Batman vs Spiderman

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
Then why would he be in the superhuman range of fighting skill then, why wouldn't he be in normal humans.

He has "skill", in his fighting although it isn't formal.

Who said he was in the "superhuman" range of Fighting Skill? The fact that it's a four means little except that it's better than a '3' and not as good as a '5'. Marvel has decided to not only be vague with its ranking system, but have also decided to refrain from explaining it. We don't know exactly how good a '4' is - we only know a '4' is 'superhuman' in Strength because Cap is a '3' and he's the best a non-superhuman can get. Hawkeye is a '4' in Fighting Skill and he's just a human.

All of Spidey's 'skill' is experience-based only - he probably has no technique whatsoever, and based solely on the character himself, I'd say that's an accurate statement. When Spider-Man throws a punch, he only swings his fist; there's no technique behind it. Were Spidey formally trained, and I have absolutely no idea why he hasn't yet (probably because he used to be almost strictly street level), he'd be that much more effective. Crazily so. As it stands, his ability to fight rests solely on the 'shoulders' of his powers.

If a person had peter's personality and fought him, with similar powers, they'd lose, don't you think so?

You mean if they were basically Peter himself without the experience? Yes, they would lose. What's the point, however? You're saying that Peter's experience gives him a certain amount of skill, and I agree with that, but I'm also saying that what his experience enables him to do still pales in comparison to highly trained, highly skilled individuals.

Don't forget that someone like Daredevil, for instance, has all of his training and knowledge, yet also has just as much experience as Spidey. If a certain amount of experience equals a certain amount of skill, then Daredevil is effectively twice the fighter Spider-Man is. Spidey just isn't that superb of a fighter.

Batman is the better fighter. How much that fact actually effects this fight is debateable, but the fact that he's, literally, technically the better hand-to-hand combatant cannot be argued against. If we made Batman as strong and as fast as Peter, he'd simply slap Peter down.

I'm glad you agree with the " not winning if you are physically inferior, by a HUGE amount".

Well, it's still possible. The analogy of Batman against Spider-Man being like a normal human being against a bear, barehanded, is still a very bad one. All of Batman's training and knowledge of anatomy and what hurts a person badly still applies to Spidey. If Spider-Man gets his ears boxed, it'll hurt. If Batman applies a pressure point, it'll hurt. If Batman manages to get correct leverage, he can snap Peter's joints (Jigsaw has done this to the current, strengthened Spidey and he's not nearly as skilled as Batman nor quite as strong). Of course, all of this means he has to be able to hit Spidey, first, but his skill is not completely negated. He'd just have to be extra careful and extra sneaky about it, if not completely underhanded.

To be extra picky, Spider-Man doesn't weigh half a ton like a bear does, nor does he have razor sharp teeth and 5-inch claws, which are the really big reasons why humans would have an incredibly difficult task in fighting a bear barehanded.

You know batman would get his ass kicked in a fight when the fanboys have to break out the "prep time" argument.

Spiderman is not formally trained, but has adapted his style of combat around his powers. Formal training would be better, but he's not stumbling blindly in a fight. If he had the same physical attributes as Batman, of course he'd get beat up. But he doesn't... His natural abilities (+webs, even though they're organic and wicked ritahded now) are pleny to take Batman by himself...

And to be a smart ass, getting punched by a bear without claws would hurt like a b!tch anyway.

Originally posted by Dizzle
Spiderman is not formally trained, but has adapted his style of combat around his powers. Formal training would be better, but he's not stumbling blindly in a fight. If he had the same physical attributes as Batman, of course he'd get beat up. But he doesn't... His natural abilities (+webs, even though they're organic and wicked ritahded now) are pleny to take Batman by himself...

I didn't say he was stumbling around blindly nor did I say his powers weren't enough to make up for it. I, in fact, stated that's exactly how he operates; his ability to fight is solely based on his powers. This came up mostly because Cordera was talking about how Kitty Pryde, for example, being of higher skill was laughable.

