone.......Boba Fett maybe? He didn't though.

Originally posted by demigawd
I've only read his fight with Vader and he seemed mightly impressive. Reminded me of a cross between Iron Man and Batman with his mobility and array of weapons. It didn't do him any good, as Vader defeated every weapon tossed his way. His array of weapons I found to be at least as impressive as Doom's, and Doom's own array of weapons I find to be below Stark's.

Doom isn't going to stand there tossing weapons. Doom isn't Boba Fett.

Originally posted by demigawd
The power to destroy planets is insignificant next to the power of the Force. lol. I If someone was firing powerful concussion blasts, I wouldn't feel safe no matter what, lol.

Well then why do you assume the force can stop Doom?

Originally posted by demigawd
I can buy that. So if the stips include Vader has no access to the Force, then clearly he'd lose. But what's the point of that? That would make the thread as useless as the "Doom with no prep vs. Strange with no magic" battle.

I wasn't saying with no access, my reference was with the force.

Originally posted by demigawd
In a no-prep situation, I don't see the difference. He beat Boba Fett and all his tech and weapons. I haven't seen Doom do anything without prep that was moumentally impressive. He took out Warlock, which is nice. But so did Spider-Man. *shrug*

That's a moot point. Thanos took out Surfer........but so did Wolverine. Spider-Man can't beat Adam Warlock, Doom can.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You think Doom stands there with a tool kit to repair his suit? Of course it has a repair mechanism in it. Even Iron-Man has that.

When has he repaired himself?

Either way, his suit isn't sealed with energy - there's nothing actually there to prevent it from being taken apart. Terrax locked the whole thing up - Doom couldn't do spit about it.

Vader isn't Magneto, if he could just pull anything of threat away, he'd do it to everyone.......Boba Fett maybe? He didn't though.

He deflected and disarmed Boba Fett. Fett just pulled out another weapon and Vader dealt with that too.

Doom isn't going to stand there tossing weapons. Doom isn't Boba Fett.

True. Instead Doom will try to shoot him and have it blocked and deflected for his efforts. I'd say that worse.

Well then why do you assume the force can stop Doom?

The Force has a 100% success rate as telekinesis. And Yoda said that it's limited only to your ability to conceive. Essentially a pebble is as easy to manipulate as a starship - as long as you can conceive of them both.

That's a moot point. Thanos took out Surfer........but so did Wolverine.

In a What If. So it's non-canon.

Spider-Man can't beat Adam Warlock, Doom can.

Why make that conclusion when they're both 1-0 against Warlock?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Hey FistOfThe North what did you think of Sin City? I thought it was great and it was almost right on with the comics! There was some differences but they weren't to bad. I recoment everyone see it... despite the fact that that QT was guest director

I've never read any of Frank Millars work.

The movie,...looked good. It had the all-star cast to support the pure noir/comicbook element it had that blew me away just as well as the scores did. It was gory as all hell, lol! It revolved mostly around ass kicking and killing people and naked chicks than an actual story, I thought. How about J.Alba. o'maan.

Um.. I didn't really understand the plot, though. To me it just looked like a bunch of irrelevant individual scenarios that somehow have everything to do with each other at the end. Or not? I dunno. lol! It's pretty long also. The movie to was like Kill Bill type of non-comedic comedy where the film was serious but yet you had people laughing.

I would go see it again if I were invited. But otherwise I wouldn't go pay to see it again. But thats just my opinion.

Originally posted by demigawd
When has he repaired himself?

Either way, his suit isn't sealed with energy - there's nothing actually there to prevent it from being taken apart. Terrax locked the whole thing up - Doom couldn't do spit about it.

There isn't factual evidence for everything but I think, regardless of your like/dislike of Doom, it is safe to assume that the man doesn't stroll around without a repair mechanism. If his suit was crap once damaged, he would have to retreat, this isn't the case. He was already planning to go back for more when Thanos blasted him.

