Originally posted by Wynndar
its not morality, its leadership...its real life decisions...I dont want to read about candy coated kiddy stuff. In real life there is life and death and wars. Black Panther wins...while Captain sits around and cries about morality.
That's not leadership, it's manipulation. Being a leader requires a moral compass, or else you wind up another 2-bit dictator like Hitler, who Cap spent an entire war fighting against. You talk about war; Cap lead troops into battle against the Nazis, the Japanese, and the armies of Hydra. I think Captain America might know just a thing or two about being a leader during times of war. Much more than Panther could EVER hope to know. And Cap has never sat around and cried about anything. What comic books have you been reading? Obviously none of the issues in MY sizable collection. You think because BP has the power to hurt innocent people he should do it? I'm sorry, I thought he was a HERO! I can't think of one single instance where Cap EVER knowingly or willingly put an innocent person in harm's way for ANY reason. And he lead from the front, by example. Everything you say about BP as some shining example of why he would win simply sounds like another way of describing a coward and a villain to me. Probably why I have ZERO interest in reading any of his books, I don't care how "gritty" he gets. Who cares? The man you guys describe is NOT a hero. And unlike in real life, in the funny papers, the HERO ALWAYS WINS!!!
Btw, if you don't like "candy coated kid stuff", then why the @#$% do you have Thundercats on your post? Have you seen that cartoon? Was there EVER a more childishly simplistic "super hero" cartoon? And since we're on the subject, that ENTIRE show was about learning how to be a RESPONSIBLE and JUST leader. All of the other Thundercats spent the entire series trying to teach Liono how to be a JUST, WISE, and MORAL leader. Do you even HAVE a point?
😠 💃 😠
Cap wins. Give it up.
Hahahaha...Thundercats was way ahead of its time...no cartoon has ever been like it...no cartoon acceptable for children to watch...yes it did try to instill morals in kids...but what does that have to do with me having the symbol? Maybe I just think it looks cool, maybe I like the way it reminds me of my childhood, maybe I appreciate Thundercats for its artistic value, regardless its none of your business...U sound really emotional...have I struck a nerve?...or r u just mad that we've made it so clear that your idol would lose?...your argument didnt do anything to support Captain America, u only attempted to make an attack on my character...which u failed...Thundercats may have been the best cartton ever! in my opinion, I can think of dozens that were more childish and simplistic.
Black Panther Wins!!!
Originally posted by Capt.JK
That's not leadership, it's manipulation. Being a leader requires a moral compass, or else you wind up another 2-bit dictator like Hitler, who Cap spent an entire war fighting against. You talk about war; Cap lead troops into battle against the Nazis, the Japanese, and the armies of Hydra. I think Captain America might know just a thing or two about being a leader during times of war. Much more than Panther could EVER hope to know. And Cap has never sat around and cried about anything. What comic books have you been reading? Obviously none of the issues in MY sizable collection. You think because BP has the power to hurt innocent people he should do it? I'm sorry, I thought he was a HERO! I can't think of one single instance where Cap EVER knowingly or willingly put an innocent person in harm's way for ANY reason. And he lead from the front, by example. Everything you say about BP as some shining example of why he would win simply sounds like another way of describing a coward and a villain to me. Probably why I have ZERO interest in reading any of his books, I don't care how "gritty" he gets. Who cares? The man you guys describe is NOT a hero. And unlike in real life, in the funny papers, the HERO ALWAYS WINS!!!Btw, if you don't like "candy coated kid stuff", then why the @#$% do you have Thundercats on your post? Have you seen that cartoon? Was there EVER a more childishly simplistic "super hero" cartoon? And since we're on the subject, that ENTIRE show was about learning how to be a RESPONSIBLE and JUST leader. All of the other Thundercats spent the entire series trying to teach Liono how to be a JUST, WISE, and MORAL leader. Do you even HAVE a point?
😠 💃 😠
Cap wins. Give it up.
The first thing you have to do is realize that T'Challa isn't American and doesn't hold the same values as western ideology. He's the monarch of an African nation and will deal with situations accordingly. " The ends justify the means. " etc. And since when do leaders not manipulate people? That's a new one to me friend. If you believe that no leader manipulates people whether it's intentionally or otherwise then you're extremely naive. A leader is a politician and all politicians manipulate and skew the truth to meet their means. That's reality. But yes I agree, a leader needs a moral compass and T'Challa has his moral compass which is always defending the interests of Wakanda and her neighbors. In fact in the very first issue that Priest wrote; Marvel Knights - Black Panther #1 vol.2, Black Panther was defending neighboring African refugees from being slaughtered and has done so for countless other countries in the past. Among African nations T'Challa and Wakanda are considered great idealists and are a shining example of what a country should be.
