Originally posted by jinzinwhat normal guy knocked out Spidey? i really wanna see that
I guess.......considering they have....
anyways....I get what you mean but still....batmans got the crap pounded outa him by a 8 to 10 tonner and he was fine.....spiderman gets knocked out by a normal guy too....and everyone just blows it off....I really don't know what else you want me to say....
daredevil survived an assault from doc ock....and then beat him up.....batman could do the same....
rhino's an idiot...batman would cream him...
batman already beat carnage....
venom......sonic freq emitors anyone?
black turantula would get KOed via knock out gas..
morlun...well you gotta point there.....
"what normal guy knocked out Spidey? i really wanna see that"
daredevil...in 12 hits....I'd post it...I'm just too lazy right now...
I never said SM can dodge every attack.You said Batman's can dodge every one of Spider-man's attackes.So I was putting down some times where he got hit by (key word SLOWER people).Spider-man is just better at dodging then Batman I want them to fight at there very best.I never said Crock was slow he is just slower then Spider-man.If Beast can beat Wolverine in hand to hand why can't SM beat BM?
If that's really what you meant you didn't convey it very well.........
"He gets hit by slow moving people like Rhino(Scar Face's henchmen) Killer Crock"
anyways...I didn't mean to imply that batman can dodge every one of batman's blows...just that he could outfight out wrestle or out grapple spiderman if he had to and dodge or roll with the punches as they come in......
Comparing beast and wolverine is a completely irrelivant fight here.....one wolverine's also beaten beast and stalemated him....two..wolverine's honor code probably doesn't allow him to go all out on beast prohibiting him mentally. three...batman SHOULD be a better fighter than logan.....four....wolverine doesn't have the toys that batman does.....again I get your point but that fight and this one are not comparible...🙁
Sorry bout the repeat posting but I messed up with the computer. Alright now. Spider-man has proven that injuries/illness won't hinder him and has faced many powerful foes with some sort of handicap and sometimes many different handicaps. He fought the lizard with one arm in a sling and the lizard makes bane look like a puss in H2H.When Spidey is at his best he is virtually untouchable and capable of easily a platoon of highly skilled opponents with the greatest of ease. Batman uses many methods to engage opponents but isn't capable of handling a mob of skilled and armed opponents with so much ease that he can taunt and tease just for kicks. Batman at his best would most definitely have a good fight on his hands facing Spidey at his worst based on previous "At his worst" feats from spider-man. ( He beat Doc Ock with about 3-4 blows after Days without sleep, a latent ulcer, and wounds from a previous beating from Ock) He was going all out because he thought that he had lost his strength and was getting all of his power from a power harness that turned out to have a dead battery. jinzin you also spoke on Daredevils well placed punches to Spidey that left him Koed. Are you telling me that Spidey wanted to kill DD and there wasn't ANYTHING wrong with Spidey at all? I find it hard to believe that a normal Spidey would be trying to kill anyone especially DD. Any Character that's in a controlled state is not at 100% effectiveness unless they are given some sort of enhancement. eg war hulk, archangel.
Also hypnotized heroes never win because they are always beaten by their freinds somehow and released from control, whether realistically or not. eg Batman will always defeat an evil Superman. Daredevil is in the SAME LEAGUE as Batman as far as fighting skills and very likely above his skill level due to his ability to incorporate his powers into his style. Those well placed blows were also well timed I'm sure because Daredevil can sense heartbeat and many other things that no one can sense. Batman hitting harder than DD doesn't make him DD's equal because there's nothing to substain that. You're just automatically assuming that Batman has no equal when it comes down to H2H fighting skills and that is a little narrow minded when you're combining marvel and DC. The point I'm trying to make is that DD does not just use his senses to dodge blows, he uses his senses in everything that he does, period. Those senses allow him to be "The man without fear" because he is precise probably about 90% of the time and the hardest peak human to hit. That being said Spidey has tagged DD and it's nonsense to say that because DD survived he can take Superhuman levels of punishment. Remember DD is only human physically and therefore should not be able to recover from blows that would do far more damage than some bullets.( eg. The chimney Spidey decimated looked like it had been struck by a cannon shell ) The same thing goes for batman for he has NO superhuman durability and you should separate super durability the same way you separate superhuman strength. Either it's super or it's not. Batman does not have any superhuman abilities AT ALL and thus his limits will be made evident in a H2H confrontation with someone who has many Superhuman abilities including speed, strength, agility ( and super agility is a bigger thing than it's being made out to be ),stamina, aim, vision, reflexes, and a precognitive warning system that he has become very familiar with using. Spidey definitely has Superhuman durability because he has stated many times " If it weren't for my spider strength that blow would have finished me." and " A regular person would never have survived" Batman has tools experience and maxed out human abilities. It should be obvious that you can't use feats that are undoubtedly Superhuman to support Bats because those feats stray outside of what is "humanly possible" even by comic book definition. eg Bats survives a punch from a pissed off Supes. That's comparable to Spidey surviving getting his guts ripped out. It defies even the very flexible comic book" logic ". Bats is going to lose to an on point Spidey even if he is on point. NUFF SAID.
