One simple word: Abortion
Abortion is not a 'simple word', it is an agonizing process that can damage a womans psyche for years, even decades. Studies have shown that its not society's view of abortion that makes it so hard on a woman, but rather an innate sense of loss that women go through when having a life ripped from their womb.
Having kids is not a right or a privilege, it is the duty we owe our species. Procreation is the single most important thing to the continuation of homo sapiens. I know it sounds obvious, but you'd be surprised at the number of selfish individuals (mostly homosexuals) out there that think its more important to be successful and secure than it is to make a baby.
Also, its not about being 'ready' to have a baby. Its about having a baby and doing what you have to do to provide for him/her. I would argue that its better to have loving parents who barely make ends meet as than it is to have rich parents who let a nanny raise their child. I wasn't even close to being ready for kids, but when my son was born I damn sure grew up in a hurry.
There will always be bad parents. Theres no way to take a biological function and place rules on it. Some people just aren't fit to be parents, but sadly, that won't stop them from doing it, and in the big picture, at least theyre doing their duty.
No, no no no. It is not a duty. It's that kind of mentality that is to blame for our extreme overpopulation. If anything, fewer people should be having babies, not more. It's not liek there's going to be a shortage of babies. Accidental births alone probably account for at least 1/4 of the total number of births in the world.
It is a right as of now, but it should be a priveledge. That's the only way to cut back on over population and crappy parents.
I do agree on your statement about poor people loving their kids though. I agree love is more important then money, and if you read my posts carefully, you will see that I never said that poor people shouldn't breed at all. I simply said they shouldn't have an outrageous number of children when they can't even support one or two with the bare necessities.
As far as abortion goes, if they don't like it. Tough shit. How about they just don't have sex. I'm sick of hearing about these "victimized" people who act like they just got pregnant at random - "Oops, I'm pregnant, how'd that happen?" It's not a mistake when you get pregnant, when you have sex, with or without protection, you always know that there is a chance, small or large, that a baby will result from your actions. People should not be having sex if they aren't prepared for the results. I do not pity people for their own stupidity.
Yes, there will always be bad parents, but by somehow disallowing just every moron from being able to have kids, it would be possible to at least cut back on the overwhelming number of bad parents that are currently out there. But, ah yes, they're certainly doing their duty by randomly having kids without being ready, if their duty is to contribute to the overpopulation of the world, that is.
Line> As with so many laws, this idea may very easily indeed create a “slide”. You cannot make anything go away by making it illegal, it’ll just become dangerous and/or criminal. That goes for drugs/abortions and so on.
I’m all for EDUCATION. Preferably a society that teaches its populace that not every pregnancy should be carried through (for various reasons), and that it is a great responsibility to take care of a child. That new human beings are not just something we should have because we can.
That’s probably at the core of my musings here. I see couples having kids, and then split up after six months. Single parents are everywhere, and that is NOT, I think, in the best interest of the child.
Lil Bitchiness> As written to Line… I would never be an favour of FORCING anyone to terminate a pregnancy. I’d prefer counselling and help from the state, if the mother/couple insists on having the child – even if it’s obvious they should probably wait.
To me “having a child” has become too much of a point on a check-list of life. “Graduate, check. Marry, check. House, check. Procreate, check.” Even if it’s obvious that we’re not all fit to parent. People who work 24/7 are as unfit as drug-addicts or people with violent traits.
I know the “suggest abortion” won’t go down well with religious fanatics in the US, who yell “Save life, shoot a doctor” (let’s read that again…).
Somehow I think we do agree on the theory of this. It’s making it work in real life that’s an obstacle?
Silver Tears> So, if you agree that not all parents are fit to take care of a child, should they have it in the first place? Taking care of a small new human being is a greater responsibility than just choosing a religion or wear fashion.
Cheechur> Having gone through a totally willing abortion at age 19 I can personally tell you that it does not always damage a woman. Especially not if she does not WANT to have a child at that age.
Duty? Now THAT sounds like Nazi-rhetorics to me all right. The single most important thing?