Yes, it's true. Captain America did lead many battles to fight off the Japanese, Nazi's and Hydra during WW2. But strictly fighting battles and wars does not a leader make. Captain America was an amazing soldier who followed the orders of his country. He had no choice especially since he was the governments property in essence. He didn't make the big decisions when he was at War. The generals and so forth did and he HAD to follow them. He was sent in with a primary directive and carried it out without question. He did so in the service of his country. Black Panther on the other hand has always had to balance out his warrior nature as well as his political nature. Unlike Captain America. T'Challa leads his country and makes all the decisions regarding their place in the world. He feeds them, clothes them and protects them on a DAILY basis from all outside threats which there are many of considering he protects the single and greatest source of Vibranium in the world. Captain America has little to no sway over his GOVERNMENTS views or standings. He is strictly SOLDIER and pretty much like a gun. America points the direction and Captain America is shot there. ( Heh. And bullets hit T'Challa only to FALL to the ground. ) He doesn't protect or regulate America on a daily standing. T'Challa has NO breaks as the King of Wakanda. He has to be alert at all times especially when he's outside the country. Captain America a better leader? Psh. When was the last time Cap bought food, clothes or medicine for the American people? When was the last time Captain America lead a United Nations conference asking to aid other countries and supply support? When was the last time Captain America did anything besides throw his shield to get results? Captain America though a great warrior is merely a SYMBOL. That's it.
If you keep bringing your views of what a supposed true hero is meant to be by using Captain America as the sole definition then you're always going to be WRONG. ( Ie; Punisher, Cable, Elektra, Black Widow are all considered heroes in their own right and don't submit to all American ideals. ) Besides, Black Panther is NOT I repeat NOT a super hero. All of his interests are stocked within maintaining the balance and prosperity of Wakanda by any and all means. He's a KING and a LEADER before he's a so called hero. He does what he does in order to protect his country and would kill anyone in the way to do so. Again, you can't apply western ideology to the character. He's AFRICAN. And contrary to popular belief...not everything America does is great and altruistic. Not everyone sees the world as Captain America and the greater part of the U.S. do. And sometimes leaders have to make decisions that aren't always popular or seen as righteous in order to maintain prosperity later down the line. If T'Challa hadn't sent the economy crashing then worse men would have been able to seize control of Wakanda and rape the land as well as her peoples. Black Panther did what he did because it was necessary. That is the truth of the world. You do what you HAVE to do regardless of what people think. He made a decision in order to protect his people and apparently -- it worked.
You always mention " gritty " when speaking of certain characters. Well guess what BOB? The MARVEL world is GRITTY. The streets aren't paved in gold and not everyone claps their hands to save tinkerbell. If you want wholesome and happy go read something DC. They still have heroes who think eye glasses are a superb secret identity. The reason why Black Panther is such a good read is because of the dynamics the character has to deal with on a regular basis. He's pulled in all directions by choices that many other characters -- including Captain America -- don't have to make. He's got to maintain his country while staying balanced and diplomatic with the world. At the same time he's got to always appear strong for his people leading by example but not overtly shallow so that the WORLD on a a whole doesn't shun Wakanda. He's dealing with internal struggles, people who want to take over Wakanda from inside and people who want to take over Wakanda from the OUTSIDE. ( For the vibranium mounds. ) And all the while he makes trips here and there to America to help out the Avengers when they're in a crisis situation. Marvel Comics isn't the " funny " papers. It's a Universe that's a metaphorical mirror of what's going on in society today. It's a representation of how we view the world as well as the dangers and triumphs within it. The hero doesn't always win. Why? Because your definition of a hero is dead. And you're right..he's not a hero. He's a realist that knows that you can't change the world...you can only survive in it. Like me. And that's why I like the Black Panther..he's a more truthful representation of the world.
I win.
too big of a post, i have to read it later lol
Originally posted by lifeisaglich
And by the way Drug lords with their first millions can raise armies without even trying. Ask for batman raising fleets why would he need too (When the people he trains can go up against the most elite of elite swat teams in the world and still show them how to do their work?