Locking up armour and removing it via a "force" are two different things.

Originally posted by demigawd
He deflected and disarmed Boba Fett. Fett just pulled out another weapon and Vader dealt with that too.

So? Point is that he can deflect and disarm a bounty hunter in body armour with a few guns. I'm with you.

Originally posted by demigawd
True. Instead Doom will try to shoot him and have it blocked and deflected for his efforts. I'd say that worse.

So then he'll keep shooting, and shooting. With more and more blasts, he has more powerful blasts than any Star Wars blaster, being that they are standard issue rifles. Vader is good at deflecting but he's no Bishop. Sooner or later he will fall to them.

Originally posted by demigawd
The Force has a 100% success rate as telekinesis. And Yoda said that it's limited only to your ability to conceive. Essentially a pebble is as easy to manipulate as a starship - as long as you can conceive of them both.

Vader considers himself a Jedi/Sith master. Haven't seen him display any starship manipulating ability. Must not have grasped the whole conceiving malarky.

Originally posted by demigawd
In a What If. So it's non-canon.

Why make that conclusion when they're both 1-0 against Warlock?

Because if you put them against each other to fight, Doom will come away with the win. Spider-Man isn't going to.

-AC

umm.... vader has blocked a turbolaser blast from a ship with his hands.... as well as moved his fleet away from a star about to go nova with the force....

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
There isn't factual evidence for everything but I think, regardless of your like/dislike of Doom, it is safe to assume that the man doesn't stroll around without a repair mechanism. If his suit was crap once damaged, he would have to retreat, this isn't the case. He was already planning to go back for more when Thanos blasted him.

It's an awfully big assumption that his armor repairs itself. It's tough armor and can take some damage, but that doesn't mean it self-repairs. There has to be some precedent for saying that his armor fixes itself. There is none.

Locking up armour and removing it via a "force" are two different things.

Not so much. In both cases you're doing something to Doom's armor beyond his control. I liken the Force to cosmic power in its scope and scale. It doesn't seem to be as versatile...but it certainly seems to be enough to remove some slabs of metal off of a guy. Especially when there is nothing unusual binding the armor to combat such an effect.

So? Point is that he can deflect and disarm a bounty hunter in body armour with a few guns. I'm with you.

Point being that if he can deflect and disarm one of the best combatants and weaponeers in that universe, it's a safe assumption that he can do it to the far less armed Doom.

So then he'll keep shooting, and shooting. With more and more blasts,

Doom would quickly find himself without his gun. And shortly thereafter, without his armor.

he has more powerful blasts than any Star Wars blaster, being that they are standard issue rifles. Vader is good at deflecting but he's no Bishop. Sooner or later he will fall to them.

Doom wouldn't get infinite shots. He'd shoot a couple of times, then Vader would disarm him, then takes it to him.

Boba Fett has VERY powerful weapons - what's Doom's biggest offensive feat with his standard blaster/gauntlet? As far as offensive firepower goes, Doom is on the lower end.

Vader considers himself a Jedi/Sith master. Haven't seen him display any starship manipulating ability. Must not have grasped the whole conceiving malarky.

Dude below addressed that.

Because if you put them against each other to fight, Doom will come away with the win. Spider-Man isn't going to.

Based on what? They're both 1-0 against Adam Warlock. You can't put more weight on one win than another just because you're willing to accept one character's victory than another. I don't think either of them deserved to win against Warlock. But they did...you'd call it shit writing.

Originally posted by demigawd
It's an awfully big assumption that his armor repairs itself. It's tough armor and can take some damage, but that doesn't mean it self-repairs. There has to be some precedent for saying that his armor fixes itself. There is none.

You obviously have different ideas on what an awfully big assumption is. Iron-Man has one, so I'm making the next logical step that someone with a more technologically and scientifcally advanced suit, created by someone smarter, will have one.