( I HOPE ) 😄
any Spidey supporters agree with me? I'm just curious cause I'm rarely quoted. It might have somethin to do with my incredibly long posts.....
But I don't care I'm lovin this sh*t!! 😮💨
Originally posted by Blade Cutterwhen did Beast beat Wolvie in hand to hand?
I never said SM can dodge every attack.You said Batman's can dodge every one of Spider-man's attackes.So I was putting down some times where he got hit by (key word SLOWER people).Spider-man is just better at dodging then Batman I want them to fight at there very best.I never said Crock was slow he is just slower then Spider-man.If Beast can beat Wolverine in hand to hand why can't SM beat BM?
Spiderman's reflexes are 10 TIMES FASTER than human potential so he's A LOT better at dodging then Batman
Originally posted by jinzin
daredevil survived an assault from doc ock....and then beat him up.....batman could do the same....
rhino's an idiot...batman would cream him...
batman already beat carnage....
venom......sonic freq emitors anyone?
black turantula would get KOed via knock out gas..
morlun...well you gotta point there....."what normal guy knocked out Spidey? i really wanna see that"
daredevil...in 12 hits....I'd post it...I'm just too lazy right now...
2. Whenever DD fights Spider-Man, SM always has some kind of handicap (is hypnotized or is just too angry). I wonder why lol.
3. DD himself has admitted on several occasions that he is no match for Spider-Man. Even while knocking down SM - yes he did that, though it was a bit exaggerated, but hey, it happened - he was saying the whole freaking time that under normal conditions, DD would have been dead already.
4. DD himself stated that the ONLY he reason he was able to surprise SM, was because SM didn't think straight (his words, not mine).
"Sorry bout the repeat posting but I messed up with the computer. Alright now. Spider-man has proven that injuries/illness won't hinder him and has faced many powerful foes with some sort of handicap and sometimes many different handicaps."
he also was hindered a hell of a lot when he just sprained his arm.....he was barely able to pull out a victory against an aging vulture after that.....he almost died when he had a cold that was messing up his spider sense....
" jinzin you also spoke on Daredevils well placed punches to Spidey that left him Koed. Are you telling me that Spidey wanted to kill DD and there wasn't ANYTHING wrong with Spidey at all? I find it hard to believe that a normal Spidey would be trying to kill anyone especially DD."
yes I am infact....spidey was trying to put daredevil down and daredevil put a whoopin on him..
" Daredevil is in the SAME LEAGUE as Batman as far as fighting skills and very likely above his skill level due to his ability to incorporate his powers into his style. Those well placed blows were also well timed I'm sure because Daredevil can sense heartbeat and many other things that no one can sense. Batman hitting harder than DD doesn't make him DD's equal because there's nothing to substain that. You're just automatically assuming that Batman has no equal when it comes down to H2H fighting skills and that is a little narrow minded when you're combining marvel and DC."
well dude if you think DD's fighting ability is on par with bats you got more problems than me arguing with you here......daredevils no way as good a fighter as bats is....
"The point I'm trying to make is that DD does not just use his senses to dodge blows, he uses his senses in everything that he does, period. Those senses allow him to be "The man without fear" because he is precise probably about 90% of the time and the hardest peak human to hit. That being said Spidey has tagged DD and it's nonsense to say that because DD survived he can take Superhuman levels of punishment. "
we're talking about comics nonsense or not...daredevils survived hits from hyde, hulk, and spiderman.
"Remember DD is only human physically and therefore should not be able to recover from blows that would do far more damage than some bullets.( eg. The chimney Spidey decimated looked like it had been struck by a cannon shell ) The same thing goes for batman for he has NO superhuman durability and you should separate super durability the same way you separate superhuman strength. Either it's super or it's not. Batman does not have any superhuman abilities AT ALL and thus his limits will be made evident in a H2H confrontation"
see the thing is........batman regularly does things outsid the scope of human capabilities....but he losed becasue he's human? I simply don't follow that logic either....
The fact of the matter is that Batman isn't allowed Superhuman abilities in "this" fight. We should stay within the perameters of a hypothetical battle and hypothetically it is a fact that Batman has no superhuman abilities. So in a hypothetical fight he CAN'T do ANYTHING SUPERHUMAN.