First off, this thread is about Captain America vs Black Panther. Not who has the better country (I STILL say America by a mile) or who would make a better politician. Obviously, BP makes a better politician and POLITICAL leader, because his moral compass is vague enough to be able to make the decisions that affect the regular folks. Cap has no such ability. Perhaps you find it quaint that he sees things as right or wrong, black or white. And perhaps you like BP because he sees so many shades of grey. My response to you is: why does that make him a better hero? For his people or any others? My answer to you is that perhaps if there were more heroes who were not afraid to stand up and say "THIS IS WRONG", then the world, real or imaginary, would not be in the sorry shape it is in today. I say being a hero requires that you see things a little MORE black and white, and when you see something is wrong, you draw your line in the sand and say "NO MORE". THAT is what makes a man a hero. Not this vague wishy-washyness that you seem to extrapolate upon over and over as some extraordinary quality that Panther possesses. Using people to achieve your own ends, whether you think it is justified or not, does not make it right nor you a hero. And Panther seems to suffer from these feelings of grandeur that his goals are more important than everyone else's.
My descriptions of Captain America as a leader where in response to Wynndar's comments about being a leader in times of war. Clearly, Cap is the stronger version. Cap never rushed blindly into ANY situation his government sent him into, and has gone against the directives of the US government on many occasions. At one point he was even removed as Captain America because he refused to follow what he considered were corrupt politicians. Read the current issues of Captain America and the Falcon; he goes against government directives in order to hide a naval version of himself because he knows it will result in the young man's death. And Captain America is one of the more common super-powered speakers in front of the United Nations General Assembly. He does not blindly pursue the interests of the US GOVERNMENT. His life is dedicated to the pursuit of freedom for ALL people, not just America's, because he believes that is what AMERICA and the ideals that form its foundation are what his uniform symbolizes. Cap has stated HUNDREDS of times that it is the uniform that people respond to. That is why he wore a mask; so that it would be AMERICA striking a blow for freedom against the Axis, not a particular man. In the early days, the Axis believed that there was actually an entire army of Captain Americas running around, due to his anonymity. And Cap has tried to maintain his standing in the United Nations for himself and the Avengers so that he could pursue the bad guys no matter where they went, no matter where they struck.
And I do appreciate "gritty" characters; Wolverine has a somewhat skewed code of justice, but he does not hurt the innocent to protect his own interests or goals. DD took up the mantel SPECIFICALLY to pursue the predators who preyed on the weak. Bat Man did it for the SAME reasons. Punisher, although not my favorite character, has adopted the goal in life of wiping out the "bad guys".
None of which has anything to do with what this thread was started out to explore: which one would win in a knock-down, drag-out knuckleduster between these two characters. And if you think Panther could defeat CAPTAIN FREAKIN' AMERICA in a one-on-one hand-to-hand scrap, then you have obviously never read anything BUT Panther comics. There is NO WAY BP has the skill to defeat Cap. You have got to be able to see that. I can step back and realistically see when Cap is outmatched, and brother, this ain't even close.
*Note to Wynndar: One, my argument wasn't directed at the Thundercats. That was merely a side observation at your choice of SYMBOLS based on the things you had said about Cap and BP.
Secondly, I was not emotional, I was merely trying to make a point without using bad language to stress it as some others do in these threads. Young readers do post here, and I try to be aware of that. I also didn't think it would be very conducive to expound upon the virtues of Cap while using NON Cap-like language.
Thirdly, a nerve has been struck with me as far as my adulation of Captain America, but you had nothing to do with it. My love for comics and Cap started as a young child when my grandfather introduced me to comic books ("funny books" as he called them), and to the Cap comics in particular that he carried with him when he fought and nearly died fighting the Japanese during WW2. Captain America was a HUGE inspiration to the boys in his company, who eagerly looked forward to the mail with the next delivery of packages from home, which invariably always included "funny books", especially Captain America. And in those days, I assure you, the soldiers who volunteered to fight and die for freedom saw it as a very clear Black and White issue.
Cap wins, I win, and that's the end.
Originally posted by Havoc470
its a comic book.....its not exactly the same america as the real world....and wakanda is fictional....
Wynndar and Nathaniel Grey brought up the aspects of Cap, BP, and the Marvel Universe relating to the "grittiness" of the real world. I simply responded.
Cap still ahead.