No! Taking care of the humans that already LIVE on this planet is far more important than squeezing out even more – especially in our energy-over-consuming part of the world.
And homosexuals CANNOT have children. And for now the state bars them adopting any, so your badly disguised homophobia is not doing anything here, but making you sound like you ate a bible and some other fundamentalist crap.
It is INDEED about being ready TO do the best for the baby. Not just HAVING it, and tossing away YOUR OWN life.
It is – like BF says – a privilege. But that should not depend only on money or status. But on whether or not the couple is READY to take on the responsibility.
Jeez, you guys crack me up with your over the top emotional responses. You need to learn to look at the world from outside of your own isolated views sometimes.
"Duty? Now THAT sounds like Nazi-rhetorics to me all right. The single most important thing?"
Nazi-rhetorics my a$$. It is the biological duty of ANY species to procreate, thus keeping their species going for another generation.
"No! Taking care of the humans that already LIVE on this planet is far more important than squeezing out even more – especially in our energy-over-consuming part of the world."
This short-sightedness is a good example of why procreation is so important. Too many people concentrate on the here and now and forget that life goes on after you and your generation is long gone. Its completely obvious that each generation needs to take care of itself. Thats not an argument against my post, thats common sense. We take care of our current population so that we can safely raise the next one.
"And homosexuals CANNOT have children. And for now the state bars them adopting any, so your badly disguised homophobia is not doing anything here, but making you sound like you ate a bible and some other fundamentalist crap."
I have no time for that kind of extremist, left of reality crap. For you to assume I am a homophobe because I said one (arguably) negative thing about gays is thoughtless and rude. Should I call you a biblephobe? I could care less about gays, they don't do anything to propigate the species so I feel they have no right to join the discussion. I think they are irresponsible as human beings, but I certainly don't hate them.
Everything we do, from putting on make-up to working out to staying healthy to wearing deoderant to making money to buying fast cars...its all in the hopes of procreating. This is all on an instinctual level, and if you don't belive me, watch Discovery Channel, PBS, or just read a friggin book.
Creechur> It is not the duty of humans to procreate. Because we can choose not to. Or are you so eager to over-populate the planet as fast as possible?
Answer that IF you can.
If your or I don’t have ANY children will the human species become extinct?
“This short-sightedness is a good example of why procreation is so important.” Actually, it is the other way around. The short-sighted ”Let’s have 10 children each” will bring us to overpopulation in NO time. You seem to forget that there has to be ressources, air, food and drinking water FOR our children, AND theirs. And
”We take care of our current population so that we can safely raise the next one.” Ehrm? Climate changes? Famine? Starvation? AIDS? Wars? Land-mines? Tax-barriers? We’re not really taking care of the children who are already here…
” I have no time for that kind of extremist, left of reality crap.”
You crack me up with your over the top emotional responses. You need to learn to look at the world from outside of your own isolated views sometimes. Saying that homosexuals are selfish because they cannot have children is not thoughtless and rude?
Hm!
” Everything we do, from putting on make-up to working out to staying healthy to wearing deoderant to making money to buying fast cars...its all in the hopes of procreating.”
No, it’s in the hope of having sex. BIIIIG difference there. You need to learn to look at the world from outside of your own isolated views sometimes.
Omega:
I agree, which is why I'm not too fond of the idea of the baby-licens touched upon earlier. And, just for the record, I'm not against abortion, actually very very happy that we in this country have that option. If anything, I've been wondering wether abortion shouldn't be made a right ...
I follow you on the education. At least when it comes to how to take care of a child, what's expected from you, etc. I don't know if you've heard of a project carried out a place around here, where nurses visits parents with babies till the child's around three (I think), helping them choosing the right food (which is discussed in the obesity-thread), how to teach the child limits, etc. A nurse was interviewed and told that exactly what good parenting is has been discussed so much, and too many different answers have been given, be firm the other day, then suddenly you're told to just let the child have it's way, etc. Parents now a days are simply too confused for the better good of the child. This project's been running for some years now, and already there's a lot less obese children in this area, as well as less children with problems in school, children, who can't concentrate and are being dificult.
