Superman vs Gladiator.

Originally posted by Philosophía
You don't seem to understand what is wrong with your stance. The Byrne era and the scans from that era, the very scans on which you base your entire argument clearly state that when flying, he moves objects due to willpower and [b]not strength. Thus since you support those scans, it means you agree with them in the sense that strength has nothing to do with moving/lifting things while flying. Your later stance, your attempted backdoor with the 'it's both strength and flying' post is not in concordance with what the scans which form your entire argument say, and it's more in line with "if they bring proof of him using his super-strength, I'll say it's a combination of both, eventough the scans clearly beg to differ"

Let's see some facts.

*In the Byrne era, Superman's lifting ability while in the air was attributed to his flight/will power and not due to strength.
*As I've shown, after this period, it was made quite clear that he uses super-strength/physicall force in order to move objects even while in air, and thus whatever stance you'd try to make using those scans, it still wouldn't apply to Superman after that period.

True ? [/B]

My scans in no way state that when he moves something it's due to willpower alone and that strength is never an issue, just that there's something else at work. That doesn't mean that whatever he's talking about is the ONLY thing at work, I've always taken it to mean ALSO at work. And as for your scan, do you have any idea how often phrases like "through willpower alone..." get thrown around in comics? A lot. I could probably find a dozen scans saying something similar of Captain America when he's pushing his strength to the max, but it doesn't mean that his muscles aren't doing the work because he's "willing" whatever he's doing to happen. It's called colorful writing. Don't get me wrong because I can totally understand some people interpreting the scans that way, but that was never the interpretation that I myself was espousing.

And my argument is supported by more than just those scans, according to Juntai(who's not prone to lying that I know of) Supes's powers are(not were) often attributed to telekinesis of some form. Now if you can get Juntai in here to say that he was wrong or misspoke and that Supes's powers have NEVER been attributed to anything like tk since the Byrne's day I'll totally accept that because as I pointed out Juntai's a pretty strait shooter and isn't one to lie.

Your problem is that you're so intent on trying to make me look bad that you're grasping at straws to discredit my argument and stance on the matter. That's probably why you seem so pissed now that I've proven your accusations of my changing my argument to be false. But I never changed my argument and I still haven't, Supes lifting/pulling/pushing feats while flying aren't invalid because his strength isn't a factor, they're invalid because we don't know how much of it is physical strength and how much of it is his "flight power". It's an inconsistently portrayed phenomenon, Juntai even said as much. As is, the way I see it...

Facts.

1. Evidence has been posted that Supes's flight IS a factor in his pulling/pushing/lifting things while flying.
2. No evidence has been posted that Supes's flight power ISN'T a factor in his pulling/pushing/lifting things while flying.

Originally posted by darthgoober
False.

My scans in no way state that when he moves something it's due to willpower alone and that strength is never an issue, just that there's something else at work. That doesn't mean that whatever he's talking about is the ONLY thing at work, I've always taken it to mean ALSO at work. And as for your scan, do you have any idea how often phrases like "through willpower alone..." get thrown around in comics? A lot. I could probably find a dozen scans saying something similar of Captain America when he's pushing his strength to the max, but it doesn't mean that his muscles aren't doing the work because he's "willing" whatever he's doing to happen. It's called colorful writing. Don't get me wrong because I can totally understand some people interpreting the scans that way, but that was never the interpretation that I myself was espousing.

And my argument is supported by more than just those scans, according to Juntai(who's not prone to lying that I know of) Supes's powers are(not were) often attributed to telekinesis of some form. Now if you can get Juntai in here to say that he was wrong or misspoke and that Supes's powers have NEVER been attributed to anything like tk since the Byrne's day I'll totally accept that because as I pointed out Juntai's a pretty strait shooter and isn't one to lie.

Your problem is that you've so intent on trying to make me look bad that you're grasping at straws to discredit my argument and stance on the matter. That's probably why you seem so pissed now that I've proven your accusations of my changing my argument to be false. But I never changed my argument and I still haven't, Supes lifting/pulling/pushing feats while flying aren't invalid because his strength isn't a factor, they're invalid because we don't know how much of it is physical strength and how much of it is his "flight power". It's an inconsistently portrayed phenomenon, Juntai even said as much. As is, the way I see it...

