Is having children a right?

originally pposted by The Omega
Finti> So, lesbian women just go out and have sex with a strange man?? While I agree it is a possibility, don't you think it a it akward to say it is "Just like that"? And what about gay men?

Now for the male gays it is a different story but with enough cash there are enough women who gladly be a surrogate mother/ bearer for male gay couples as well

If gay male couples want kids they need to pay big sums for it, at least at present time they do

Originally posted by The Omega

Line> Well, then we probably disagree on educating people to maybe have an abortion, when the couple in question is in no way ready to care for a new human being. I would rather young people, without money, job and a place in life WAIT.
"Having a child is a personal matter."
Ah, but that is not exactly true. Especially not if social services need to remove the child from un-fit parents, when society has to provide day-care and kindergardens and schools.

Me too. But I don't like the idea of them being told that by a teacher.
True. But the decision wether to have an abortion or not IS a very personal one and has a lot to do with personal beliefs, etc. There's probably, in most cases, a lot of bad conscience involved already. This shouldn't be increased by a "I'm not exactly making society happy by having this baby, so I'd better ..."-feeling.

abortion shouldnt be used as a birth control

No.

Omega , I am absolutely speechless. The way you pick and choose what to argue is confounding. I don't even think youre reading entire posts, you seem to be just taking what you don't like and attempting to shoot it down. Your arguments are idealistic at best, and for the most part have no place in reality. I'm done even trying to point out the flaws in your logic...I mean emotional responces. I've tried to explain that there is a lot of proof that what I say is generally accepted by the scientific community, but you just keep coming back trying to make it sound as if I made it all up. We're going in circles. While most of this threads participants have accepted that we all have opinions on the matter, youre still trying to be insulting with the bible and homophobe crap. That was so yesterday.

The simple facts that you think there is some kind of guidebook to being a parent, that you want outside help and seem to not want to take on any of the burdens of parenting yourself, and that you have an emotionless lighthearted view of abortion tells me that we are on opposite sides of the moral compass. Feel free to insult and belittle me, I can't respond to you anymore or my freakin head will explode.

To those of you who let me have my opinion even though you might not agree with it and thoughtfully debated instead of lashing out, thanks.

Finti> I still think it would be akward. Imagine a straight couple who can’t have kids because the man is sterile, and we say to the woman ”well, just go find a friend.” And for lesbian women… they ARE homosexuals. I think you’re making it wayyy to easy.
BUT – you are right that the possibility DOES exist for lesbians.
I read your post – but you didn’t say what the gay men should do. “Big sums”? You mean adoptions? Illegal adoptions?
No. Abortion shouldn’t be birth-control. That’s not my point AT all. But sometimes accidents happens even with all kinds of contraception.

Line> Hmmm. I think that maybe we agree on the idea. Am I right in assuming that you’re uncomfortable by the idea, that a psychologists suggest to a teen-age pregnant girls that she should get an abortion, if the psychologist thinks she’s unfit to care for the child? That it is the suggestion that makes you uneasy? If “yes, why?
I’m not talking about pressure. But counselling. Of course – preferably the education should’ve taught the teen-agers to use contraception. But isn’t it better that the young girl has an abortion, get her education and find her place in life, before she becomes a mother?
I see what you mean, but trust me. If you’re not ready to HAVE the child, there is no bad conscience involved. I’m speaking from personal experiences here. I simply decided I was not ready to have a child at the time…
No one should tell the girl in question that she or her child is a burden to society. Not at all. I’m at the… “I can see that I am not ready, and that I’m sacrificing my OWN life, if I have a child now.” See the difference?

Cheechur> Are you finished feeling sorry for yourself? I read your posts all right, and I reply. If you don’t like what I write, then deal with that.

“Your arguments are idealistic at best, and for the most part have no place in reality.”
😆 Oh, so now I’m the unrealistic one. I, who says that the Earth cannot, with the way ressources are distributed, handle many more people. Wake up, will you?

”I'm done even trying to point out the flaws in your logic.” Well, if you can’t, you can’t. Your own logic is – to say the least – lacking. Such as the one I just mentioned, that we should just – as is our duty in your view – keep having kids, even if the world is going towards overpopulation.
And would you mind telling me what ”blood-lines” you’re referring to?