Originally posted by Capt.JK
First off, this thread is about Captain America vs Black Panther. Not who has the better country (I STILL say America by a mile) or who would make a better politician. Obviously, BP makes a better politician and POLITICAL leader, because his moral compass is vague enough to be able to make the decisions that affect the regular folks. Cap has no such ability. Perhaps you find it quaint that he sees things as right or wrong, black or white. And perhaps you like BP because he sees so many shades of grey. My response to you is: why does that make him a better hero? For his people or any others? My answer to you is that perhaps if there were more heroes who were not afraid to stand up and say "THIS IS WRONG", then the world, real or imaginary, would not be in the sorry shape it is in today. I say being a hero requires that you see things a little MORE black and white, and when you see something is wrong, you draw your line in the sand and say "NO MORE". THAT is what makes a man a hero. Not this vague wishy-washyness that you seem to extrapolate upon over and over as some extraordinary quality that Panther possesses. Using people to achieve your own ends, whether you think it is justified or not, does not make it right nor you a hero. And Panther seems to suffer from these feelings of grandeur that his goals are more important than everyone else's.
I do appreciate that The Black Panther views the world in the multi faceted perspective he does. That's a realistic view of the world we live in. Nothing is definitively right or wrong anymore. Seeing the world in strictly black and white is ultimately limited and somewhat self defeating. How else can you approach everyone else on a level playing field if you don't understand their views or how they think? A better hero? I don't see Black Panther as a hero at all. He's merely a man in the world trying to survive. He's a global citizen who does what's needed to ensure the lively hood of his people and those around him. A hero for his people? He's the ultimate champion. He's brought them so far on a whole that Wakanda is on the top of the list when it comes to technological ingenuity and craftsmanship. Their scientists are considered the greatest in the world and even out shined STARK Industries when it came to the development of a cure for the Red Zone plague. And yet they retain their TRADITIONAL African culture and ways never forgetting where they came from of the spiritual ties they have to their land and peoples. I wouldn't be surprised if Wakanda was the Marvel Universe equivalent to Japan from reality. Anyway, I see his vague views of morality as a strength. They're malleable and ever growing. He changes with the times yet understands the need to remain close to his spiritual roots. He's almost like a conduit linking himself to the past and yet stretching out to the future. Using people to meet your own ends is what societies have been doing since time began. It's what all society's do to function. That doesn't mean it's right according to the current edicts of morality but it's a fact. No one can make a move forward without breaking the backs of others. If you believe ANYONE is beyond that you're crazy. I don't agree with it but it does happen. Yes, his plans are greater than anyone else's. Again need I remind you that he's the sovereign monarch of one of the wealthiest nations in the Marvel Universe? He's no different than Namor who believes his plans are greater than anyone else's. He's no different than the President of the United States -- who BELIEVES his plans are greater than the opinion of the worlds. He's a leader who bears a burden that Captain America never will. He's got to make choices and live with them political, economical or otherwise. That makes him stronger and a greater leader. Apparently Captain America agrees with that since at one time he wanted T'Challa to lead the Avengers in his absence.
My descriptions of Captain America as a leader where in response to Wynndar's comments about being a leader in times of war. Clearly, Cap is the stronger version. Cap never rushed blindly into ANY situation his government sent him into, and has gone against the directives of the US government on many occasions. At one point he was even removed as Captain America because he refused to follow what he considered were corrupt politicians. Read the current issues of Captain America and the Falcon; he goes against government directives in order to hide a naval version of himself because he knows it will result in the young man's death. And Captain America is one of the more common super-powered speakers in front of the United Nations General Assembly. He does not blindly pursue the interests of the US GOVERNMENT. His life is dedicated to the pursuit of freedom for ALL people, not just America's, because he believes that is what AMERICA and the ideals that form its foundation are what his uniform symbolizes. Cap has stated HUNDREDS of times that it is the uniform that people respond to. That is why he wore a mask; so that it would be AMERICA striking a blow for freedom against the Axis, not a particular man. In the early days, the Axis believed that there was actually an entire army of Captain Americas running around, due to his anonymity. And Cap has tried to maintain his standing in the United Nations for himself and the Avengers so that he could pursue the bad guys no matter where they went, no matter where they struck.
I was commenting on the PAST Captain America. In the days of his conception he did run into everything with shield a blazing and using cowboy theatrics to take on the threat of the " Japs " and the Nazi's. It was part of his character and the appeal that readers had for him during that time. He was the man who fought first took names later and stuck a flag in the ground declaring victory. I'm sure just like Black Panther, Captain America has evolved into a more reserved character as well as one that thinks first before taking on his foes as he did in the early days.