Facts.

1. Evidence has been posted that Supes's flight IS a factor in his pulling/pushing/lifting things while flying.
2. No evidence has been posted that Supes's flight power ISN'T a factor in his pulling/pushing/lifting things while flying.

You think I posted this scan out of generosity ?

Heh.

No, it's a scan from the same period from where your scan is from, by the same author, to further elaborate how Superman's power worked in that era.

Superman: The Lab seems to have lost almost all of its weight now that I'm flying rather than using pure muscle power. Evidently, I fly objects the same way I fly myself -- by sheer force of will, not by strength

Superman's powers, as my scan show, no longer work this way as he uses his super-strength thus, since these scans no longer apply, anything trying to be proven concerning Superman by using them is not valid.

Like I said, and be carefull when I say this because I've said it enough already, if you base your entire stance on what was established during that era, then your current stance with both strength and flying playing a factor in him lifting objects while in air is not correct because it is clearly said that strength is not a factor.

So in essence, the scans which you used in this thread to try to discredit Superman's feats while in flight, is baseless since the scans you used don't apply and even your stance using them is incorrect.

As for your facts:

1.That evidence is no longer in continuity/doesn't apply to current Superman, as I've proven.
2.It's not my job to prove it's not a factor, it's yours to prove that it is.

What the hell is this, an ego battle ? I'm not trying to discredit you, you're doing a good job by yourself. I already proved my case, that the scans you used to try to discredit Superman are no longer applicable to current Superman and thus, you have absolutley nothing to base your current stance on. It's not that hard really. I don't want to continue this 'I have to say something!!1' ego-fueled driven bullshit, so if you want, we can pm Juntai, Raoul, or whoever to give their views on what was written up until now.

superman uses thrust/lift + gripping strength to pull/hoist things in flight, and conversely thrust\lift + strength to push/lift things in flight.

it's quite simple.

You really don't seem to grasp what we're discussing, do you ?

Originally posted by Philosophía
We were discussing whether or not Superman applies his strength when flying while lifting things, and as I proved, eventough during Byrne era the object was moved using pure willpower and not strength, that's not the case afterwards.

your trying to say that it's mostly attributed to strength, i'm just saying there is thrust involved since he's airborne.

Originally posted by Philosophía
You think I posted this scan out of generosity ?

Heh.

No, it's a scan from the same period from where your scan is from, by the same author, to further elaborate how Superman's power worked in that era.

Superman: The Lab seems to have lost almost all of its weight now that I'm flying rather than using pure muscle power. Evidently, I fly objects the same way I fly myself -- [b]by sheer force of will, not by strength [/B]

Originally posted by Philosophía
Superman's powers, as my scan show, no longer work this way as he uses his super-strength thus, since these scans no longer apply, anything trying to be proven concerning Superman by using them is not valid.

Like I said, and be carefull when I say this because I've said it enough already, if you base your entire stance on what was established during that era, then your current stance with both strength and flying playing a factor in him lifting objects while in air is not correct because it is clearly said that strength is not a factor.

So in essence, the scans which you used in this thread to try to discredit Superman's feats while in flight, is baseless since the scans you used don't apply and even your stance using them is incorrect.

As for your facts:

1.That evidence is no longer in continuity/doesn't apply to current Superman, as I've proven.
2.It's not my job to prove it's not a factor, it's yours to prove that it is.

No it just means that his strength is now a factor, it doesn't mean that the effect of whatever force used in flight has been completely removed. If you're going to argue that something has been completely changed about a character, you need evidence of the things that have changed. Your scans definitely indicate that Supes's powers have changed, but we can't throw out everything from Byrne because not ALL of his idea's have been thrown out(as made evident by the fact that Supes's powers are often portrayed as being similar to telekinesis). They didn't recton out another force at work, they rectonned out his strength NOT being at work. We know his strength plays a part now... great. My scans still show that other force at work and that's further supported by later authors with instances of his powers being telekinetic in nature. They're not as good a proof as the more recent scans(which I'll start using as I'm pointed their way by a Supes fan or I stumble onto them myself), but they're still valid evidence of my side of the argument.