”I've tried to explain that there is a lot of proof that what I say is generally accepted by the scientific community, but you just keep coming back trying to make it sound as if I made it all up.” Well, you’re still not providing any links to the ”scientific community” which agrees with you. Do you know that that kind of logic fallacy even has its own name?

And YOU were the one who brought the homosexuals into this debate in the first place, in a – frankly – less than flattering manner. And – please, don’t speak on behalf of the rest of the forumites here. That fallacy has a name, too.

So, where do I write that there is a guidebook to being a parent? Nowhere. And you do not think accusing me of being emotionless is insulting? Yes, I’d rather terminate a pregnancy that is more than likely to ruin the lives of the parents AND the child, that sing “every sperm is sacred” and dance Monty Python style down the streets. There are millions of children in the world that needs to be cared for as it is, and I think we should use our resources to help them, instead of selfishly claim our RIGHT to keep bringing kids into the world. Very emotionless indeed.

Originally posted by The Omega

Line> Hmmm. I think that maybe we agree on the idea. Am I right in assuming that you’re uncomfortable by the idea, that a psychologists suggest to a teen-age pregnant girls that she should get an abortion, if the psychologist thinks she’s unfit to care for the child? That it is the suggestion that makes you uneasy? If “yes, why?
I’m not talking about pressure. But counselling. Of course – preferably the education should’ve taught the teen-agers to use contraception. But isn’t it better that the young girl has an abortion, get her education and find her place in life, before she becomes a mother?
I see what you mean, but trust me. If you’re not ready to HAVE the child, there is no bad conscience involved. I’m speaking from personal experiences here. I simply decided I was not ready to have a child at the time…
No one should tell the girl in question that she or her child is a burden to society. Not at all. I’m at the… “I can see that I am not ready, and that I’m sacrificing my OWN life, if I have a child now.” See the difference?

No. If the girl goes to the psychologist for counceling, the psychologist is of course obliged to give her her/his oppinion. I'm not against the counceling, on the contrary, so yes, we probably agree on most of this. Still, I do feel that the counceling should be given by a neutral person, who does not directly tell the girl what she/he feels she should do, unless of course the girl asks that specific person's opinion.
What I feel uneasy about is wether it should be taught in school for example. Wether a girl should have an abortion or not should be discussed with her as an individual, not a pupil among many others.
Yes, I often do think that an abortion would be the best solution if the girl's very young. But we're all different, some may be capable of bringing up the child, others may not. It depends on maturity, personality, support, economical situation, etc.
I've got friends who've been through abortions too. They were also convinced that it was the best solution, but still felt bad about it. I guess that depends on the individual woman.
Yes, I see what you mean. But some may be of a different opinion, and I think they should be allowed to keep that.

Damn. I've got Monthy Python on repeat in my mind now ...

The whole 'ready to have a child' thing is such a joke. Its the mantra of the young and selfish, I know because I once held that view. Although everyone is entitled to an opinion, if youre not a parent your opinion on having kids is delusional at best, and should be taken with a grain of salt.

Like I said, you have a kid and you grow up real fast or you set that childs life up for disaster. All the counseling in the world will not make a person a fit parent. The only way I could even loosely define 'being ready' is making a deliberate choice to sacrifice your freedom for that child, which apparently many of you are not willing to make. Believe me, when you see that head pop out of your loved one's vagina, it changes you. I was a selfish immature bastard on June 11th, 1999. On June 12th at 9:58 pm, I grew up.

My son was a preemie, and his lungs were not fully developed when he was born. For the first three weeks of his life I had to visit my boy in the Intensive Care Unit, wondering if he would live through the day. I had to be careful when I held him and fed him, because of the plethora of wires and sensors trailing from his tiny little frail body. I had never been so scared in my life. I had also never realized I could be so entirely selfless, that I would have given up my life to make sure he survived. Luckily that wasn't necassary. He will be five on Saturday, and I'm crying as I type this, the memories are so vivid.

My girlfriend (who will soon be second and final wife) is the mother of three kids. She had her first when she was a very immature 18 years old. Some of you would say that she was not ready for parenthood...that she should have aborted, right?

Wrong.

She rose to the cause and gave up her youth for those kids. Some of you are probably scoffing right now, saying "what a sucker she was, I would never be that stupid". For her though, the rewards have been vastly greater than the effort and sacrifice she made. She is without a doubt the best mom I have ever met, and her kids love her like no other. Their relationship is the stuff TV shows are made of. I honestly didn't think a family could be so tightly knit in this day and age until I met them. And this is someone many of you would have written off as 'not ready'.

