Atheists believing that the universe has always existed is no different than theists believing that God has always existed. If one is subject to efficient causation, so is the other.
I disagree, it is different.
You would need all power (omnipotence) to have always existed. The universe requires a point of creation. Everything and anything short of omnipotence needs a starting point.
Originally posted by clickclick
What would sustain ever existence without omnipotence?What would allow ever existence without omnipotence?
Unlike living systems as in the case of a living God, non-living systems as in the case of the universe, are not sustained on negative entropy. In other words, living things require an unlimited supply of energy to be sustained indefinitely but non-living systems do not.
Unlike living systems as in the case of a living God, non-living systems as in the case of the universe, are not sustained on negative entropy. In other words, living things require an unlimited supply of energy to be sustained indefinitely but non-living systems do not.
How does the universe escape the classification of "a living system" ?
Matter and energy would require creation on some level for it to be existing. That energy would never exist unless it had an unlimited supply (omnipotence)
Even the most prevelant scientific theory deals with the creation of the universe.
Non-living systems not having an unlimited supply of energy only strengthens my point. It would require energy for the its creation and can could not possibly have always existed
Energy is required for existence. Be it for creation and/or sustainment.
Nothingness without omnipotence.
Why is a "good omnipotent God" ridiculousyou just answered your own question there
You would need all power (omnipotence) to have always existed. The universe requires a point of creation. Everything and anything short of omnipotence needs a starting point.just the same with omnipotence it needs a strting point
you just answered your own question there
The question you quoted wasnt mine.
just the same with omnipotence it needs a strting point
Omnipotence is the only exception because omnipotence = unlimited power. Unlimited power allows for no beginning. Omnipotence has no beginning or end, no limit in any sense.
If god were truly omnipotent in an absolute and unlimited sense, then god could be capable of both existing and not existing at the same time, meaning that every form of theism and every form of atheism would be equally justified at all times simultaneously.
Those two things cancel each other out and mean nothing.
There is no single or obvious way to understand what omnipotence means, whatever definition is given, it will either contradict with other characteristics or it will be reduced to meaninglessness.
I dont think that omnipotence is easy to understand. What im saying though is that omnipotence is capable of anything. The problem in your previous statement was that you essentially described nothing.
Simultaneously walking but not walking.
Simultaneously talking but not talking
Those kinds of things mean absolutely nothing therefore it cant contradict anything.
Any coherent understanding of god and god’ s nature requires placing limits of some sort upon his/her/it alleged omnipotence. The first is that of logic: god’s omnipotence means that god can do anything that is logically possible to do. God cannot make 2 + 2 equal 5, god cannot both simultaneously exist and not exist and god cannot lie and tell the truth at the same time.
Other limitations have been found to be necessary because of the many other attributes which people tend to assume that god has. Without these limitations, their definition of god would be logically contradictory and it would be reasonable to conclude that god, as defined, cannot exist.
I tell you why a good omniptent God is ridicoulus.
If God was good why do Humans have to suffer why is Earth not perfect why are we not perfect why do people kill other people why do kids die just because they were born in the wrong region of the earth. If god was good why ddo people die. That just says God is not good if he is omnipotent.
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If he is omnipotent he is a sick ****
If he is Good he is not powerful enough to give everyone a Good life.
or he doesn't exist
there are more possibilities but a loving and caring good omnipotent God is just not reasonable.
Any coherent understanding of god and god’ s nature requires placing limits of some sort upon his/her/it alleged omnipotence. The first is that of logic: god’s omnipotence means that god can do anything that is logically possible to do. God cannot make 2 + 2 equal 5, god cannot both simultaneously exist and not exist and god cannot lie and tell the truth at the same time.
Other limitations have been found to be necessary because of the many other attributes which people tend to assume that god has. Without these limitations, their definition of god would be logically contradictory and it would be reasonable to conclude that god, as defined, cannot exist.
I understand what it is you are saying but your argument is flawed. All we have is our human logic in trying to understand it. 2 + 2= 5 is quite simple, if logic was changed. Existing and not existing however creates an obvious problem. That problem being that such two things at the same time mean nothing. The concept itself doesnt truly exist because it is describing nothing. It cant be a limitation if it is nothing.