WindDancer> Ah, yes. I certainly do acknowledge philosophy for what it does – as I said, the human mind is a wondrous thing, our self-awareness, self-conscience etc if amazing.
Being unable to measure God is not the same as being unable to measure experience. What leads me to experience are events, these are measurable – when I learn/experience something my brain reacts and that can be measured.
“You're not only one left with the question "Why?" that's what we as humans have been asking for thousands of years.”
Ah, yes… That most important of all questions.
“I can't just say "Oh well, I'm just a human that evolved and I will die". No, that's not what life is about.”
But can you accept that perhaps THAT is the answer: That we’re born, live and die – and that is it? That there IS no meaning to our lives, no fate and no destiny? That’s where I live – and I live a full life. I will not believe in divinities because I fear death, or get wide-eyed with a sense of lack of purpose with life.
“But we can't just settle for what has been discovered so far. There is more!”
Certainly. Physics – my branch of science – has its unsolved mysteries and puzzles. So does evolution. But were are – however – at a point, where pieces have formed part of a puzzle. Suddenly saying the atom does NOT consist of protons and neutrons won’t happen. This fact has been tested with amazing detail.
“That's why we have curiosity. We want to find answers, is part of our nature to be inquisitive!” YES! But we must accept that maybe not ALL our questions have answers that give MEANING.
“I'm the type of person that believes that science isn't EVERYTHING!”
Neither have I. Science can NOT give you a meaning with life, it is not about truth, but about fact. Science tries to explain how nature works – not WHY it works. That’s where we call the philosophers.
“I keep thinking that that's exactly what God wants us to do!”
You’re displaying a remarkable amount of insight – and perhaps that is where your religious faith stems from. I think most intelligent people at least once in their lives stop and wonder “What’s the meaning of life? Really?” To some my world-view is not ENOUGH.
“I hope you understand that's how I see things. For me curiosity didn't kill the cat......it actually gave the cat a purpose to look for things.” Yes, I think I do actually. To you God is not what churches and religions preaches. To you – as I read it – God is “answers” in an abstract sense, higher truths and the gate-keeper of the human mind.
A very poetic view – if I understand you correctly, and one I’d wish more religious people adhered to.
“Does that mean you're quite satisfied with the knowledge found so far?”
No 🙂 We still need quantum-gravity! What happened to the Incas (or was it the Aztecs)? There are millions of unanswered questions. But to ME, God is nowhere to be seen in those searches.
“Oh boy, this is going to be fun!”
🙂
I’ll stay tuned.
Morningstar> “it doesnt matter any more whether all boys are circumcised or not. If you read the NT, Jews and Gentiles are all alike in the eyes of God, whether the boys are circumised or not.”
And where is this being ”said”?
Does this mean what is said in the Bible may be changed?
FE> No, you have NOT answered all my questions. You’re trying your best not to, tossing the same ”God will give you answers”, ”God gives me answers” when I am asking you questions! I am not asking you how you GET your answers, I want to know what the answers to my questions are.
Answer each of them, please. Here, now, in a SHORTHER version:
How do you KNOW the Bible is the truth? Because God personally told you so?
How do you REALLY know it IS the word of God?
”People make mistakes, do wrong, God does not, we have the choice, free will.”
So when Abraham married his sister with God’s blessing, God blessed an incestuous marriage and that is not wrong?
Try to think, please. Try to IMAGINE if it was NOT a choice to be homosexual. Can you do that?
You’re good at imagining stuff – so TRY to imagine that homosexuality is NOT a choice. Would it then be a sin?
Let’s see:
113: “i believe the bible is fiction.”
Fiery Eyes: ” no explanation? Lol” (Why the laughing out loud?)
Finti> ” he said he did believe, explanation enough”
Fiery Eyes> ” wasn't asking you finti, Mr. rude butt.” (Why the Mr. rude butt?)
Finti>” SO?, Mrs Pristine”
Fiery Eyes> ” Yeah i know and thats suppose to mean something to me? Lol” (Why the laughing out loud?)
Frankly, FE, you’re not only being disrespectful towards your fellow forumites – you claim the right to ”Rude-butt” Finti, but when he replies in the same manner, you get insulted. That’s called hypocrisy.
Originally posted by finti
maybe you should consider your use of the word "hun" all the time, to me it shows a degrading attitude towards other poster
🙂 Well if it offends you, I'm sorry but i mean it in a very nice way. I play in a spades league and i'm a TD & in adm, i'm just use to always saying it. I am not a hypocrit at all. 🙂
FE> No, you have NOT answered all my questions. You’re trying your best not to, tossing the same ”God will give you answers”, ”God gives me answers” when I am asking you questions! I am not asking you how you GET your answers, I want to know what the answers to my questions are.