I don't know of any parents who were 'ready' to have a child. You can plan all you want, but parenting is the most chaotic thing I have ever experienced.

Before any of you make any further posts, I think it would be relevant to first say whether or not you are a parent. To me, it means the difference between taking you seriously or making you part of the peanut gallery.

"My girlfriend (who will soon be second and final wife) is the mother of three kids. She had her first when she was a very immature 18 years old. Some of you would say that she was not ready for parenthood...that she should have aborted, right?

Wrong.

She rose to the cause and gave up her youth for those kids."

That's all well and good, but a lot of people wouldn't have done that. They would have seen the child as a burden and treated it as such. They would have treated it badly, possibly abused it, and maybe blame it for the sacrafices they now have to make. It's great that your wife was able to handle it so well, but you have to remember, not everyone is your wife.

And when I say "I'm not having kids till I'm ready" I mean this: When I have a steady, well paying job. When I have a good, solid foundation in a relationship, and I can rest assured that I'm with the person I want to spend the rest of my life with. And when I feel I'm mature enough to handle a living being depending entirely on me to survive; that is when I feel I will be ready for children. That may sound like nonsense to you, but I think you'll agree that someone who meets all the above criteria is more prepared to have a child then some 17 year old kid who got drunk at a party and knocked up one of the high school cheerleaders.

It's naive to think that everyone is going to instantly mature when they have kids. That simply isn't the case. And you should not have kids untill you are prepared for the sacrafices and drastic changes that will come with the territory. You may not be able to completely predict what exactly happens when you have kids before you actually do, but people have at least a vague idea, and I think someone who is planning and mentally prepared to have kids is definately more "ready" then someone who is not.

I read your post – but you didn’t say what the gay men should do. “Big sums”? You mean adoptions? Illegal adoptions?

Now for the male gays it is a different story but with enough cash there are enough women who gladly be a surrogate mother/ bearer for male gay couples as well

"It's naive to think that everyone is going to instantly mature when they have kids."

Well I guess that makes me one naive, instantly matured motherfu(ker. *pats self on the back*

"It's great that your wife was able to handle it so well, but you have to remember, not everyone is your wife."

Your damn right. Not many people have my girls strength of character and unfailing sense of DUTY. I'm a lucky man. She brought up a good point when I told her about this thread. She feels that if God (or Nature, or The Great Spirit or whatever) didn't intend for us all to have kids, we wouldnt all be born with reproductive organs. Its a little spiritual for my tastes, but it does ring true to me. Nevermind that though, I give up on trying to prove that point to y'all anymore.

Reagarding my last post though...Man, you missed the point sooo bad. The point flew past you as you stood there with your oft-repeated negativity. If you turn around you might still be able to get it, but youre probably too busy grousing about something. My own fault for trying to warm some hearts in this frigid thread.

I WASNT READY TO HAVE KIDS.

Amazingly enough, I'm a pretty damn good dad, judging by the way my boy's eyes light up when I enter the room. When I look at my son, when I laugh and play and learn with him, even when he wiped poop all over the walls during potty training, I think, "what sacrifice?" There is no greater reward than the love of your child.

Life is chaos. Financial stability, relationships, health are all fleeting. They can crumble in an instant. You keep waiting until youre ready...I just hope youre sperm hasn't turned to dust by the time you make your decision. I'm not being sarcastic, I really hope you can experience parenthood someday, its a trip.

Backfire, I'm not tryin to harsh on you. Unlike Trinit...I mean Omega, you have not stooped to personal insults to prove your point or shoot mine down, and I appreciate that. It just sucks to see so many people so down and frightened of having kids. Just be good, its not as hard as it sounds, I promise. All the bad parents out there you guys keep talking about...its not simply that they werent ready to have kids. Theyre BAD PEOPLE. Only an evil hearted or sick person would abuse a child. Dont be so scared of failing, look forward to succeeding. I'm not saying it doesn't take effort, but its really not as hard as some people make it out to be.

All biology and theories aside, having kids is not a right, privelige or duty. Its not a burden or an impossible load to bear. Its an honor.

