Originally posted by Psyquis52This is how people do where I'm from. It's worse than Iraq. Rapper Joey Jihad gets melted 😆 Not really, but it's still crazy out here.
If I here one person talk about how relative urban life is to modern warfare I swear I'll drop them in Iraq quicker than you can say Pneumonoultramicroscopicsillicovolcanoniosis.
Originally posted by CaptainStoic
If he has to rely on his weapons to defeat Captain America, wouldn't that mean that he didn't have the right stuff to beat him without them?Even with his gadgets, it remains inconclussive as to whether or not he could win against Captain America with the shield. Knockout gas, and tranq. darts would be a hollow victory, if Batman resorted to such a method to win, he'd look like a coward in my eyes.
Captain America has all of the tools to beat Batman physically. There has never been a comic written, that made Captain America out to be the dunce that people in this forum are attempting to exploit.
Combat wise Captain America has the edge when it comes to experience, he is much older than Batman, and has been in far more life and death wartime battles, Batman is an urban hero, Captain America is a war hero.
In the Avenger/JLA crossover Batman seemed pretty surprised as to how prepared Captain America was when they were in his Bat cave, which led me to believe that Batman, wouldn't have come to any conclussions on how to deal with major threats than Captain America.
Captain America has far better endurance, it is highly unlikely that Batman, would be able to knock him out in the first 30 minutes of a confrontation with him under optimal conditions (well rested), what would seem more likely is the fight would drag on long enough to show how much more endurance, agility, and strength Captain America has over Batman (which is why he has the edge). Captain America would inevitably see Batman becomming sluggish, as lactic acid begins to set into Batmans muscles, and knock him out. Any fighter knows that when your arms, and legs go out your finished.
Batman stated that it was conceivable that Captain America would/could defeat him, given time. Busiek himself agreed that Batman is outclassed when it comes to Captain America.
Batman should never be able to defeat Captain America without relying on cheap parlor tricks. After all they are comparatively equal in terms of fighting ability, but that is all. Making an argument about the Super Soldier Serum is a pointless route to travel, because at one point when Ron Lim sketched for the book, he no longer had it in his blood stream, this did not effect his performance in dealing with Bulleye, or Crossbones. All the same you can't just take away his powers to suit your debate on the outcome of this fight. Take away the Gamma Rays from Hulk, and all you have left is Banner. Put Superman under a red sun, and all you have is a man.
Damn good post and I agree. Batman without his gadgets is not a match for Captain America. Cap is too much for him to handle. Fortunately for Batman he doesn't always play fair so he will use his gadgets to even the odds. I'm sorry if this makes you look at Batman as a coward but thats what he does. He exploits. If he can't beat you in a regular matchup he'll use whatever he has to even the odds. Going against Killer Croc, use hyer sonics. Going against Superman, use kryponite. Going against Zeiss, use Batgirl. Going against Cap, pull whatever gadgets you have out of your netherregions.
Originally posted by brainchild81
Good posts. Batman using gadgets against Cap isn't cowardly IMO. It's smart. Otherwise he'd just get a beatdown and what would that accomplish?
What would it accomplish? It just means that Batman would lose if they fought wearing nothing, but sweat pants, and a tee.
Like I said, I agree with you stoic. But point is separating Batman from his gadgets taking away what makes Batman Batman. He's just a regular guy with no powers who utilizes his brain to become a hero. For me I see the gadgets are more of an equalizer since Batman doesn't have an indestructible shield or SSS. Sure Batman may be quite the athlete no amount of training is gonna put him to Steve's level or help him match Steve's inexhaustible endurance. He's already at an automatic disadvantage, don't you think I'd be a little unfair if he couldn't use his gads?
Originally posted by badabing
Lately Bats has been endowed with some powers, like he's using a form of chi.