Originally posted by demigawd
Not so much. In both cases you're doing something to Doom's armor beyond his control. I liken the Force to cosmic power in its scope and scale. It doesn't seem to be as versatile...but it certainly seems to be enough to remove some slabs of metal off of a guy. Especially when there is nothing unusual binding the armor to combat such an effect.

Yeah but Doom isn't some random yahoo with slabs of metal attached. He's not an old 16th century knight.

Originally posted by demigawd
Point being that if he can deflect and disarm one of the best combatants and weaponeers in that universe, it's a safe assumption that he can do it to the far less armed Doom.

Doom isn't far less armed, he just doesn't use as many guns. I'd say that's an advantage.

Originally posted by demigawd
Doom would quickly find himself without his gun. And shortly thereafter, without his armor.

You say that as if he's a cowboy, at a loss without a pistol. He doesn't need it. If Vader takes it, won't really matter.

Originally posted by demigawd
Doom wouldn't get infinite shots. He'd shoot a couple of times, then Vader would disarm him, then takes it to him.

You obviously operating under the assumption that they're doing pistols at noon.

Originally posted by demigawd
Boba Fett has VERY powerful weapons - what's Doom's biggest offensive feat with his standard blaster/gauntlet? As far as offensive firepower goes, Doom is on the lower end.

His gauntlets have varying power. Either way power isn't an issue. He doesn't need to wipe Vader off the face of the Earth, it doesn't need to be overwhelming, just enough. Which I believe Doom could do.

He deflected the turbolaser blast, took a toll on him if I remember correctly. If he were standing there getting concussion beams blasted at him repeatedly or continually, he's not gonna do some Dragonball Z style and stand there bracing it.

Originally posted by demigawd
Based on what? They're both 1-0 against Adam Warlock. You can't put more weight on one win than another just because you're willing to accept one character's victory than another. I don't think either of them deserved to win against Warlock. But they did...you'd call it shit writing.

I'd also call other things shit writing but when YOU agree with it, it becomes not shit. One of the things I've noticed about you.

It's not about willingness to accept. If the fights never existed and there were two threads Vs Warlock, Doom and Spidey. Spidey would be unanimously for Warlock. Doom's wouldn't. Because he has a better chance of winning.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You obviously have different ideas on what an awfully big assumption is. Iron-Man has one, so I'm making the next logical step that someone with a more technologically and scientifcally advanced suit, created by someone smarter, will have one.

-AC

Are you not assuming Vader can beat Doom?

I think the answer to both our questions is the same. With reasonable (arguably) theory on why.

🙂.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You obviously have different ideas on what an awfully big assumption is. Iron-Man has one, so I'm making the next logical step that someone with a more technologically and scientifcally advanced suit, created by someone smarter, will have one.

The structure of their suits are entirely different. The tech is entirely different. IM is walking tech - that's why he's so big and bulky. Doom is more barebones - he has some basic weaponry and one hell of a shield. That's like assuming that because IM has a proton canon that Doom has one too. The reason we know IM has a self-repairing mechanism is because he's shown it. For all we know, Doom is so confident in his shielding that he wouldn't need to put one in. Either way, you can't just assume that because someone else has a suit of armor with something that Doom has it too. Unless Doom has shown self-repair capabilities, he doesn't have it.

Yeah but Doom isn't some random yahoo with slabs of metal attached. He's not an old 16th century knight.

But metal is still metal. Welding is still welding. When Thing ripped him apart, smashing his gauntlets and ripping the wires out of him, we saw...they're still just metal and wires. They're wired to do incredibly advanced things, but the base elements are exactly the same. Again, there's no reason one arrangement of metal and wires (automated door) could bend to the Force but another (suit of armor) can't. And it's not like Doom force-proofs his armor the way he may proof it against psi attacks....he doesn't even know what The Force is.

Doom isn't far less armed, he just doesn't use as many guns. I'd say that's an advantage.

Well, without his gun, what are some of the weapons he can use against Vader?