Answer each of them, please. Here, now, in a SHORTHER version:
How do you KNOW the Bible is the truth? Because God personally told you so? Yes, he will lead you & direct you, i have answered you that
How do you REALLY know it IS the word of God? cuz he tells you.
”People make mistakes, do wrong, God does not, we have the choice, free will.”
So when Abraham married his sister with God’s blessing, God blessed an incestuous marriage and that is not wrong? where r u getting this at? when he told the King it was HIS sister?
Try to think, please. Try to IMAGINE if it was NOT a choice to be homosexual. Can you do that?
You’re good at imagining stuff – so TRY to imagine that homosexuality is NOT a choice. Would it then be a sin?
Yes it would be cuz the Bible says so.
Originally posted by The Omega
Let’s see:113: “i believe the bible is fiction.”
Fiery Eyes: ” no explanation? Lol” (Why the laughing out loud?)
Finti> ” he said he did believe, explanation enough”
Fiery Eyes> ” wasn't asking you finti, Mr. rude butt.” (Why the Mr. rude butt?)
Finti>” SO?, Mrs Pristine”
Fiery Eyes> ” Yeah i know and thats suppose to mean something to me? Lol” (Why the laughing out loud?)Frankly, FE, you’re not only being disrespectful towards your fellow forumites – you claim the right to ”Rude-butt” Finti, but when he replies in the same manner, you get insulted. That’s called hypocrisy.
I guess you're taking my lol as sarcastic? cuz thats not how i meant it. You're taking what i was sayng out of context.
[Note]Before posting this article I would like to inform you all that there is actually two articles from Newsweek issue. Both articles report the current situation of sacred relics found and scattered in the deserts of the Middle East. First and foremost, I've taken the liberty of posting this article only for informational purposes (not to advertise Newsweek Magazine). In no way I have contribute to the article and I'm only posting this to help KMC board members be aware of current events happening in Iraq regarding ancient Biblical relics. If you have further questions I advice you contact Newsmagazine regarding this reports. Thank You.
The followin article is from the issue of Newsweek Magazine publicized August 30, 2004
Title: Unearthing The Bible
By: Melinda Liu and Christopher Dickey
Intro: Sacred relics lie scattered beneath the deserts of the Middle East. In Iraq, our religious history is being obliterated; in Israel, it's a question of faith.
What there was in the begining, in the world of the Bible, is what there was in the land now called Iraq. There is nothing left of the Garden of Eden, no artifact at the confluence of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers where myth has placed the Temptaion and the Fall. But the great cities and empires from the Books of Genesis and Kings and Chronicles have left their traces: Ur, where Abraham was born; rapacious Assyria with its capital, Nineveh, and Babylon, where the ancient Israelites were carried into captivity and where, as the Psalm tells us, they wept when they remenber Zion.
Beneath the sands and silt of Iraq, for millenium after millenium, truths have waited to be pieced together about these legendary places that loom so large in the faith and culture of the Jews, Christians and Muslims. "This is where the first writing began, where the first ideas of law and religions were written down," says archeologist Mc Guire Gibson at the University of Chicago. Golden calves, winged bulls and rampart lions have emerged from the dust, helping explain the consequential journey from the opulent polytheism of the Promised Land. It is a story that has emerged slowly, painstakingly, over the past century from some 10,000 scientific excavations in Iraq and innumerable ones in Israel.
Across the Middle East, the quest for sacred artifacts and for the lessons they can teach us is taking on new urgency. Archeology is growing more sophisticated; the technology of dating relics is improving. Driven by curiousity and faith, ambition and some times avarice, diggers yearn to unearth the Bible, to try to solve its mysteries and reveal its secrets. It is the most challenging of archeological obstacle courses. In Iraq, the fall of Saddam Hussein raised hopes that new money and new freedoms would help open up many sites to more scientific investigations and restoration. But the ravages of war are clouding that prospect. In Israel, a rising tide of funds for Bible-related projects is flowing into Jerusalem and its environs, but archeology is an overlooked casualty of the intifada: the violence has cut down the number of active digs.
Indeed the hunt for treasure and truth is growing ever wilder and more worrisome. In the lawless deserts of occupied Iraq, history- both the Bible and of the larger ancient world that scriptures only hint at - is being pillaged on an epic scale for a black market where irreplaceable fragments of our past are sold to sophisticated collectors, or just to the higher bidder on eBay. "It's wiping out a whole field of knowledge, of social and cultural history," says Gibson, "just so somebody can have a beautiful object sitting on the mantelpiece".
