Originally posted by Wynndar
I wouldnt count the Thing out....he has fought the beyonder and the Champion of the universe( original champion)...he is the best underdog fighter there is in comics
Yeah your right. He is defaintly an under dog who pulls wins out of his ass. I think though the thing is just to far out of his league with these three giants of comic literature. for the record though the Thing does kick ass, "it's clobberin time" OOH YEAH
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Firstly, I'll add whatever I want thanks."blah blah yes if the hulk ever gets majorly pissed off he could reach supermans level of stregth but im trying to tell u that abomination a character slightly stronger than the hulk in a calm stage was able to knock him out twice you know why because it takes time for the hulks stregth level to get up so all im sayin is that if abomination a character that is slightly stronger than the hulk when he first transforms can beat him then why in the hell cant superman someone hundreds of times stronger beat down the hulk."
Secondly, why do you keep bringing up Abomination? I used him as an example. He has nothing to do with this debate. He knocked Hulk out. Hulk put a gaping hole in his face in one fight and nearly killed him not to mention all the other times he has beat him to a pulp. Hulk is stronger and better than Abomination so let's not go off topic here.
Your question was how can Hulk beat Superman if Superman would beat Abomination and Abomination knocked Hulk out? Well, you're basically saying Superman can beat Hulk coz Abomination knocked him out. Well that's like saying Pyro could beat Hulk because Ice-Man has frozen Hulk before but Pyro is better than Ice-Man. Just because Abomination beat Hulk on that day it doesn't mean you can make his debatable fight against Superman null and void.
"it takes time for the hulks stregth level to get up "
Why do you continually say this? It doesn't take time for his strength to get up. It actually doesn't. Proven in Hulk #54. But I'll smash this puny "Strength build up" theory to smitherines. Watch and ***** if you want coz like it or not, this is one of the reasons Hulk is the don:
Hulk needs time for his strength to get up yeah? Alot of time? Ok.
So Hulk knew that the mountain was gonna drop on them? He looked up and saw it falling and he had enough time to stand there getting angry? No he didn't. So in YOUR world that would have meant he could only handle 100 tons right? Well what did he do with that mountain when he had to act fast? That's right. He held it up.
Now, I expect many "Oh you used the mountain again". Yes I did, but it has proven all your "It takes time" theories wrong and pure excrement.
Have a good one.
-AC
Why do people keep mentioning the time needed to become angry?
Hulk's anger increases in proportion to stress or anger.
Consider a 150 billion ton mountain range dropping on top of your head and consider the old stress that might just enter your mind for a second. Now I'm not an expert on stress, but I think he might have skipped the odd heartbeat, gulped, and...been terrified to the pit of his soul.
Saying it was a mistake literally invalidates any argument we are using. Who are we to decide what are mistakes?
Superman's original hyperbole was 'Faster than a speeding bullet. More powerful than a locomotive. Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound'.
Hulk's was and has always been 'The strongest one there is'.
Now whose writers have taken more creative liberties?
"yes if abomination a character thousands of times weaker than superman can knock out the hulk than it makes no sence to say superman cant "
Whoa. Abomination has gone from hundreds of times weaker to thousands. Stop giving Superman oral relief, it's annoying.
"ur just being a fanboy about it you basically saying that hulk cant be beat when that aint true because superman would knock the hulk out to fast for him to reach his level of strength just like abomination has done twice and he is nowhere near hulks level of stregth so dont even say that it cant be done."
Hulk can be beat. I know he can be beat and I've never doubted that he can be beat. Superman is not one of those that can do it. If Ice-Man froze the Hulk, but Pyro beat Ice-Man, would that make Pyro better than Hulk? No it wouldn't. So while Abomination has knocked Hulk out, doesn't mean Superman would although he's stronger. Why? Here's why. Two different methods of fighting.
Abomination tries to kill.
Superman tries to end the fight nicely.
You keep saying all this crap about his reaction time being slow and not being able to build anger or stress, as Vic said and I said before him. He had split seconds to look up and see the two miles of mountain falling on him. He had to react within halves of seconds. He did and as a result one of the most astounding feats in comic history was made. Like it or not, it happened. Hulk did it, not Superman. Superman couldn't.