Batman is a master of Haragei, a master who has expanded his physical senses over this plane of existence to another and thus becoming hyper aware of his surroundings without appearing to really being anything different from others. He is keenly aware of everything going on around him and also the microscopic and the astral world around himself. Furthermore he can feel that world around himself and thus being one of the most difficult targets for telepathy and also telepathic obfuscation. Along these lines the Bat has learnt and masters both the Sakki and Kiai. Kiai is the ability to feel the intent and thus be able to act accordingly. However Sakki is the force of the intention and with these three pillars the Bat can take the physical battle to another level, to the psychological, the mental plane. The Sakki and Kiai, completed with the mastery of Haragei can be used as physical weapons, a force of wills where every blow is even stronger than the physical ones. As a ninja and a master of haragei, Batman has learnt to cope without his sensory input, making him able to fight and function without any sort of handicap should he lose his sight or hearing, or other senses. The fact is that the Bat is far beyond the human senses and even though they are handy, they're not needed.
Chi is another facet and a tactic the Batman uses, much like Sakki, it can be projected through the combat. Batman has been shown, on numerous occasions, to be able to perform feats impossible to humans. He has been shown to kick down trees, punch through concrete and mortar walls. He has been shown to be able to lift up a stone totem that weighed over a ton. He can project his Chi out of his body and aid him physically, because of this it is no big feat for him to punch through living trees and walls. By focusing his Chi inside his body he can ignore the physical damage and pain he receives. Through his training, Batman has trained himself to ignore exhaustion, sleep deprivation, emotions and also pain and agony. To anyone looking at the Bat, there is nothing remotely human about him other than the chin. As a Bat, when under control, he feels no emotions, no fear, no love, he is completely indifferent to the world around himself and thus he is in tune with it as Tao teaches. He flows from one motion to another in the river of life, this granting him the sixth sense, intuism he always listens to, the thing that has saved his life on many occasions.
This form, this Tao was taught to him by Mistress Shao-La in the Himalayas. Bruce Wayne had heard about a master with great power residing in the mountains and the young boy wanted to learn more. He went to the master who'd teach him the Tao and also self-control. The light side of this force would give him the control over his emotions and the ability to be in tune with the world, but it wasn't enough for him. Bruce Wayne wanted power, true power and after Shao-La told him about Master H'Sien Tan he would venture out there and learn.
From H'Sien Tan Bruce Wayne learnt the path of personal power. He learnt from the man that he had two destinies and by choosing one of them he'd receive everything he had ever wanted and the second would make him nearly omnipotent. This path would be the path of personal power he sought to avenge and to protect. In time it would also consume him. This little story is part of the package H'Sien Tan taught Bruce. The acceptance. The acceptance of one's fate, one's death and one's power. It was also a craft he taught to Bruce, to know, to feel the world and the energies around himself, to harness those energies and glean answers from them. This form of spiritualism has served Bruce well, but also it has twisted him and he has found ways to distort it, making him appear the victim even if he has wanted it. From H'Sien Tan he also learnt a way to control himself, not just his emotions but his body. Bruce is capable of, instinctually, command his body to stop bleeding, force healing on himself and even more importantly, he is able to ignore the toll exhaustion and the lack of sleep inflicts on him. Also Tan taught him the way to slow down his heart, the flow of his blood, to the level of dying and yet remaining alive.
The dark forces of Tao, the greed, is a powerful mistress and because of this the person who wields these arts needs to be mentally strong to wrest the control lest it controls him in his path to power. This dark art comprises partly of alchemy and magic mixed in with the mental control and hypnotism and this is the most formidable teaching Tan had to give Bruce.
Batman is able to force his presence on others, much like the way the Wrath of God appears. He can grow in people's minds, project his terror on them and destroy their minds, but at the same time he can push his presence inwardly and just disappear from their mind's eye, right in front of them and none will know how nor why. Furthermore he has learnt the power of suggestion, the ability to appear as something else to anyone and this is the key behind his quick costume changes and his disappearances. To add to this, his skills in these arts have given him a willpower matched by nearly none as he can ignore anything and go through stone and rock. The last skill Tan gave to Bruce was the art of the Tiger Fist, a punch so powerful it can rend through mountains, a skill, an art known to only 5 people on Earth and only 2 of them survive 'til this day.