Originally posted by Dizzle
And to be a smart ass, getting punched by a bear without claws would hurt like a b!tch anyway.

Seriously.

You'd have a better chance at getting up from it, though, considering a bear doesn't know about technique and proper strike penetration either. That, and a bear can't really punch so much as swing its arm at you. Trust me, a clawless bear that weighs 165 lbs. without claws or the ability to open its mouth is far, far easier to deal with.

Originally posted by Wanderer259
If we made Batman as strong and as fast as Peter, he'd simply slap Peter down.

Originally posted by Wanderer259
To be extra picky, Spider-Man doesn't weigh half a ton like a bear does, nor does he have razor sharp teeth and 5-inch claws, which are the really big reasons why humans would have an incredibly difficult task in fighting a bear barehanded.

Originally posted by Xmarksthespot
Moot point. Because he isn't anywhere near as strong or fast as Peter.

Again, this whole talk about Spidey lacking skill had more to do with Cordera's arguments against Marvel's stats. I, of course, am aware that Batman isn't as strong or as fast as Peter. This

It isn't a moot point, because it wasn't a point to begin with.

To be extra picky, a bear isn't as strong, fast, agile, reflexive, precognitive or intelligent as a Spider-Man, nor can it adhere to surfaces or shoot webbing... which is why a Batman would have an incredibly difficult task fighting a Spider-Man barehanded

Again, I wasn't arguing that; I only said it's a bad analogy. You just kind of proved my point.

So let me get this straight, I spidey back to his non-organic webbing, 10 ton strength and not talking to insects? Funny how it's ok to use current spidey but hell if Bats gets his motherbox even though he's been carrying it a couple of years now. Not that it matters, 'cause Bats wins anyway.

Originally posted by Wanderer259
Who said he was in the "superhuman" range of Fighting Skill? The fact that it's a four means little except that it's better than a '3' and not as good as a '5'. Marvel has decided to not only be vague with its ranking system, but have also decided to refrain from explaining it. We don't know exactly how good a '4' is - we only know a '4' is 'superhuman' in Strength because Cap is a '3' and he's the best a non-superhuman can get. Hawkeye is a '4' in Fighting Skill and he's just a human.

Originally posted by Wanderer259
All of Spidey's 'skill' is experience-based only - he probably has no technique whatsoever, and based solely on the character himself, I'd say that's an accurate statement. When Spider-Man throws a punch, he only swings his fist; there's no technique behind it. Were Spidey formally trained, and I have absolutely no idea why he hasn't yet (probably because he used to be almost strictly street level), he'd be that much more effective. Crazily so. As it stands, his ability to fight rests solely on the 'shoulders' of his powers.

Originally posted by Wanderer259
You mean if they were basically Peter himself without the experience? Yes, they would lose. What's the point, however? You're saying that Peter's experience gives him a certain amount of skill, and I agree with that, but I'm also saying that what his experience enables him to do still pales in comparison to highly trained, highly skilled individuals.

Originally posted by jinzin
these are comic book suerheroes who perform feats FARRRRRR outside the limits of what an olympic level athlete could even dream....you don't seem to grasp that yet.

You don't seem to grasp that you are wrong plain and simple, and you still haven't answered my question.

Originally posted by Wanderer259
Who said he was in the "superhuman" range of Fighting Skill? The fact that it's a four means little except that it's better than a '3' and not as good as a '5'. Marvel has decided to not only be vague with its ranking system, but have also decided to refrain from explaining it. We don't know exactly how good a '4' is - we only know a '4' is 'superhuman' in Strength because Cap is a '3' and he's the best a non-superhuman can get. Hawkeye is a '4' in Fighting Skill and he's just a human.

We are agreeing here, I just wanted to point out the vagueness of the system there, in terms of speed.