"Superman's original hyperbole was 'Faster than a speeding bullet. More powerful than a locomotive. Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound'."
Exactly. Supermandaman claims he has blistering speed when he couldn't even fly to begin with. He could only leap building. Hulk leaps states. They GAVE Superman more powers. The writers took creative licence to another level, which sucks from a literary point of view. It's like invincibility cheats on a video game. Spider-Man stands taking charges from Rhino and the only reason he survives and whoops is because I took liberties.
Hulk as always been the pure strongest. Regardless of incarnation, that's been his trademark. Superman has had abilities added over the years.
So think before you type. More importantly, read up on Superman coz as it seems, I know more about Hulk and Superman than you do. You didn't even know Superman Prime.
However I would like to return to your theory. Abomination knocked Hulk out, so due to the fact that Superman is stronger than Abomination, that would make Superman the winner? Allow me to show you something that you typed:
"But Thor didnt know that supermans weakness was magic so he couldnt exploit it i mean if he would of know he prolly would of won."
This is you claiming Thor would beat Superman. Thor has been whooped by Hulk on many occasions. So your argument is now on top of you isn't it. If you think Thor is capable of beating Superman and yet Thor has been beaten convincingly by Hulk multiple times, then that would suggest going by your theory of course, that Hulk would beat Superman.
Yeah see. For your sake stop typing.
-AC
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Hulk's anger increases in proportion to stress or anger.
Saying it was a mistake literally invalidates any argument we are using. Who are we to decide what are mistakes?
Hulk's was and has always been 'The strongest one there is'.
Considering that it's both Hulk and Wolverine themselves who claim such nonsense, it doesn't mean a thing. They're just bragging. I could very well say the same thing of myself, and of course it would not be true.
Mind you, I'm convinced that Hulk potentially is the strongest one around. IF he has the time to build up his strength and anger.
Originally posted by who?-kid
Of course, but he needs time. A few seconds is too short.
[B]
Just a comic fan, nothing more, who finds it absurd that an intelligent and calm Hulk can become million of times stronger in a split second (adrenaline or no adrenaline, stress or no stress), where a mindless Hulk, who gets angry much much faster, at least needs a few minutes/half an hour...
[B]
"Hulk is strongest one there is. And Wolverine is the best at what he does."Considering that it's both Hulk and Wolverine themselves who claim such nonsense, it doesn't mean a thing. They're just bragging. I could very well say the same thing of myself, and of course it would not be true.
Mind you, I'm convinced that Hulk potentially is the strongest one around. IF he has the time to build up his strength and anger.
Who says a few seconds is too short? It does not specify a time frame AT ALL, merely that the anger/ stress be there. Hulk's strength is derived from adrenal increases. I don't think adrenaline takes a long time to kick in.
As far as beign incredulous over his dramatic increase: I was just thinking...maybe it suggests...I might be wrong on this one, that his strength has no limit? Like, I dunno, his character was created to do?
Hulk's claim is verified by lots of other characters in the Marvel world. In fact, why is it even being disputed? It's an acceoted fact that Hulk is 'the strongest one there is'.
"In fact, why is it even being disputed? It's an acceoted fact that Hulk is 'the strongest one there is'."
Coz when it boils down to it, people don't like a big, seemingly dumb, green brute being the one who is the strongest of them all. If it was someone who retains intelligence like Abomination, this wouldn't be up for debate.
The FACT is, he is the strongest there is and there's nothing you can do about it but like it or drop it.
-AC
"How long does it take for two miles of mountain to fall on you? And when you realise it, you have mere seconds before it kills you."
Depends on which height the mountains were "floating".
Have you read the comics in which Hulk (savage I think, but I'm not sure) was banned by dr. Strange to other dimensions ? Boy, he gets his ass kicked many times there !! And he was mad as hell, but it didn't matter, he was biting the dust more than once.