As a ninja, a shadow assassin, Batman has been taught to use his surroundings to his advantage and so he knows when there are people in the correct vantage points, he knows how to conceal himself so that he is virtually invisible and he knows the ways to use the surroundings offensively. This lesson is part of the reason why the Bat was created in this visage. Bruce knows the hearts of the men and he can defeat them before engaging them in combat. In ancient times in Japan, the warrior caste, the Samurai, used the Ninja because their honor couldn't handle the deceitful tactics. However, Batman has no qualms with this and actually he uses quite a lot of deception as he does his work. Chu Chin Li and later on David Cain taught him the assassination tactics and skills, so he is aware of how a possible assassin will work and will think, and he can prepare against these situations.
Japanese sword fighting or Kendo is part of the Bushido class and way of life and also practiced by Batman and Bruce Wayne. From Bushido and Taothe Batman has taken the meditation skills taught to him by Shao-La for clearing his mind and his conscience, even if Alfred tends to call it brooding. Many a time the Bat has solved a case while meditating or sleeping, which is quite the same thing for him as he utilizes the sleeping techniques Shao-La taught him.
The ways of the Shadow Warrior are quite many and there are different rumors and different legends about the ninjas, and when concerning the Bat most of them hold true. However the main thing about the ninja is that they're adaptable and Batman has taken this strategy in his heart and cherishes it. He adapts to any situation and if he isn't able to conquer, he will find another way to do it.
😱
Originally posted by Black Rob
He is basically peak human potential meaning that at best he's SLIGHTY in better shape than most other non powered superheroes anyway. He really isnt that much better than Batman. And as far as experience is concened that's kind of irrelevant considering the way comic canon works they essentially have just as much experience(Slightly favoring Batman since he trained at a younger age than Cap)
Ditto...Batman vs Captain America threads are the NEW Superman vs Goku trend.
Originally posted by batdude123then why doesnt he use these powers all the time?
Batman is a master of Haragei, a master who has expanded his physical senses over this plane of existence to another and thus becoming hyper aware of his surroundings without appearing to really being anything different from others. He is keenly aware of everything going on around him and also the microscopic and the astral world around himself. Furthermore he can feel that world around himself and thus being one of the most difficult targets for telepathy and also telepathic obfuscation. Along these lines the Bat has learnt and masters both the Sakki and Kiai. Kiai is the ability to feel the intent and thus be able to act accordingly. However Sakki is the force of the intention and with these three pillars the Bat can take the physical battle to another level, to the psychological, the mental plane. The Sakki and Kiai, completed with the mastery of Haragei can be used as physical weapons, a force of wills where every blow is even stronger than the physical ones. As a ninja and a master of haragei, Batman has learnt to cope without his sensory input, making him able to fight and function without any sort of handicap should he lose his sight or hearing, or other senses. The fact is that the Bat is far beyond the human senses and even though they are handy, they're not needed.Chi is another facet and a tactic the Batman uses, much like Sakki, it can be projected through the combat. Batman has been shown, on numerous occasions, to be able to perform feats impossible to humans. He has been shown to kick down trees, punch through concrete and mortar walls. He has been shown to be able to lift up a stone totem that weighed over a ton. He can project his Chi out of his body and aid him physically, because of this it is no big feat for him to punch through living trees and walls. By focusing his Chi inside his body he can ignore the physical damage and pain he receives. Through his training, Batman has trained himself to ignore exhaustion, sleep deprivation, emotions and also pain and agony. To anyone looking at the Bat, there is nothing remotely human about him other than the chin. As a Bat, when under control, he feels no emotions, no fear, no love, he is completely indifferent to the world around himself and thus he is in tune with it as Tao teaches. He flows from one motion to another in the river of life, this granting him the sixth sense, intuism he always listens to, the thing that has saved his life on many occasions.