If your'e trying to give him Super capabilities where needed then I'll just have to say that batman could hang with the Silver Surfer using that reasoning, so that reasoning is unreasonable. I'm not trying to be a wise ass so I hope you see what I'm saying.
I'm not giving him superhuman abilities....I'm saying it's not as simple as human vs. superhuman....not like you tried to make it out to be....esp...since everything batman does is beyong the scope of a human.....that's staying within the perameters of the character I haven't given him anything but the benefit of the doubt.......you guys have been doing that this entire thread...
It would take durability of superhuman levels to survive strikes that have superhuman force behind them. I am giving them both the benifit of the doubt and thats why I say batman would lose. Giving them both all of their abilities at their disposal and all the skills that they regularly have at their disposal Batman has to be able to not get hit by fist,foot or web, and Spidey has to evade gas and grenades and muscle propelled projectiles. Bruce is in grave danger if he is grabbed or struck at all and the same is not the case for Spidey because there isn't any human that can cripple Spidey using raw strength. DD is normal when it comes to durability and If a human can survive a punch from the hulk then that human should also be able to survive standing there while a mack truck hits him at 80mph cause the speeding truck can't survive a punch from the hulk. Spidey has barely survived the hulks punches and he was point blank during the explosion of a gas main when he was fighting Doom one time. The Bats is regularly presented as the invincible hero and Spidey is regularly presented as the struggling underdog. That being said I think that you would find Batman victorious in almost any scenario and 100% of the time when given prep time. I think that you must also be assuming that Spideys underdog status would apply here and thats pretty obvious because you keep assuming that bats is as fast tougher, and infinitely smarter than the slow witted, brawling, enexperienced, tactless, skinny kid, who couldn't fathom an opponent of the invincible Batmans caliber. Your'e basing the entire fight on Batman's ability to never fall for anything. Humans make mistakes and so do Superhumans but your'e assuming that any mistake against Batman is the last mistake. I think that it's the other way around by far and this is where I'll end it but I will say thanks for such a fulfilling debate jinzin ( And to all the Spidey Supporters- Good hangin in there cause this battle may never end but it will if we let it. So I'll be back but I've got some fun comic research to do.) Mad Props jinzin you're a good debator. Some of the Bat's supporters are obviously just a little BIASED.
IMO Spidey wins this fight 9 times out of 10 because they're both supposed to be at the top of their game and not holding back in this fight. Spidey doesn't just stand still to get beat down either. 😄 😎 😮💨
"It would take durability of superhuman levels to survive strikes that have superhuman force behind them. I am giving them both the benifit of the doubt and thats why I say batman would lose. Giving them both all of their abilities at their disposal and all the skills that they regularly have at their disposal Batman has to be able to not get hit by fist,foot or web, and Spidey has to evade gas and grenades and muscle propelled projectiles. Bruce is in grave danger if he is grabbed or struck at all and the same is not the case for Spidey because there isn't any human that can cripple Spidey using raw strength. DD is normal when it comes to durability and If a human can survive a punch from the hulk then that human should also be able to survive standing there while a mack truck hits him at 80mph cause the speeding truck can't survive a punch from the hulk. Spidey has barely survived the hulks punches and he was point blank during the explosion of a gas main when he was fighting Doom one time. The Bats is regularly presented as the invincible hero and Spidey is regularly presented as the struggling underdog. That being said I think that you would find Batman victorious in almost any scenario and 100% of the time when given prep time. I think that you must also be assuming that Spideys underdog status would apply here and thats pretty obvious because you keep assuming that bats is as fast tougher, and infinitely smarter than the slow witted, brawling, enexperienced, tactless, skinny kid, who couldn't fathom an opponent of the invincible Batmans caliber."
whao dude...chill out you're totally downplaying my respect for spidey and putting words into my mouth again.......the thing is spidey doesn't have to worry about getting hit with brute force to much from batsy but he does have to worry about pressure points, nerve clusters, and the tough of death......along with batman's weapons...... Now can batman survive a punch from spidey straight up? Yeah I definitely think he can....he might be reeling but he'll be okay for the most part......But not if he's just standing there and taking it......but once again he's not going to just LET spidey hit him....even if spidey gets in close to do so those nasty weapons of bats are gonna start coming into play.....I'm sorry if you don't like the way these characters are represented in comic books but that's just the way it is......Batman's the ultimate ninja and a very well trained ninja stalmated a pissed of spiderman. Spiderman''s spider sense and speed were barely able to allow him to keep up...that being said. I definitely think spiderman's at a disadvantage against the darknight.....once again spiderman has all the "obvious" advantages, but not all of the important ones....