Originally posted by Philosophía
What the hell is this, an ego battle ? I'm not trying to discredit you, you're doing a good job by yourself. I already proved my case, that the scans you used to try to discredit Superman are no longer applicable to current Superman and thus, you have absolutley nothing to base your current stance on. It's not that hard really. I don't want to continue this 'I have to say something!!1' ego-fueled driven bullshit, so if you want, we can pm Juntai, Raoul, or whoever to give their views on what was written up until now.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Your argument was entirely dependent on the scans from the Byrne era where it's stated that he moves objects not by strength, but by willpower, similar to how he flies, and thus anything he moves while flying is not due to his strength, but due to his flying ability. I proved, using scans from later instances, that part to be wrong.

Your stance wasn't "I've never contended that strength doesn't factor into it, just that his flight does as well.", that's just something you put up now, because it was entirely based on the scans from that period, which state what I've written above. Now, once those scans have been nullified, you, heh, retcon your stance into something it never was, ignoring what your stance was initially/the scans and start assuming/speculating that flying plays a part in his strength feats, despite this having nothing to do with what we were initially discussing.

So you see, since your stance was based on those scans, it was pretty much "what he moves while flying has nothing to do with his strenght" while your current stance is "flying plays a part in his strength feats while in the air, so they don't count".

Anyhow..

...discrediting? It seems to me that the implication was that I was lying and backpeddling about my original stance("Now, once those scans have been nullified, you, heh, retcon your stance into something it never was"😉 but then again I guess maybe I'm the only one who took it that way 🙄 .

Originally posted by psycho gundam
i give superman the benefit of the doubt though, the silver surfer can fly through real size black hole effortlessly, superman was struggling to contain a tiny baby one.

but since he held it and didn't at least lose a hand, it's a nice feat

Lawlz?

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/5884/lightspeedot9.jpg
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/4229/lightspeed2vm5.jpg

fail. *but good on you for putting a question mark after "lawlz" since you yourself had to be unsure of what you attempted to pull. 👆 *

anyway, superman was struggling with the singularity in both instances (holding the small one and this one), and this one in particular he was going balls-to-the-walls to get away from it. he didn't even get withing the event horizon (the schwarzchild radius he's thinking about), heh which the writer erroneously stated required a speed matching the speed of light to escape. it's actually a speed above light to actually move away from he singularity.

and that's not a ftl feat either, superman didn't cross the event horizon so he didn't need to cross the light barrier to escape, he was frozen by push/pull before the speed of light would be required to escape. just saying

anyway, silver surfer goes through them unharmed, shit, he can create the damn things. but superman still held a small one in his hands, it's still hell of a durability feat.

Originally posted by darthgoober
That one is my bad. I must have read the scan wrong 😮 .

No it just means that his strength is now a factor, it doesn't mean that the effect of whatever force used in flight has been completely removed. If you're going to argue that something has been completely changed about a character, you need evidence of the things that have changed. Your scans definitely indicate that Supes's powers have changed, but we can't throw out everything from Byrne because not ALL of his idea's have been thrown out(as made evident by the fact that Supes's powers are often portrayed as being similar to telekinesis). They didn't recton out another force at work, they rectonned out his strength NOT being at work. We know his strength plays a part now... great. My scans still show that other force at work and that's further supported by later authors with instances of his powers being telekinetic in nature. They're not as good a proof as the more recent scans(which I'll start using as I'm pointed their way by a Supes fan or I stumble onto them myself), but they're still valid evidence of my side of the argument.

You don't consider this...

...discrediting? It seems to me that the implication was that I was lying and backpeddling about my original stance("Now, once those scans have been nullified, you, heh, retcon your stance into something it never was"😉 but then again I guess maybe I'm the only one who took it that way 🙄 .