You say that as if he's a cowboy, at a loss without a pistol. He doesn't need it. If Vader takes it, won't really matter.

that's step one. Step two is to crush his gauntlets. Step three - start disabling his armor.

His gauntlets have varying power. Either way power isn't an issue. He doesn't need to wipe Vader off the face of the Earth, it doesn't need to be overwhelming, just enough. Which I believe Doom could do.

But if Vader's been able to deflect far more powerful blasts, what's Doom going to do that he can't defect?

He deflected the turbolaser blast, took a toll on him if I remember correctly. If he were standing there getting concussion beams blasted at him repeatedly or continually, he's not gonna do some Dragonball Z style and stand there bracing it.

He not going to just be standing there blocking all day - he has his own offensive capabilities. Doom isn't going have the chance to keep pelting Vader.

I'd also call other things shit writing but when YOU agree with it, it becomes not shit. One of the things I've noticed about you.

This coming from the guy who found nothing wrong with Torch flaming on in space? Pfft. I could say I noticed the exact same thing about you, lol.

It's not about willingness to accept. If the fights never existed and there were two threads Vs Warlock, Doom and Spidey. Spidey would be unanimously for Warlock. Doom's wouldn't. Because he has a better chance of winning.

Well, on THIS Vs. board that would be true. Doom gets an unusual amount of combat respect here. I've been on other boards where people would unianmously vote for Warlock in both fights. It's all subjective - but there's nothing in comic canon that makes Doom more or less likely to repeat against Warlock than Spider-Man.

Ok without reading the 39 other pages...time for me to wager an opinion. Forgive me if any/all of this has been mentioned...I'm in a post-whoring mood today.

Based on abilities:

Jedi Mind Trick will not work on Doom, and Doom's sorcery will probably not work on Vader.

Doom's main offensive power is his gauntlets, but the blasts can easly be deflected by Vader's light-saber. Vader's main offensive powers are of course his expert swordsmanship and telekenesis.

But Doom's armour is too strong for projectiles to harm him, and if the light-saber proves effective against the armour, there's always his personal forcefield. Vader's armour doesn't look that strong in comparison.

Mental powers are a wash...offensive powers are pretty much a wash...but Doom has the defensive advantage, and one of his gauntlet blasts are bound to get through and nail Ani right in his life-support system.

So in the end...Vader is overmatched.

I haven't even touched on Doom's resources and technology, cause I'm being nice...I like Vader...but no Jedi or Sith Lord can ever dream of besting Doom.

But you just said that Doom's main offensive power are his gauntlets, which can be easily deflected by Vader's lightsaber. So if Vader can deflect Doom and Doom's forcefield can deflect Vader, how did you rach the conclusion that "no Jedi or Sith Lord can ever dream of beating Doom"? At best, you're saying it's a draw.

You must have missed the line where I said: "one of his gauntlet blasts are bound to get through". Hell screw it, more than one are bound to get through. Doom's gauntlet blasts are not like regular blasters from Trade Federation droids, which are deflected with regularity. Eventually Doom will be able to overwhelm little Ani.

Oh, and as for the last line...didn't I say that I didn't mention Doom's technological resources? Factor that into the fight, and Vader becomes Jedi poodoo.

if you only knew the power of the dark side....... it's all dark..... and powerful......with things floating and lightning and stuff....... did i mention it was dark.......zzshui...... zwang zwing zwish.......starwars

Doom uses magic. F the Force.

I think this entire argument hinges on where one places the Force as a power. If you're going by the movies, then The Force is just low level psi. But some of the Force feats in the comics are pretty incredible. I have no problem believing that a Vader who can move a fleet of starships out of the way of a nova can easily deflect everything Doom has and then crush his gauntlets and disable his weapons systems entirely. I mean we're talking scale here. "Move starship fleet out of a supernova" vs. "Crush some metal".

But movie version gets owned.