Originally posted by Wanderer259
All of Spidey's 'skill' is experience-based only - he probably has no technique whatsoever, and based solely on the character himself, I'd say that's an accurate statement. When Spider-Man throws a punch, he only swings his fist; there's no technique behind it. Were Spidey formally trained, and I have absolutely no idea why he hasn't yet (probably because he used to be almost strictly street level), he'd be that much more effective. Crazily so. As it stands, his ability to fight rests solely on the 'shoulders' of his powers.

This is where I kind of have to disagree.

You say technique, ANYTHING is a technique, as styles were made to counter each other at a given time, there is not a "style" that is specifically made to counter spiderman's, if you see what i mean.

I mean if spiderman took all of these "classes", and got these styles down, would he use them persay. Why would he need them, if what he does, is better than martail arts.

Martial arts is experience. To know when to hit and not to, to dodge instinctively, that is what peter does.

I do understand that he isn't as "trained' as guys like cap though.

Originally posted by Wanderer259
You mean if they were basically Peter himself without the experience? Yes, they would lose. What's the point, however? You're saying that Peter's experience gives him a certain amount of skill, and I agree with that, but I'm also saying that what his experience enables him to do still pales in comparison to highly trained, highly skilled individuals.

NOno, if they fought "like peter."

Once you have the basic principles of fighting down, and you know where and where not to hit, then you can "wing it", I don't fight with all the "flashiness", but it still gets the job done.

To fight like peter is to fight "like him", most of peters opponents fight with no mercy,and are ruthless. Peter has sooo much more potential, as pointed out by the other thread.

If peter were to let go of his morals and "fight", imagine how much more deadlier he'd be...

Originally posted by Wanderer259
Don't forget that someone like Daredevil, for instance, has all of his training and knowledge, yet also has just as much experience as Spidey. If a certain amount of experience equals a certain amount of skill, then Daredevil is effectively twice the fighter Spider-Man is. Spidey just isn't that superb of a fighter.

Define effective, I say proificent.

You are probably going to say that he has been trained to hit more effectively, etc. Than spiderman.

I say this, to hit some one in a pressure point and subdue them, vs knocking their head right off, I think knocking the head off is more effective, but not as proificient.

Originally posted by Wanderer259
Batman is the better fighter. How much that fact actually effects this fight is debateable, but the fact that he's, literally, technically the better hand-to-hand combatant cannot be argued against. If we made Batman as strong and as fast as Peter, he'd simply slap Peter down.

Understood, now like I said, peters powers have been used BY him, so he knows his own body.

To give someone faster movement and more strength does not equal control, and as you know, power without control is near useless.

Originally posted by Wanderer259
Well, it's still possible. The analogy of Batman against Spider-Man being like a normal human being against a bear, barehanded, is still a very bad one. All of Batman's training and knowledge of anatomy and what hurts a person badly still applies to Spidey. If Spider-Man gets his ears boxed, it'll hurt. If Batman applies a pressure point, it'll hurt. If Batman manages to get correct leverage, he can snap Peter's joints (Jigsaw has done this to the current, strengthened Spidey and he's not nearly as skilled as Batman nor quite as strong). Of course, all of this means he has to be able to hit Spidey, first, but his skill is not completely negated. He'd just have to be extra careful and extra sneaky about it, if not completely underhanded.

To be extra picky, Spider-Man doesn't weigh half a ton like a bear does, nor does he have razor sharp teeth and 5-inch claws, which are the really big reasons why humans would have an incredibly difficult task in fighting a bear barehanded.

Exactly.

Spiderman does have knowledge of the anatomy, and in fact most people know how to effectively hit someone.

Its common knowledge that the ears, temple, throat, stomach, kidneys, neck, kness, etc. Are weak points for the body, peter CHOOSES not to hit those for obvious reasons. He did on the hulk, and staggered him, to bats it would be fatal.

Also thats my other point, humans are limited by slowness and lack of flexibility due to strength, and easily accessible vital parts.