Since I posted that scan I logically assumed that you read it, and thus when you started making arguments that weren't in line with what was presented during that period, and yet saying that the scans support you, I called you on it. I wasn't discrediting you since .. that was exactly what you were doing.

And now, funnily enough, you're accusing me of discrediting you and yet, you're the one who, eventough I clearly proved that Superman's power don't work the way they used to during the Byrne period you're going "hey, I'm just going to assume flight is a big part until he's showing me proof that it doesn't". I did provide proof that they changed, drastically, since it went from 'I move objects while in air using willpower and not strength' to 'I move objects while in air using super-strength' nothing about flight playing a big part in it ever being mentioned again. And now you're asking me for proof of Superman somewhat illogically, stupidly saying "my flight plays no part in me lifting things" out of the blue, when it your job to provide proof that after Byrne flight still has a big effect on Superman lifting things while in the air. Is what you're doing sounding logical to you, or, like I said, just some ego-driven I've-got-to-have-the-last word posts ?

And you're also missing what our discussion was all about. We were never discussing how much does flight affect Superman's lifting/moving stuff while in air, we were discussing the Byrne era scans you used/your stance based on them and as I proved that they are no longer in continuity, your whole argument, your 'mythbust' is based on scans that no longer apply.

It's not quantum physics for Christ's sake.

Superman just got owned in a race with the flash. He got owned hard and even found out why he could keep up with him before in prior races.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Since I posted that scan I logically assumed that you read it, and thus when you started making arguments that weren't in line with what was presented during that period, and yet saying that the scans support you, I called you on it. I wasn't discrediting you since .. that was exactly what you were doing.

And now, funnily enough, you're accusing me of discrediting you and yet, you're the one who, eventough I clearly proved that Superman's power don't work the way they used to during the Byrne period you're going "hey, I'm just going to assume flight is a big part until he's showing me proof that it doesn't". [b]I did provide proof that they changed, drastically, since it went from 'I move objects while in air using willpower and not strength' to 'I move objects while in air using super-strength' nothing about flight playing a big part in it ever being mentioned again. And now you're asking me for proof of Superman somewhat illogically, stupidly saying "my flight plays no part in me lifting things" out of the blue, when it your job to provide proof that after Byrne flight still has a big effect on Superman lifting things while in the air. Is what you're doing sounding logical to you, or, like I said, just some ego-driven I've-got-to-have-the-last word posts ?

And you're also missing what our discussion was all about. We were never discussing how much does flight affect Superman's lifting/moving stuff while in air, we were discussing the Byrne era scans you used/your stance based on them and as I proved that they are no longer in continuity, your whole argument, your 'mythbust' is based on scans that no longer apply.

It's not quantum physics for Christ's sake. [/B]

His strength plays a part now, that's not really a major change except as far as his strength goes. And what you keep failing to address, is that Supes's powers are often attributed to telekinesis(or at least something similar). That means that there's still "another force at work" which means that my scans are still valid because the other force at work wasn't recotonned just Supes's strength being a factor. My scans prove that there's another force at work, if you're looking to counter that you need proof that there's not another force at work.

The scans apply until they don't. Like your scan that states he uses strength alone... that doesn't apply anymore. My scan that states there's another force at work when he's flying, that still does. It's still supported by later instances of his powers being portrayed as being telekinetic in nature so it's still valid because those later instances support that aspect of Supes's powers still being in effect.

Originally posted by darthgoober
You said I changed my argument changed... my previous quotes on the matter clearly indicate that it I never did. That was my bad on your scan though.

His strength plays a part now, that's not really a major change except as far as his strength goes. And what you keep failing to address, is that Supes's powers are often attributed to telekinesis(or at least something similar). That means that there's still "another force at work" which means that my scans are still valid because the other force at work wasn't recotonned just Supes's strength being a factor. My scans prove that there's another force at work, if you're looking to counter that you need proof that there's not another force at work.

The scans apply until they don't. Like your scan that states he uses strength alone... that doesn't apply anymore. My scan that states there's another force at work when he's flying, that still does. It's still supported by later instances of his powers being portrayed as being telekinetic in nature so it's still valid because those later instances support that aspect of Supes's powers still being in effect.