Now, there's no shame in it, far from it, everybody loses from time to time. But I hope you see the contradiction : a not-smart Hulk getting real angry, and real strong, needing time also to get real angry, and still not strong enough to defeat some enemies <=> a smart Hulk (who needs much more time to get angry) being able to carry 150 billions of rock in a few seconds ?
Oh yeah, I forgot, the adrenaline thing... Too bad adrenaline is not as reliable at is should be, because in Secret Wars he gets like "tons" of adrenaline just like that, and during other fights, he really has to work hard and long for a bit of extra strength.
But I guess during ALL those other fights, he just wasn't scared/stressed/angry enough... 😄"In fact, why is it even being disputed? It's an acceoted fact
that Hulk is 'the strongest one there is'."
First of all, a fact is always accepted. That's why it's a fact. Duh.
Second, ask the Juggernautfans who's the strongest. Or the Supermanfans.
Coz when it boils down to it, people don't like a big, seemingly dumb, green brute being the one who is the strongest of them all. If it was someone who retains intelligence like Abomination, this wouldn't be up for debate.
O come on, if you actually went into the trouble of reading what I said about Hulk, you should know he's one of my favorites. Do not make the mistake by thinking : "Hey, this guy questions Hulk's strength, he must be anti-Hulk." How childish...
The FACT is, he is the strongest there is and there's nothing you can do about it but like it or drop it.
He is potentially the strongest. A very big difference.
'But I hope you see the contradiction : a not-smart Hulk getting real angry, and real strong, needing time also to get real angry, and still not strong enough to defeat some enemies <=> a smart Hulk (who needs much more time to get angry) being able to carry 150 billions of rock in a few seconds ?'
The only relevant point here is that there are different types of stress. The important factor is not TIME, it is STRESS.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In fact, why is it even being disputed? It's an acceoted fact
that Hulk is 'the strongest one there is'."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First of all, a fact is always accepted. That's why it's a fact. Duh.
Second, ask the Juggernautfans who's the strongest. Or the Supermanfans.'
This is about the dumbest thing I've read all day. A fact is not a fact BECAUSE IT IS ACCEPTED. You have clearly confused subjective and objective.
The Earth is round: was this accepted? Did it only become a fact once accepted?
What you did next was say that subjectivity- ie opinions of other fans- brings into question the nature of a fact.
You sure showed me. 'Duh' was the icing on the cake.
"Depends on which height the mountains were "floating"."
They were floating high so they gathered speed and Hulk didn't notice till the last seconds hence why they all got scared.
So? Now what does your "he needs time" theory say?
"Now, there's no shame in it, far from it, everybody loses from time to time. But I hope you see the contradiction : a not-smart Hulk getting real angry, and real strong, needing time also to get real angry, and still not strong enough to defeat some enemies <=> a smart Hulk (who needs much more time to get angry) being able to carry 150 billions of rock in a few seconds ?"
Why are you dismissing everything we say then going off and conveniently finding stuff that you are twisting to suggest Hulk needs time? Hulk needs no time and your method of debate is cowardly. Dodging what we say while applying pointless logic and physics into a place where they are irrelavant.
"Oh yeah, I forgot, the adrenaline thing... Too bad adrenaline is not as reliable at is should be, because in Secret Wars he gets like "tons" of adrenaline just like that, and during other fights, he really has to work hard and long for a bit of extra strength.
But I guess during ALL those other fights, he just wasn't scared/stressed/angry enough... "
The thing is, that last part is very true. As lame and corny as an excuse you think it is, doesn't erase the fact that it is infact true. If you don't like the fact that some of his losses come from him not being angry enough at the time for whatever reason, I'm sorry. Not all of us can be pleased but people's powers. That is just the way it is though. You not liking it doesn't erase it.
"First of all, a fact is always accepted. That's why it's a fact. Duh.
Second, ask the Juggernautfans who's the strongest. Or the Supermanfans."
Is it debated that these two are as strong if not stronger than The Hulk? Yes. But are those two stronger than The Hulk factually? No they are not. It all boils down to if you are willing to accept his infinate strength level. Whether he has reached them or not, it's within him. There are strength levels within him that nobody can match and it only takes the right amount of fear, anxiety, excitement or anger, to bring it out.