Still, I't not sure I'd like the idea of being taught that sometimes an abortion'd be the right way. That's something the involved needs to find out for themselves. Feeling a pressure from society, as small as it may be, to carry out an abortion, can't be nice.
Well, I was done with this, but you dared me, so here I go:
I can 'choose' not to take care of my kids, that doesn't mean its not my duty.
The 'planet' is not overpopulated. Urban centers are overpopulated. Who wants to live in the country when you can live in Fancy New York City? There is a lot of empty space on this planet.
Why do you keep bringing up the 'having 10 kids' thing? I never once even hinted that a person should be that irresponsible. Basically nature dictates how many children you should have. Cats have litters of multiple kittens because their lifespan is short and their chance of survival is quite low. Insects have hundreds, sometimes thousands of offspring, since they get killed left and right. Humans, on the other hand, rarely have more than one baby at a time. Back in the day, when standards of living were lower, people needed to have more babies since you never knew how many would die of some plague or wild animal attack or whatever. Nowadays I don't think people really need to have more than one or two kids, and I agree that having more is irresponsible. That doesn't change the fact that it is our biological duty.
You can say what you want about the current world situation, for every bad point you bring up, I can bring up two positive ones. I choose to be optimistic, and try to give my kids the best possible environment for them to thrive in, so that they might...wait for it...grow up and be mature enough to be decent parents.
Saying that gays are irresposible for not procreating may very well be rude to those programmed by today's PC society, but it is my opinion, so live with it. I will not be bullied into an opinion based on how many people I might insult. If you have a problem with that I suggest you grow some mental callouses.
I think kids are irresponsible and selfish too, and I love kids.
Finally, each time you have sex (even safe sex) you are practicing for the big moment when that action results in a baby. Therefore, when you are looking for sex, you are looking to procreate. Its instinctual, programmed into our genes. Everything you do that has to do with staying healthy, looking good, and attracting the opposite sex are all so you can make a baby, you obviously just don't know it. Like I said, do some research, my opinons are based on psychlogical and biological theories that have been around for years.
Omega, do you even have kids?
Line> But the need for nurses TO go around an visit parents, and tell them about nutrition and up-bringing shows that there IS a problem. ow come we've lost the ability to just have a child, feed it and bring it up to be a decent human being?
Too much going on? Career-wise? Too much contradictory information on how to raise a child?
I think that teaching teen-agers that sometimes an abortion is a good choice is perfectly okay. Antropologits have shown that we humans have resorted to infanticide and abortions since the dawn of time - if it was necessary. Just because we have enough to eat, doesn't mean we are READY to are for another human being. I understand what you mean by "that's something the involved needs to find out for themselves", but who's to tell them about it?
And is it not better there is a sight pressure to WAIT having children, than a pressure to procreate no matter what?
Cheechur> Oh, please. READ what I write, will you? I said it's not a duty for humans to have children, as we can choose not to.
The planet IS overpopulated. You seem completely ignorant as to what the word means. It's not just about space. It's about having enough ressources. If everyone on this planet were to achieve my standard of living, well... good-bye Earth.
Why are you comparing humans with cats? Cats do not have a sense of self anywhere NEAR that you find in humans. Cats can not plan, nor do they know of contraception... A woman can get pregnant a coule of months after giving birth. A woman can get pregnant around the age of 13-15 and until around 50. Now COUNT the number of kids nature - according to YOU - dictates that humans should have.
And it is NOT a fact that procreating is a duty. There is nothing NATURAL about humanity anymore... Or did your comp grow on a tree?
"You can say what you want about the current world situation, for every bad point you bring up, I can bring up two positive ones." Well, and they are... ?
"Saying that gays are irresposible for not procreating may very well be rude to those programmed by today's PC society," No, it is just rude. Gay people CANNOT have children so it's an old-fashioned and easy way of pointing fingers. It's like accusing bald people of bringing down the shampoo-business.