This form, this Tao was taught to him by Mistress Shao-La in the Himalayas. Bruce Wayne had heard about a master with great power residing in the mountains and the young boy wanted to learn more. He went to the master who'd teach him the Tao and also self-control. The light side of this force would give him the control over his emotions and the ability to be in tune with the world, but it wasn't enough for him. Bruce Wayne wanted power, true power and after Shao-La told him about Master H'Sien Tan he would venture out there and learn.
From H'Sien Tan Bruce Wayne learnt the path of personal power. He learnt from the man that he had two destinies and by choosing one of them he'd receive everything he had ever wanted and the second would make him nearly omnipotent. This path would be the path of personal power he sought to avenge and to protect. In time it would also consume him. This little story is part of the package H'Sien Tan taught Bruce. The acceptance. The acceptance of one's fate, one's death and one's power. It was also a craft he taught to Bruce, to know, to feel the world and the energies around himself, to harness those energies and glean answers from them. This form of spiritualism has served Bruce well, but also it has twisted him and he has found ways to distort it, making him appear the victim even if he has wanted it. From H'Sien Tan he also learnt a way to control himself, not just his emotions but his body. Bruce is capable of, instinctually, command his body to stop bleeding, force healing on himself and even more importantly, he is able to ignore the toll exhaustion and the lack of sleep inflicts on him. Also Tan taught him the way to slow down his heart, the flow of his blood, to the level of dying and yet remaining alive.
The dark forces of Tao, the greed, is a powerful mistress and because of this the person who wields these arts needs to be mentally strong to wrest the control lest it controls him in his path to power. This dark art comprises partly of alchemy and magic mixed in with the mental control and hypnotism and this is the most formidable teaching Tan had to give Bruce.
Batman is able to force his presence on others, much like the way the Wrath of God appears. He can grow in people's minds, project his terror on them and destroy their minds, but at the same time he can push his presence inwardly and just disappear from their mind's eye, right in front of them and none will know how nor why. Furthermore he has learnt the power of suggestion, the ability to appear as something else to anyone and this is the key behind his quick costume changes and his disappearances. To add to this, his skills in these arts have given him a willpower matched by nearly none as he can ignore anything and go through stone and rock. The last skill Tan gave to Bruce was the art of the Tiger Fist, a punch so powerful it can rend through mountains, a skill, an art known to only 5 people on Earth and only 2 of them survive 'til this day.
As a ninja, a shadow assassin, Batman has been taught to use his surroundings to his advantage and so he knows when there are people in the correct vantage points, he knows how to conceal himself so that he is virtually invisible and he knows the ways to use the surroundings offensively. This lesson is part of the reason why the Bat was created in this visage. Bruce knows the hearts of the men and he can defeat them before engaging them in combat. In ancient times in Japan, the warrior caste, the Samurai, used the Ninja because their honor couldn't handle the deceitful tactics. However, Batman has no qualms with this and actually he uses quite a lot of deception as he does his work. Chu Chin Li and later on David Cain taught him the assassination tactics and skills, so he is aware of how a possible assassin will work and will think, and he can prepare against these situations.
Japanese sword fighting or Kendo is part of the Bushido class and way of life and also practiced by Batman and Bruce Wayne. From Bushido and Taothe Batman has taken the meditation skills taught to him by Shao-La for clearing his mind and his conscience, even if Alfred tends to call it brooding. Many a time the Bat has solved a case while meditating or sleeping, which is quite the same thing for him as he utilizes the sleeping techniques Shao-La taught him.
The ways of the Shadow Warrior are quite many and there are different rumors and different legends about the ninjas, and when concerning the Bat most of them hold true. However the main thing about the ninja is that they're adaptable and Batman has taken this strategy in his heart and cherishes it. He adapts to any situation and if he isn't able to conquer, he will find another way to do it.
😱