In Israel, much care is taken to preserve the slightest trace that might reveal literal truths about the mystical teachings of scripture. The tragedy of Iraq is that contexts are disappearing as fast as the objects themselves. Archeologists are like crime-scene investigators trying to discover how whole societies lived and died. And to do that they need to know when, how - and especially where - each of the clue is found. "You take an object out of context, you are losing about 80% of the information it can give you," says Gibson. Near Nasiriya, in southern Iraq, a 2,700-year-old Summerian site known as Um Al Agareb, (mother of Scorpions), is crisscrossed by the tire tracks of looters trucks. Holes are everywhere. "It makes you cry", says John Russell, an American archeologist who advised the Iraq Culture Ministry until June. The thieves no longer wait for the cover, or even the cool, of the night. One day last week a portly 35-year-old who said his name was Hassan clawed the earth with a pickax and shovel in 120-degree heat. When asked why?, his answer was simple. "We are poor people", he said. According to Donny George, director of the Iraqi National Museum, laborers like Hassan sell the pieces they find for as little as $10 to $15. Those same artifacts may be sold for thousans, even tens of thousands of dollars in Europe, the United States, or Japan.
The looting of the museum itself last year created an international sensations as American troops were accusing of standing by while more than 100,000 artifacts were stolen. Those numbers were inflated. But more than 8,000 pieces are still missing, of which almost 30 are considered of unique historical and artistic importance. Col. Matthew Bogdanos, a Marine reservist and Manhattan assistant district attorney who led the investigation of the museum theft last year, believes that most of this hoard is being held off the market by organized gangs waiting for prices to rise. In New York, Middle East scholar and author Joseph Braude pleaded guilty this month to smuggling three delicately etched ancient seals into the United States. He said he paid only $200 for three of them together. The cylinders were marked by the letters IM, for Iraqi Museum, as well as with the serial numbers from the collection. Braude's lawyer, Benjamin Brafman, tells NEWSWEEK his client had no partin any looting.
Treasures stolen from the ground can't be traced easily-if at all. "If you are a bad guy [looting a dig], your chances of being caught go way, way down" says Bogdanos. Artifacts can make their way to high-end boutiques, along with papers from unscrupulous dealers "proving" they were found a century ago.
On the ground in Iraq the pillaging is all but impossible to stop. Earlier this month American journalist Micah Garen was abducted while working on a documentary about efforts to protect Iraq's treasures. His captors have threatened to behead him. With the future of Iraq past is not really a priority of the occupation troops or the newly sovereign regime of Prime Minister Ayad Allawi. "The reality is, we put Iraqi guards on many of the most important sites with little training, and at first they weren't armed", says Bogdanos. "Four men pull up in a pick up truck, and they are armed: What are you going to do? Is the guard going to lay down his life for antiquities? Do you put an American platoon on every site?"
As it is, the Coalition military sometimes makes matters worse. When Columbia University professor Zainab Bahrani visited the site of Babylon late last spring, she was stunned to see an American military base spreading across the hallowed ground. Workers scooped up earth potentially rich in relics to make blast walls. Bulldozers carved out helicopter landing pads, and the vibrations from the vibrations from the choppers themselves did still more damage. Portions of the two ancient temples have collapsed and Nebuchadnezzar II's palace is threatened. "We're very worried about the palace walls", said Bahrani. "They're made of brick. They rattle when the helicopters take off".
For believers contemplating the rise of the looters, lines from the Revelation of Saint John the Divine may come to mind: "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen". For Archeologist, for the faithful, for all of us, the loss of this past impoverishes the future. Ripping artifacts from their contexts takes away the last chance we have to know those civilizations-from the word of Abraham to that of Nebuchadnezzar- that gave us our own.
© 2004 Newsweek, Inc.
er. Ill just throw my opinion in the mix. I've always preferred science over religion, mainly cos in my opinion, religion was simply created to easily explain the meaning of life and why we are here, what happens after death etc. It puts everyone at ease, the scientific reason for such things is somewhat harsh and hard to accept. Thats my reckoning anyway.
Originally posted by The Omega
WindDancer> Ah, yes. I certainly do acknowledge philosophy for what it does – as I said, the human mind is a wondrous thing, our self-awareness, self-conscience etc if amazing.
That's right, is all about the secrets the mind possess.