I'm pretty much convinced that I am the only parent posting in this thread (except SpadesMamma, but I havent seen her post here in a bit). Therefore, I now get to lecture all of you incessantly. Just another perk to being a parent!!! 😄

I'm pretty much convinced that I am the only parent posting in this thread

I am a parent

Line> But what IS neutral councelling? If a psychologist an readily tell, that a young boy and girl would be better off if they didn't have the child, should he/she not say so? If he/she can feel that the girl really wans to have the baby at age 17 no one can stop her. But what is she gonna do with her life? What career will she have? A great scientist may get lost there.
Sure, some people be able to handle kids AND education. But you need people made out of a special material.
Of course youngsters should be taught about abortions in school - just as contraception. There is no stopping hormones, no stopping inctincts... The kids need to know what to do to avoid getting pregnant and what to do if an accident happens.
"It depends on maturity, personality, support, economical situation, etc."
I agree 100 % with you here.
Perhaps what I really want is that we're taught from we're young, that we need to plan for kids. That having a child is a great responsibility.

"The whole 'ready to have a child' thing is such a joke." With the abused kids in the world a joke, indeed...
"Its the mantra of the young and selfish," So YOU know better now? It's extremely arrogant to accuse your opponents of childisness and selfishness, just because they do not share your views. But everyone is NOT entitled to heir opinions, right?

"All the counseling in the world will not make a person a fit parent." No, may it may prevent a disaster, if the consellors prevent unfit parents from having a child. Some people do NOT grow up real fast when they have kids.

So, now you're a dad. Congratulations. But your very optimistic views on yourselves may be what you're trying to tell yourself. You've been repeating it as a mantra by now.

"My girlfriend (who will soon be second and final wife) is the mother of three kids." Well, so good thing you didn't have any kids with your first wife, right? But what if you had?

I'm not saying you can mentally prepare for a child. No one knows what it is like, until the child is actually there. But some people are just not FIT to parent. They may become that later in life, it may never happen. And for the sake of the child, I'd rather it grew up happily, in safe surroundings, than it is beaten and mistreated because its parents cannot handle it.

So, you think that because YOU have kids, it makes you an expert on whether or not all people are fit to parent. I'm sorry, but YOU are not everyone on the planet. You say you rose to the occasion. Well, for your kids sake I hope that you did. And good for you that you were in social/financial circumstances to continue and education and move on with your career. What does your soon-to-be-second-wife do for a living?
We are NOT discussing being scared of having kids. We're not discussing YOUR kids either, but why do you feel so threatened by a discussion on whether or not everyone is fit to parent? Which - just to remind you - is the actual topic here.

I am the foster of a child in India. A 9-year old girl in a poor and underdeveloped area. I pay for her education and support developments in her community. I can see how someone like you would call that VERY selfish... (nods slowly).

And .. for the third time: You want some bloodlines eliminated. I'm still waiting to find out what blood-lines you're talking about. It seems like you're just choosing some specific things in my posts to reply to and not reading the whole thing.

I want to stand up and cheer for Creechur. I'm absolutely stunned.

You have all battered him down for having experience and opinions, and I find that sickening.

Well done man, you stood strong when waves of pessimism and thoughtlessness washed over you.

And for the record, I just read the entire thread, and I, for once, have nothing to say on the actual matter. It's been discussed to a point where I don't think anything more can really be said without severe repetition.

You have all battered him down for having experience and opinions

And for the record, I just read the entire thread

Edited.

Sorry, maybe not all, I was generalising, apologies.

But surely you must see my point? Creechur gave full, detailed opinions, based on his knowledge and experiences so far. Obviously, not everyone is going to agree with his opinions, but that's the point. Opinions are an individual's point of view. Therefore they cannot be seen as right or wrong, so the petty arguing that ensued was futile.

And I did get a grasp on the thread, which is why I felt it unnecessary to give my view. Most of what I believe has already been stated, mainly by Creechur and Omega. Ironic really.....

Lady van Tramp> So how does one man becoming a father make him an expert on whether or not all people on the planet are fit to be parents? And whether or not having kids should be a right?

The sad fact of the matter is that we can debate this issue to death and things will not change, people who shouldnt be having children will continue to have children, abortions will always continue, gays will be gay, homophobes will always be that way, the conservatives and the liberals will always disagree and theres not a damn thing any of us can do except learn to get along in this world and do the best we can. 😉
mamma