That is a major change because it completly nullifies your scans since him not using his strength while lifting things in the air was the whole point of your & my scan. You fail to realize that my scan is talking about exactly the same thing your scan does, written by the same author, concerning the same ability, reffering strictly to Superman not needing his super-strenght when supporting/lifting/moving things while flying, which as I've proved, no longer applies. The scans, the way they describe Superman's abilities are not canon anymore and thus your mythbust, your stance based on them is completly nullified. Any thing you are trying to prove using those scans doesn't apply to current Superman.

It's simple. It's logical. It's obvious. And I'm not going to waste my time anymore with this. I'll PM Juntai and Raoul, because this has become idiotic and see what they have to say.

Originally posted by Philosophía
That is a major change because it completly nullifies your scans since him not using his strength while lifting things in the air was the whole point of your & my scan. You fail to realize that my scan is talking about exactly the same thing your scan does, written by the same author, concerning the same ability, reffering strictly to Superman not needing his super-strenght when supporting/lifting/moving things while flying, which as I've proved, no longer applies. The scans, the way they describe Superman's abilities [b]are not canon anymore and thus your mythbust, your stance based on them is completly nullified. Any thing you are trying to prove using those scans doesn't apply to current Superman.

It's simple. It's logical. It's obvious. And I'm not going to waste my time anymore with this. I'll PM Juntai and Raoul, because this has become idiotic and see what they have to say. [/B]

Originally posted by darthgoober
You're either not getting this or you're deliberately ignoring that which you don't like.

^lol

Originally posted by darthgoober
You say that it's a major change to his powers, but later instances that indicate his powers being telekinetic in nature disagree with you. Those later instances support my stance that the other force is still at work and mean that my scans are still valid even if some of what Byrne set up isn't.

If you have later instances, use those instances. That's not the point of the discussion. We are strictly discussing those scans and your stance based on them, nothing more. And since, like proven what was stated in those scans is no longer in canon, your mythbust and your stance, which was based entirely on them is nullified. What the hell, man ?

Originally posted by Philosophía
^lol

If you have later instances, use those instances. That's not the point of the discussion. We are strictly discussing those scans and your stance based on them, nothing more. And since, like proven what was stated in those scans is no longer in canon, your mythbust and your stance, which was based entirely on them is nullified. What the hell, man ?

Or are you of the opinion that Matrix Supergirl is no longer canon since she was introduced in Byrne's run even though she was also featured in books by later authors?

Originally posted by darthgoober
I'll use those instances as soon as I get them, but they support the scans I have now, so I'll keep on using them. Your case is dependant on the idea that all of Byrne's stuff should be thrown out, but those later instances of his powers being portrayed as being along the lines of telekinesis(that both you and Juntai acknowledge) support the stance that those scans are still valid.

Or are you of the opinion that Matrix Supergirl is no longer canon since she was introduced in Byrne's run even though she was also featured in books by later authors?

The scans that you have now state that while in flight, strength is not a factor in moving/lifting/pulling things which has been pulled out of continuity. You based your entire argument on this scans, and since they aren't applicable to current Superman, your stance and thus your mythbust are irrelevant. I can't put it in any simpler terms and I've repeated this so many times, my hand hurts. This discussion has been over for a few posts now, and I'm not about to go repeating the same thing over.and.over.again. Your use of the Supergirl example makes me want to e-cry. facepalm

You don't seem to understand simple things. Very simple. It's like I'm arguing with Quanchi/Carver only there's actually coherence in sentences, if not logic. Something was presented in the Byrne era, on which you base your entire argument on. After that era (and since then, there have been quite a few reboots -zero hour and infinite crisis being the major ones-) what was stated there was never mentioned again, and one important thing that just doesn't seem to sink in, there is on-panel proof that what was stated there is not true anymore. As in pulled out of continuity. As not applicable to current Superman Now, you're somehow saying that you're still using those scans because, well, you've heard from Juntai that Superman uses telekinesis while moving things, and thus, those scans are somewhat in agreeance.. with the scans you're using right now, which state that strength is not a factor in Superman moving things in air, eventough as I proved it is. I feel like my eyes bleed if I read another one of your leaps of logic. The Supergirl example is not applicable since there is nothing that directly contradicts it, unlike the case we have here. Hell, this is obviously such a bad example, that I shouldn't even be pointing it out.