"O come on, if you actually went into the trouble of reading what I said about Hulk, you should know he's one of my favorites. Do not make the mistake by thinking : "Hey, this guy questions Hulk's strength, he must be anti-Hulk." How childish..."
I do really love it when people pretend I said something the go and conjure up a retaliatory comment to said made-up piece of text. I never claimed you were Anti-Hulk. I didn't know "People=Who-Kid?".
"He is potentially the strongest. A very big difference."
The potential you refer to is just unreached. It's existance is real. To all of us who knows that Hulk has unlimited strength anyway.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"yes if abomination a character thousands of times weaker than superman can knock out the hulk than it makes no sence to say superman cant "Whoa. Abomination has gone from hundreds of times weaker to thousands. Stop giving Superman oral relief, it's annoying.
"ur just being a fanboy about it you basically saying that hulk cant be beat when that aint true because superman would knock the hulk out to fast for him to reach his level of strength just like abomination has done twice and he is nowhere near hulks level of stregth so dont even say that it cant be done."
Hulk can be beat. I know he can be beat and I've never doubted that he can be beat. Superman is not one of those that can do it. If Ice-Man froze the Hulk, but Pyro beat Ice-Man, would that make Pyro better than Hulk? No it wouldn't. So while Abomination has knocked Hulk out, doesn't mean Superman would although he's stronger. Why? Here's why. Two different methods of fighting.
Abomination tries to kill.
Superman tries to end the fight nicely.
You keep saying all this crap about his reaction time being slow and not being able to build anger or stress, as Vic said and I said before him. He had split seconds to look up and see the two miles of mountain falling on him. He had to react within halves of seconds. He did and as a result one of the most astounding feats in comic history was made. Like it or not, it happened. Hulk did it, not Superman. Superman couldn't.
"Superman's original hyperbole was 'Faster than a speeding bullet. More powerful than a locomotive. Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound'."
Exactly. Supermandaman claims he has blistering speed when he couldn't even fly to begin with. He could only leap building. Hulk leaps states. They GAVE Superman more powers. The writers took creative licence to another level, which sucks from a literary point of view. It's like invincibility cheats on a video game. Spider-Man stands taking charges from Rhino and the only reason he survives and whoops is because I took liberties.
Hulk as always been the pure strongest. Regardless of incarnation, that's been his trademark. Superman has had abilities added over the years.
So think before you type. More importantly, read up on Superman coz as it seems, I know more about Hulk and Superman than you do. You didn't even know Superman Prime.
However I would like to return to your theory. Abomination knocked Hulk out, so due to the fact that Superman is stronger than Abomination, that would make Superman the winner? Allow me to show you something that you typed:
"But Thor didnt know that supermans weakness was magic so he couldnt exploit it i mean if he would of know he prolly would of won."
This is you claiming Thor would beat Superman. Thor has been whooped by Hulk on many occasions. So your argument is now on top of you isn't it. If you think Thor is capable of beating Superman and yet Thor has been beaten convincingly by Hulk multiple times, then that would suggest going by your theory of course, that Hulk would beat Superman.
Yeah see. For your sake stop typing.
-AC
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
'But I hope you see the contradiction : a not-smart Hulk getting real angry, and real strong, needing time also to get real angry, and still not strong enough to defeat some enemies <=> a smart Hulk (who needs much more time to get angry) being able to carry 150 billions of rock in a few seconds ?'The only relevant point here is that there are different types of stress. The important factor is not TIME, it is STRESS.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In fact, why is it even being disputed? It's an acceoted fact
that Hulk is 'the strongest one there is'."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------First of all, a fact is always accepted. That's why it's a fact. Duh.
Second, ask the Juggernautfans who's the strongest. Or the Supermanfans.'
This is about the dumbest thing I've read all day. A fact is not a fact BECAUSE IT IS ACCEPTED. You have clearly confused subjective and objective.
The Earth is round: was this accepted? Did it only become a fact once accepted?
What you did next was say that subjectivity- ie opinions of other fans- brings into question the nature of a fact.