And I do appreciate "gritty" characters; Wolverine has a somewhat skewed code of justice, but he does not hurt the innocent to protect his own interests or goals. DD took up the mantel SPECIFICALLY to pursue the predators who preyed on the weak. Bat Man did it for the SAME reasons. Punisher, although not my favorite character, has adopted the goal in life of wiping out the "bad guys".None of which has anything to do with what this thread was started out to explore: which one would win in a knock-down, drag-out knuckleduster between these two characters. And if you think Panther could defeat CAPTAIN FREAKIN' AMERICA in a one-on-one hand-to-hand scrap, then you have obviously never read anything BUT Panther comics. There is NO WAY BP has the skill to defeat Cap. You have got to be able to see that. I can step back and realistically see when Cap is outmatched, and brother, this ain't even close.
Yes, I believe that Black Panther has all the resources and abilities needed to defeat Captain America. He's one of the better match ups for the star spangled warrior and possibly the only man SMART enough to undertake the task and win. Outmatched? Hardly. NO WAY? Never say never. Black Panther has always been poorly written in the past and under played. The only thing I see is Captain America at T'Challa's feet admitting defeat. " So it has been for countless generations of warrior kings, so it is today, and so it shall be for the law dictates that only the swift, the smart and the strong survive. Noble Champion. Vigilant Protector...BLACK PANTHER! "
😉 I win, holmes.
Originally posted by Capt.JK
*Note to Wynndar: One, my argument wasn't directed at the Thundercats. That was merely a side observation at your choice of SYMBOLS based on the things you had said about Cap and BP.
Secondly, I was not emotional, I was merely trying to make a point without using bad language to stress it as some others do in these threads. Young readers do post here, and I try to be aware of that. I also didn't think it would be very conducive to expound upon the virtues of Cap while using NON Cap-like language.
Thirdly, a nerve has been struck with me as far as my adulation of Captain America, but you had nothing to do with it. My love for comics and Cap started as a young child when my grandfather introduced me to comic books ("funny books" as he called them), and to the Cap comics in particular that he carried with him when he fought and nearly died fighting the Japanese during WW2. Captain America was a HUGE inspiration to the boys in his company, who eagerly looked forward to the mail with the next delivery of packages from home, which invariably always included "funny books", especially Captain America. And in those days, I assure you, the soldiers who volunteered to fight and die for freedom saw it as a very clear Black and White issue.Cap wins, I win, and that's the end.
I respect your adulation for Captain America, especially hearing the story about your grandfather, I had a couple of great uncles in the War also; I have to say, the symbol that Captain America stands for should be respected by all Americans. Nonetheless, this thread is about who i think would win. When I make an argument on this forum I try to be objective and base my opinion on facts. This is especially important since this is a VERSUS forum. Im not trying to argue who i think is cooler, or who envokes the most emotions when I read their comics. Im arguing who would win in a fight. You lose a lot of credibility as a fan boy; when you talk like Captain America would beat Terminus or Galactus...when u stepped back and looked at the fight objectively, u said Cap was the obvious winner, and that is an obviously bias statement. Cap and Panther have already fought with the Panther coming out on top, that is the fact, despite what any of us might think...anyone who says this is a clear win either way r being bias. I think its a close fight, but BP's greater resources and intelligence give him the edge.
Captain America is more of leader than black panther can ever hope to be. Nathaniel's definition of leader is a person who only cares for only one thing. In the real world there are realist and idealist. in this particular debate black panther is the realist while captain america is the idealist.The idealist in this case is more of a leader why he care for everyone no matter who you are on like Black panther who only (as described by Nathaniel Grey as caring for only his people. A leader see everyone in the same color not black or white). POLITICIANS can never be TRUSTED because THEIR intentions can never be TRUSTED. And black panther falls under this description (whether it is for a good course)
To say that Captain america has never addressed the UN is LUDACRIS just goes to show how little you claim to know.
Leading a people in to battle makes you a leader and the more you lead your people into and out again the better you come. Generals are behind the lines where they know that their asses are save. All they can do is find where the enemy forces are and point. It is the warriors in the front who know what is happening and make the appropriate decisions. They are the real power and mussel. (The INFANTRIES) Each and every of those warriors are ready to take the mantle of leader should the time arise.