What about men-women couples who cannot have children either for various reasons. Are they selfish, too?
You are - of course - entitled to your fundamentalist and conservative opinions all you want. But guess what? You don't have monopoly on the truth, and if you feel bullied because I reply - then you're the one being overtly emotional. Not I. And I suggest you grow some mental callouses.
Or rather - practice what you preach, will ya?
So, I assume by your extremly selfish positions that you do not have kids.
You want people to tell you how to raise kids. You want the choice to end a life because it will inconvenience you.
"Cheechur> Oh, please. READ what I write, will you? I said it's not a duty for humans to have children, as we can choose not to."
I do read your posts, and I spell YOUR name right. You reiterated your point, you already said that in your last post, and I told you why I think youre wrong.
We have more than enough resources for everyone, we've just forgotten how to share like good boys and girls. While we are currently coming to a point where we will have to look to other means of energy and resources, we just have to figure it out and move on.
If everyone on this planet were to acheive MY standard of living, we'd all be just fine. Again, your staements paint you as a short-sighted and selfish individual. No way do you have kids.
I compared humans to other species as an example of why I agree with you that having too many kids is a bad thing. Youre so full of negativity and your own opinions you even argue with me when I agree with you!
I'm optimistic and happy with my lot in life. I can cite good things about my life and life in general all day long. I'm truly sorry that you can't do the same.
We'll just agree to disagree about gays and their position within our species. Its not really off-topic, but its a non-issue to me. Everyone seems too caught up in the politics of gayness to say anything but what the media has forced down their throats.
Baldness certainly can't be good for the shampoo industry.
and Mamma jumps into the fray........I have worked with the school system for the last 10 years now. I have seen women who have no job or husbands have babies and KEEP ON HAVING babies just so they can stay on welfare. And let me tell you this..that THOSE mothers have NO BUSINESS being mothers. A cat is a better mother to its children. I am must admit I've seen children who have been badly abused. One little boy's mother locked him in a trunk a few times a week when he pissed her off. I have seen little kids badly beaten by both their fathers and mothers. People like that should A. Have their children taken away from them and B. be sterilized! Maybe that sounds harsh but it's become a harsh world. If you do any research you will find that the majority of serial killers and rapists etc have had virtual no home life. They've been abused to the point of inhumanness. Social services is no help in my opinion because 70% of the time they return the child to the parent or put the kid in foster care which doesnt amount to crap in this country anyway. It's human nature to procreate but not everyone should. That's just my opinion.....I could be wrong. 😎
Mamma
Gays are irresponsible.......😂 What an irrelevant statement. No discussing homosexuals in this thread please. There is no reason to bring such irresponsible and irrelevant statements about gay people into a thread about having kids.
Selfishness is part of humanity, it is a humans instinctual concern to stay alive, and live as comfortably as possible. Everyone is selfish, like it or not. In fact, the majority of people who have kids do it for selfish reasons.
And overpopulation is indeed a concern. By the year 2040, there will be nearly 10 billion people on this earth, and in another 40 years, probably 15 billion and so on. All because people are "doing their duty" a little too well. The only way to ensure that the next generation of people won't all be starving is to cut back on the amount of unnecessary children people irresponsibly have.
Originally posted by Creechuur
We'll just agree to disagree about gays and their position within our species.
And what species are they exactly 🤨 What a rediculous statement. How can anyone take anything you say seriously after such statements.
Sorry BF.
Overpopulation IS an issue indeed. There are more people alive today then there ever were before, but the thing is, the overpopulation usualy happens in developing countries, and poor countried.
Then again, look at China, 1/6 of all worlds population lives in China alone. 😖
"And homosexuals CANNOT have children.how hard do you think it is for a lesbian pair to get pregnant? If they want a kid bad enough one of them will get one. Now for the male gays it is a different story but with enough cash there are enough women who gladly be a surrogate mother/ bearer for male gay couples as well.