Originally posted by leonidas
it certainly wasn't flight assisted so keeping his fingers and hand from being sucked in is an enormous feat. i'm not sure what you're talking about in regards to earth being a gravity slave. superman prevented the gravittional effects from escaping--he contained them in his hand. the entire mass of the singularity was concentrated in his hand, if only briefly.

regardless, i think we can agree it was an extremely impressive feat.

* just a theory

well, gravity can't be contained, period. every object's gravitation permeates the entire universe to the limits i.e. even the farthest particles in the end of the known universe is affected by a marble's gravity, just not as strongly as the earth is due to proximity.

only theoretically (and in science-fiction) gravity can be negated by anti-gravitons. if superman generates them, and from wherever he wants on his body to emanate from (like down and back to fly), he could mostly repel the gravity of the singularity in his hands without the outside world feeling the pull.

like concentrating all his ant-graviton emission to his palm to repel the gravitation of the singularity.

it would be the same as him flying against the pull of the other black hole, just within his hand.

* theory over

Originally posted by psycho gundam
i think i missed this one leo.

* just a theory

well, gravity can't be contained, period. every object's gravitation permeates the entire universe to the limits i.e. even the farthest particles in the end of the known universe is affected by a marble's gravity, just not as strongly as the earth is due to proximity.

only theoretically (and in science-fiction) gravity can be negated by anti-gravitons. if superman generates them, and from wherever he wants on his body to emanate from (like down and back to fly), he could mostly repel the gravity of the singularity in his hands without the outside world feeling the pull.

like concentrating all his ant-graviton emission to his palm to repel the gravitation of the singularity.

it would be the same as him flying against the pull of the other black hole, just within his hand.

* theory over

i was implying that he was containing the catastrophic pull within the event horizon and preventing the hole from feeding too quickly. but what you're saying makes sense re: the anti-gravitons. the feat itself is just hard to grasp. crazy

he DID fly with it in his hands though (john stewart helped him out). even with the help of a single GL, flying around with a blackhole in his hands and holding it for a prolonged length of time is damn impressive.

Originally posted by Philosophía
The scans that you have now state that while in flight, strength is not a factor in moving/lifting/pulling things which has been pulled out of continuity. You based your entire argument on this scans, and since they aren't applicable to current Superman, your stance and thus your mythbust are irrelevant. I can't put it in any simpler terms and I've repeated this so many times, my hand hurts. This discussion has been over for a few posts now, and I'm not about to go repeating the same thing over.and.over.again. Your use of the Supergirl example makes me want to e-cry. facepalm

You don't seem to understand simple things. Very simple. It's like I'm arguing with Quanchi/Carver only there's actually coherence in sentences, if not logic. Something was presented in the Byrne era, on which you base your entire argument on. After that era (and since then, there have been quite a few reboots -zero hour and infinite crisis being the major ones-) what was stated there was never mentioned again, and one important thing that just doesn't seem to sink in, there is on-panel proof that what was stated there is not true anymore. As in pulled out of continuity. As not applicable to current Superman Now, you're somehow saying that you're still using those scans because, well, you've heard from Juntai that Superman uses telekinesis while moving things, and thus, those scans are somewhat in agreeance.. with the scans you're using right now, which state that strength is not a factor in Superman moving things in air, eventough as I proved it is. I feel like my eyes bleed if I read another one of your leaps of logic. The Supergirl example is not applicable since there is nothing that directly contradicts it, unlike the case we have here. Hell, this is obviously such a bad example, that I shouldn't even be pointing it out.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Take my name off your keyboard. You are the kind of poster who runs most of the time, but when you do post you try to exude this superiority complex which is just a facade. 😬

That's because he's gay.