Word to the wise True leaders are born on the battle fields.
And if you kind this is not true how come President Bush attacked Sen. Karry military record. Or why the media was so interested in whether Pres. Bush finished his training in the Coast Guards?
Captain America is more than a SYMBOL, he is so much more.
Isn't Captain America the equivalent of superman when it comes to life.
With Captain America we all live (INCLUDING THE WAKANDA) but with Black Panther we die while his save his own country.
Now tell me who is the better leader.
Leader forged through the cries of battle (Captain America) or Leader a born out of kind hood (Black Panther).
No one said Captain America didn't speak infront of the U.N. I asked when was the last time he did something of that sort. When was the last time he spoke out to aid another country that wasn't America? And man, I have no idea what you're saying. Please try and be a bit more linear with your comments and ideas.
Exactly WHERE did Panther BEAT Cap? I have seen SEVERAL instances of Cap defeating BP, but not the other way around.
Yep, I'm a fanboy. But not to the degree I can't be objective or see the obvious. BP's abilities as a fighter are not in the same league as Cap's. Marvel.com, whom Nathaniel Grey likes to quote excerpts from, states that Cap's abilities are nearly a THIRD better than BP. A THIRD BETTER! I never said Cap could defeat Galactus or anyone else of such magnitude. But you could not POSSIBLY be comparing Panther to Galactus or Terminus. There is no way I could POSSIBLY be that far out of the loop as far as Panther's powers have progressed. Man, I DO need to catch up on my reading!
Cap addressed the UN on a fairly consistent basis, primarily in his role as leader of the Avengers. Probably the only one who spoke to them more was Tony Stark. And in Black Panther #30, Cap spoke to the Senate Intelligence Committee in Closed Session on BEHALF of the BLACK PANTHER and Wakanda. In that same book, he tells T'Challa that if the US government is involved in Wakanda's problems, then he would "lead that charge myself." Again, your theory that Cap is some dumb blind bullet of the US government is squashed (much like BP's head when it hits Cap's shield, heh heh).
All of this espousal of Panther's abilities as a POLITICIAN are still as irrelevant as they were the first time you brought them up. The thread is about a brawl between the two. And Panther does NOT have what it takes to take down Cap. I don't care how much Priest or whoever else would like to rewrite the Marvel Universe in their imaginations, the fact is Cap is the pinnacle of the human body and the ultimate fighting machine in the Marvel Universe. NOT Black Panther. Sorry guys. Whine all you want. It ain't gonna happen.
You can write 30 more pages about T'Challa's virtues as a POLITICIAN, and I'll say "Whooptedoo". Cap is NOT a politician, he is a battlefield leader. He protects the innocent and beats up the bad guys. All in the name of freedom. If you have or ever have children, you will quickly begin to understand that a little more "black and white" and a little less "shades of grey" is a GOOD thing. I want my child to be a GOOD person. No shades of grey. I want him to be treated with love, dignity, and respect. No shades of grey. I want him to grow up and live in a SAFE world. No shades of grey. Captain America symbolizes the ideals of a free society. POLITICIANS often fall short, but the ideal remains the same. And there is no way some 2-bit dictator is EVER going to defeat that.
Cap wins. Again. And again. And again. And again...
Originally posted by Capt.JK
Yep, I'm a fanboy. But not to the degree I can't be objective or see the obvious. BP's abilities as a fighter are not in the same league as Cap's. Marvel.com, whom Nathaniel Grey likes to quote excerpts from, states that Cap's abilities are nearly a THIRD better than BP. A THIRD BETTER! I never said Cap could defeat Galactus or anyone else of such magnitude. But you could not POSSIBLY be comparing Panther to Galactus or Terminus. There is no way I could POSSIBLY be that far out of the loop as far as Panther's powers have progressed. Man, I DO need to catch up on my reading!
Objective? You objective? The only time you would ever possibly admit the defeat of Captain America is if it were at the hands of the Living Tribunal and even then you'd do it with a reluctance. Black Panther not in Captain America's league? I beg to differ. Cap is in the same melting pot as Black Panther, Daredevil, The Punisher, Black Widow, Elektra, Iron Fist and Falcon. All extraordinary humans who in the end posses all the same vulnerabilities and fallibility's as one another. None of them are beyond the state of the human condition regardless of any arguments you or I push. That means they're all subject to the same whims and their battles aren't just determined by who's stronger, faster or who has the better fighting ability...but who's SMARTER. And as I've said before Black Panther is ultimately the most intelligent and cunning fighter of the lot. His mind is far more complex and intricate than Captain America's is and he'd use that intelligence to help him utilize every single one of Captain America's flaws.