"Your'e basing the entire fight on Batman's ability to never fall for anything. Humans make mistakes and so do Superhumans but your'e assuming that any mistake against Batman is the last mistake."
well that pretty much sums it up....
" I think that it's the other way around by far and this is where I'll end it but I will say thanks for such a fulfilling debate jinzin ( And to all the Spidey Supporters- Good hangin in there cause this battle may never end but it will if we let it. So I'll be back but I've got some fun comic research to do.) Mad Props jinzin you're a good debator."
thanks man....kudos to you and your arguments as well.....cheers.
I've tried to avoid this thread after putting in my $0.02 a few pages back in fear of having to repeat myself over and over again but now I feel that since I have nothing else to do at 10:56 PM I'd might as well try this.
Moving on, let's see what we have here? Spidey having trouble with one ninja? That's a laugh, it's also ironic seeing that I remember a comic where Spidey was fighting a particular ninja and was feeling very pi**ed. I believe the fight ended a little after Spidey had the ninja cowering at his feet while Spidey himself held, what was it, one or two subway cars over his head with an evil thought on what to do with them. Anyway, he calmed down eventually and the ninja lived to see another day. But during the time Spidey was in a rage he went on about how he was tired of always holding back and using but a fraction of his strength all because he was the good guy, etc, etc. A ninja too fast for Spidey and his spider sense? I think not. If the guy has the unmistakinable physiology of a human then unless Spidey is just really keeping his abilities down to a minimum then I can't see it happening.
And what's all this about martial artists being able to dent steel with one punch? Do I believe it? Yes. Will I accept that if you asked these same martial artists to do the same thing involuntarily they would and could? Nuh-uh. Martial arts, from my understanding, is a combination of the mental and the physical. You can't fight a martial artist with brute strength alone, you see, they're more mentally composed than the average person. Though they may have to think alot about what they're going to do next, they still manage to pull it off. They're a better thinker than the average person. They are trained to be so. It's not like they could do all of what they do without performing a type-technique of sorts or mentally composing themselves.
For example: We used to do this thing at school that I liked to call the "lighter than air" trick where we'd have classmates who were big people in their own right and try to lift and support him/her using nothing but our two index fingers clasped together. At first we simply could not do it, but, after our teacher told us to think that this person was lighter than air and believe it, and after we were done doing so, we could actually life and suport him/her with our two index fingers as easily as we could with an infant. I kid you not. It was a mental thing. We composed ourselves to the point where, though realistically we could not lift this person as easily we could, we did anyway.
And while a martial artist may be able to compose themselves mentally enough to the point where they can do things a good bit beyond what they could actually be able to do on the spot, they can't do the same when it comes to the subject of solidifying one's bone structure. You just can't help it, if you're a human with a typical human's bone structure that's how you would remain whether when mentally composed you could lift this or that.
To sum it all up: Martial artists like Batman mentally will themselves to do more than what they should on the spot. Heck, Spidey's done just the same when it has come to lifting up in the class 15-20 ton ranges. Nonetheless, mental composure simply does not alter one's bone structure. Now, when it comes to dealing with pain in general, then mental willpower can easily play a role. But if you're dealing with someone who goes well into the "I can punch through you" range of strength, then it simply can't be done.
On earlier posts I wrote that batman can take a full on punch from spiderman because of the encounter of the superman from the future. Now DID I SAY THAT BATMAN WAS NOT WEARING HIS SUIT. No batman was wearing his suit when said superman came calling from the future. Now why I'm saying this I am only saying this to show you that batman can and will survive a full on punch from spiderman now unless spiderman becomes stronger than a ticked off superman batman is surviving those punches. And besides batman got beaten by superman in a recent comic (Lex Luthor: Man of steel #3). Superman was said to be under the control of red krytonite. You know what batman had to show for it a broken nose. AGAIN THANKS TO THE SUIT BATMAN IS ABLE TO SURVIVE A WHOLE LOT MORE OF PUNISHMENT.
that's not the ninj battle example i was using....and second it's not the mentallity of the fighter that changes the bone structure...when you train you get hit....calcium deposits are created then filled up with blood cells then they solidify it doesn't take a martial arts expert to do this...just someone who's fairly dedicated.....even I can break bones with a block with my compraitively limited training....it has nothing to do with the mental state of a martial artist but the physical one....i suggest you watch extreme martial arts....its a most educational program for said arts and incredibly interesting.....but it's all explained there...other than that i can't really explain the aspects of martial arts to someone who hasn't experienced them him/her-self....so I hope that would I WAS able to convey was enough....