You sure showed me. 'Duh' was the icing on the cake.
Tea but that mountain was a bunch of bs because if the hulk could get that strong that fast all the time he would get beat as much as he does but anyways look at the link and that comic was written about the same time as secrete wars but im sure ill be hearing that is bad writting but the comic was co written and like homeboy said who are we to judge what is written.
The Earth is round: was this accepted? Did it only become a fact once accepted?
Yes it did. A fact is (I looked it up) : "a concept whose truth can be proved". Seems logical, doesn’t it ? Well, it’s not.
In the early middle-ages, lots of people were convinced the Earth was flat. We’re talking about scientists, astronomers, guys like that. In order to prove Earth really was flat, they came up with the most astonishing – and crazy - proves. Now, people back then didn’t know any better than to believe whatever these scientists were saying. Because, as far as the people back then knew, it was proved Earth really was flat !! So, it was a fact in the early middle-ages !!
Once accepted, even the most ridiculous theory becomes a fact. To some people of course. Some people are convinced ! the moon is made of cheese (not making this up) and have their own methods to proof this. That the moon is made of cheese, is a fact for them. Other people think the pope is really infallible, and they also consider that as fact.
So, to become a “so-called” fact, you don’t need that much. Only acceptation. Nowadays, lots of facts (mostly scientific facts) will later be known as completely wrong. Facts change all the time. Now back to Hulk.The Earth is round: was this accepted? Did it only become a fact once accepted?
Hahaha, Earth is not round. Earth is flattened at the poles 😄.
The only relevant point here is that there are different types of stress. The important factor is not TIME, it is STRESS.
O, Hulk has different types of stress ? Well, that’s a new one…What you did next was say that subjectivity- ie opinions of other fans- brings into question the nature of a fact. [b][quote]
Euhm, maybe you don’t know it, but you’re also being subjective. And please stop claiming that Hulk is the strongest, just like it has been written in the Bible.
Again (I’ll repeat myself) Hulk has certainly the potential to become the strongest. No argue there. But he needs time and anger.
[b][quote]
I do really love it when people pretend I said something the go and conjure up a retaliatory comment to said made-up piece of text. I never claimed you were Anti-Hulk. I didn't know "People=Who-Kid?".
Nice try, but you answered a rhetorical question from Von Doom, and Von Doom was clearly replying to something I wrote. So yes, I have every reason to think you were talking about me.
"Dodging what we say while applying pointless logic and physics into a place where they are irrelavant."
Pointless logic ? Example please ? Besides, it's a strange remark coming from somebody who solves every strength-mystery with "Hulk just wasn't angry enough. Now hush".
They were floating high so they gathered speed and Hulk didn't notice till the last seconds hence why they all got scared. So? Now what does your "he needs time" theory say?
Hm, let’s check my “time theory”… dum du dum... dum dum …okay, it still says the same thing, since it was a matter of seconds (1 second, 5 seconds, who cares), it was still too soon for Hulk to become that strong. Bad writing.
"So yes, I have every reason to think you were talking about me."
No I wasn't.
"Yes it did. A fact is (I looked it up) : "a concept whose truth can be proved". Seems logical, doesn’t it ? Well, it’s not."
It did? So when the Earth was proven to be round, it became round...at that point?
"O, Hulk has different types of stress ? Well, that’s a new one…"
You've never heard of emotional, physical, mental stress? Hmm.
"it was still too soon for Hulk to become that strong. Bad writing."
But at the end of the day, the Secret Wars is widely regarded as one of the greatest comic sagas ever. Poorly written I do not think. Secondly, who are we to challenge what the writers do with their characters? If your argument is that it was shit writing. I can say that about many pieces. I don't because it happened and there's nothing we can do about it. Can reshape history because you don't like a part of it my friend. You saying "bad writing" doesn't erase the event. The event happened and the evidance stands.
-AC
alright so since superman beat hulk and thor before u have nothing else to say about it cause it happened im glad to see u agree finally
http://www.buyersmls.com/comics/hul...tuff/hulk6b.jpg
I mean when superman dont even want to be moved hulk cant move him.