You need to learn to look at the world from outside of your own isolated views sometimes.
That doesn't change the fact that it is our biological duty.our biological duty is to look after our own so that it is your own blood/kin that survives. That, like in the animal kingdom, is the biological duty. Toward your own, not the entire species
Originally posted by The Omega
Line> But the need for nurses TO go around an visit parents, and tell them about nutrition and up-bringing shows that there IS a problem. ow come we've lost the ability to just have a child, feed it and bring it up to be a decent human being?
Too much going on? Career-wise? Too much contradictory information on how to raise a child?
I think that teaching teen-agers that sometimes an abortion is a good choice is perfectly okay. Antropologits have shown that we humans have resorted to infanticide and abortions since the dawn of time - if it was necessary. Just because we have enough to eat, doesn't mean we are READY to are for another human being. I understand what you mean by "that's something the involved needs to find out for themselves", but who's to tell them about it?
And is it not better there is a sight pressure to WAIT having children, than a pressure to procreate no matter what?
True. But it also shows that an awareness of this problem is kicking in, and that the right help can do the trick, so yes, I agree with you when it comes to educating people in childcare.
Still don't like the idea of being taught about when or when not it might be a good idea to have an abortion though. I don't think there should be such a pressure, as well as I don't think there should be a pressure to procreate ( though lately I've noticed that scary-articles about how bad it goes, when women wait too long to have children, and how bad it is for them to choose carrier instead of children (theese seriously makes my blood boil, if there's such a saying)) keeps popping up - no mentioning on the men of course. Having a child is a personal matter. So is having an abortion. Society shouldn't interfere. If the couple needs help and advice, they should be able to get it from professionals who are nonetheless neutral, as well as from family/friends.
"The only way to ensure that the next generation of people won't all be starving is to cut back on the amount of unnecessary children people irresponsibly have."
I definitely agree with that. Having too many kids is bad, and it doesn't contradict my main point. Everyone should have kids...just know when to say when.
"And what species are they exactly"
Notice that I said "our species". The HUMAN species. Sheesh. You are usually more intelligent lil, that was just bad reading comprehension.
Overpopulation is a good argument to limiting how many children a couple has, but it is by no means an argument for not having children at all.
Sorry Finti, but I believe that a man and a woman are best suited to raise children. Same sex couples cannot give a child what he/she needs, IMO. Gender roles are very important to shaping identity and an individuals place within society. I was raised by a single mom, and I think I missed out on a lot not having a male role model in my early life.
Guys, these are not my 'isolated views'. I have done a lot of research on these subjects, and based my beliefs upon that research. Obviously some of what I said is purely opinion, but the bedrock of my stance is based on accepted bilogical theories. I don't see that basis in a lot of posts in this thread. Rather I see a lot of emotional response. Theres nothing wrong with that, but it puts us on different pages.
But that's just it, not everyone should have kids. Only people who are willing to take up the massive amounts of responsibility that come with the territory.
I never claimed that there should be no children at all, if that's what you thought I, or The Omega said, then that is bad reading comprehension on YOUR part. I simply think only people who want kids should have them, saying "everyone should have kids" implies that people, even those who don't want kids, should have them because that's your belief, that my friend, is selfishness at it's best.
Originally posted by Creechuur
Notice that I said "our species". The HUMAN species. Sheesh. You are usually more intelligent lil, that was just bad reading comprehension.
Dont insult or question my intelligence.
Re-read what you wrote:
''We'll just agree to disagree about gays and their position within our species.''
How does that sound...if you said ''within our socety'' that would be complitely different.
Homosexuality isnt even an issue.
No, everyone should not have children, but i dont think there is a way to stop people from having children.
Some people dont see children as a blessing or something pressious, unfortuatly.
I keep readng about these psychos who kill their children, beat them to death or throw them arround, its so shamefull, but i dont think there is a way of stopping people from having children.
Labeling might be the way out, or it might not. Many people who turn to crime later on in life, or abuse their children were abused themselfs.