Originally posted by The Omega
But can you accept that perhaps THAT is the answer: That we’re born, live and die – and that is it? That there IS no meaning to our lives, no fate and no destiny? That’s where I live – and I live a full life. I will not believe in divinities because I fear death, or get wide-eyed with a sense of lack of purpose with life.
Yes, I don't deny that. I see it as a posibility. And is not about fearing death and hoping God will rescue me. Is about the mysteries of the death that keep me wondering......what does happen to our minds after we die? Do they really stop working? like some clock?
Originally posted by The Omega
Certainly. Physics – my branch of science – has its unsolved mysteries and puzzles. So does evolution. But were are – however – at a point, where pieces have formed part of a puzzle. Suddenly saying the atom does NOT consist of protons and neutrons won’t happen. This fact has been tested with amazing detail.
I'm glad that's the case. I'm glad that science is putting the pieces together. And as long as scientist do it for the sake of academic discoveries they have my full support. But if their knowledge is used to harm humanity and not help it, I will defenetly opposed it! No matter how great the discovery might be.
Originally posted by The Omega
YES! But we must accept that maybe not ALL our questions have answers that give MEANING.
Yes, I agree with must keep it rational and reasonable. That's why I keep asking the hard questions. Because the greater the question......the greater the answer......Does God exists? Let's keep pondering until we get the answer. That's my opinion.
Originally posted by The Omega
Neither have I. Science can NOT give you a meaning with life, it is not about truth, but about fact. Science tries to explain how nature works – not WHY it works. That’s where we call the philosophers.
And thank goodness we have Philosophers on our Planet. 😉
Originally posted by The Omega
You’re displaying a remarkable amount of insight – and perhaps that is where your religious faith stems from. I think most intelligent people at least once in their lives stop and wonder “What’s the meaning of life? Really?” To some my world-view is not ENOUGH.
What can I say? I'm a sucker for philosophical ideas. Your views are absolute, you have the facts from Science to back you up. I on the other hand have to relly on what I've learn from philosophy. Which btw-is a brainbuster of the mind. Ouch!
Originally posted by The Omega
Yes, I think I do actually. To you God is not what churches and religions preaches. To you – as I read it – God is “answers” in an abstract sense, higher truths and the gate-keeper of the human mind.
A very poetic view – if I understand you correctly, and one I’d wish more religious people adhered to.
Bullseye! That's exactly what I think God is! The "answers" to our realities, and experiences. My path is not a religious one.....it is simply a Philosophical one.
Originally posted by The Omega
No 🙂 We still need quantum-gravity! What happened to the Incas (or was it the Aztecs)? There are millions of unanswered questions. But to ME, God is nowhere to be seen in those searches.
The Incas is whole different story.....but their knowledge is sooooo intriguing! I, myself hope one day to visit Machu Pichu, not for touring purposes, but for more like academic research. So yes, We still got a lot of things to discover!
Originally posted by The Omega
I’ll stay tuned.
I'm Glad you are. The article has been posted. I hope you, and everyone else enjoyed it and find it quite interesting. I will post the second article soon......for right now I have to go back to my project. Time is never enough.
ok everyone back off and leave FE alone. I know im in no position to tell u guys what to do but if anyone wants to chuck a hissy fit, do it over a PM rather than degrade someone in front of everyone else. Everyone be nice - thats an order 😛
Morningstar> “it doesnt matter any more whether all boys are circumcised or not. If you read the NT, Jews and Gentiles are all alike in the eyes of God, whether the boys are circumised or not.”
And where is this being ”said”?
Does this mean what is said in the Bible may be changed
I have a very long and detailed explanation 4 that and i would love to share it with you but i am so tired my brain is about to fall out and im studying for exams so can i answer that sometime when im a little more awake? I dont think my fingers can type for much longer. 🙄 But basically no it doesnt mean that the Bible can be changed - but all boys (circumised or not) are equal in the eyes of the Lord and that changed the night Jesus died on the cross. Ask any youth leader or person who goes to church or is a Christian.
Originally posted by Morningstarnope , dont know you 😛
Just randomly . .. . . if u count me as someone you know - which you prob dont but anyway 🙄 am i a hypocrit? Just curious.
i was refering to christians i know in my personal life . i know quite a lot and sadly very few of them are not hypocrits .
Originally posted by finti
ok the abriviation of TD here is of a military matter and means Tank Destroyer it is also country code for Chad on the internet so what is you abbreviation ofr it?
😄 sorry i just assume everyone plays spades LOL (my favorite game on the internet) it's Tournament Director and Administration 🙂