Spiderman gets the flexibility and speed, despite the power.
He also gets the extra durability from the muscular and skeletal enhancements from his strenght, and his heightened metabolism.

Boxing ears I'm not so sure on, doesn't he have super equilibrium?

Anyway, while spiderman isn't bruce lee, he is a monster in his own right, at the right time.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
So let me get this straight, I spidey back to his non-organic webbing, 10 ton strength and not talking to insects? Funny how it's ok to use current spidey but hell if Bats gets his motherbox even though he's been carrying it a couple of years now. Not that it matters, 'cause Bats wins anyway.

Give spiderman captian universe...

Sigh...

Batman has had better training than Spider-Man. Fine. Good for him. But the Batman defenders are forgetting three things:

- Spider-Man has had his "training" on the streets, and was already a famous and successful hero years before Bruce Wayne became Batman.

Can't beat first hand experience. While Bruce Wayne was still studying in fancy schools, Spider-Man was already kicking ass on the street.

- Not only that, but he doesn't need no real training, his powers give him everything he needs (and more). Spider-Man > martial arts. That's a fact, people.

- Spider-Man is also very experienced, something some members seem to forget. He knows how to hit, how to roll with a punch and has complete control over his superhuman powers.

Yep.

Originally posted by who?-kid
Sigh...

Batman has had better training than Spider-Man. Fine. Good for him. But the Batman defenders are forgetting three things:

- Spider-Man has had his "training" on the streets, and was already a famous and successful hero [b]years before Bruce Wayne became Batman.

Can't beat first hand experience. While Bruce Wayne was still studying in fancy schools, Spider-Man was already kicking ass on the street.

- Not only that, but he doesn't need no real training, his powers give him everything he needs (and more). Spider-Man > martial arts. That's a fact, people.

- Spider-Man is also very experienced, something some members seem to forget. He knows how to hit, how to roll with a punch and has complete control over his superhuman powers. [/B]

According to the DC timeline, Bruce became Batman in 1984, 21 years ago. How old is Peter?

Originally posted by Juntai
According to the DC timeline, Bruce became Batman in 1984, 21 years ago. How old is Peter?

He's talking about chronological aging.

Spiderman technically was kickng butt in his teens...

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
He's talking about chronological aging.

Spiderman technically was kickng butt in his teens...

Originally posted by Juntai
Right, but that puts Batman well into his 40's.
How old is Parker?

'Got me on exact, I'd say around thirty...

Its fairly relative then, I'd say it was around the same timeframe. Give or take a couple years from each one, cause there's no telling exactly how old Bruce was when he made it back to Gotham after his tour of the world and took the mantle of the bat.

Also in Hush, when Batman fell at the beginning after his line cut, he tried to grab something, it snapped his arm out of socket, and he said something like "First my city fails me, then my body. We've grown too old together."

Originally posted by Juntai
Its fairly relative then, I'd say it was around the same timeframe. Give or take a couple years from each one, cause there's no telling exactly how old Bruce was when he made it back to Gotham after his tour of the world and took the mantle of the bat.

Also in Hush, when Batman fell at the beginning after his line cut, he tried to grab something, it snapped his arm out of socket, and he said something like "First my city fails me, then my body. We've grown too old together."

Originally posted by who?-kid
Sigh...

Batman has had better training than Spider-Man. Fine. Good for him. But the Batman defenders are forgetting three things:

- Spider-Man has had his "training" on the streets, and was already a famous and successful hero [b]years before Bruce Wayne became Batman.

Can't beat first hand experience. While Bruce Wayne was still studying in fancy schools, Spider-Man was already kicking ass on the street.

- Not only that, but he doesn't need no real training, his powers give him everything he needs (and more). Spider-Man > martial arts. That's a fact, people.

- Spider-Man is also very experienced, something some members seem to forget. He knows how to hit, how to roll with a punch and has complete control over his superhuman powers. [/B]

Thank you. Thats what Im trying to say