One third. Yes, I've been sitting here thinking about that one third calculation that you'd made. And I noticed something. While Captain America puts Black Panther at a ONE THIRD disadvantage in fighting skill, Black Panther puts Captain America at a one third Intelligence disadvantage. And intelligence is a very broad subject considering that T'Challa is not only " book smarter " as we've established in the past but he's also a brilliant tactician and warrior. More so than Captain America in my opinion since it's not likely that a warrior king in a long line of warrior king's wouldn't understand the preliminaries of war and understand strategies of battle whether they're hand to hand or otherwise. I am by no means denouncing the battle savvy abilities of Captain America nor am I saying that his skills aren't widely regarded. But if he is in fact ONE THIRD less intelligent than Black Panther then objectively that would mean his ability to cope with new problems and to use the power of reasoning and inference effectively are less keen than those of Black Panther's. At least by one third. And also Black Panther's energy projection abilities give him an advantage since he's rated one third greater in that department than Captain America. That's a GREATER advantage on Black Panther's part!
As far as I see it Captain America and Black Panther are still only human
and are subject to the same regulations and limitations that come with being homosapien. They share the same strengths, weaknesses and undoubtedly the same passions that drive them each to be what it is they are today. Not in the same league? You're crazy and you need to stop smokin' dat ganja homie. They're in the EXACT same league. Black Panther is THE most qualified person to stand toe to toe with Captain America. Only the swift the smart and the strong survive...and Black Panther through all of his political turmoils and physical ones has proven to me that HE is a survivor.
Black Panther will win this..and after he does he'll shake Caps hand and offer to buy him a tall glass of milk and a new hair cut.
Originally posted by Nathaniel Greyhe'll shake Caps hand and offer to buy him a tall glass of milk and a new hair cut. [/B]
This was a funny visual.
Yes, I am objective about Cap. In the thread Cap vs Juggernaut, I admitted in my FIRST response that Cap was outmatched. This scenario is not the case. BP is no Juggernaut. And if you think Cap possesses the same frailties as a normal human, I suggest you step away from the keyboard and read a few Cap comics before you continue. Cap has mopped the floor with Falcon. Friend or not, he is NOT in Cap's league. And Cap beat DD in only 4 panels.
Now back to the subject. You are correct in your assertions that BP is roughly one third smarter than Cap. Unfortunately, I think that merely denotes a bookish intelligence, which does BP no good on the battlefield. While BP is superior intellectually, to call Cap ignorant to the point of not being able to function against Panther implies that BP is TOTALLY outmatched by Cap in the fighting skills department. By this string of logic, if BP's intelligence should give him a hefty one third advantage over Cap, then Cap's one third advantage in fighting skills should be more than enough to totally and quickly overwhelm BP and have him squealing like a black cat with a wrung neck in mere seconds.
But we know this to be untrue. Cap's fighting advantage is quite strong, but not overwhelming. We both agree that it would be a good fight. Therefore, BP's brain power is not mathematically superior enough to sway the battle decidedly in his favor either. So now we have to look at the characters themselves:
While BP splits his time amongst many areas: King of Wakanda; world financier; super-vague-hero; building better fingernails so that he can penetrate Cap's shield (talk about a guy in need of a hobby), Cap spends his time fighting, training to fight, learning how to be a better field commander, and remembering past battles and fallen comrades. He had someone else design his shield (Dr. Myron McLaine) so that he could dedicate and devote himself to what he does. Fight for liberty and freedom (another guy in need of a hobby). BP can't compete with that kind of focus. Cap has no other focus other than being Captain America.
Your energy projection argument is a moot point. Cap has none because he just doesn't need it. BP's is so low as to be irrelevant. Cap would no more be bothered by BP throwing his little energy daggers or whatever than he was charging full-on into a Nazi machinegun nest or taking a direct hit from a Kree Battleship. He just kept on charging.
This would be a good fight, but Cap WOULD WIN. And then he would tell Panther to get a new outfit. Drop all that pimp gold stuff and that cat suit, and get something more MANLY. Maybe a nice plaid.
Cap wins. But you knew I was going to say that.