X-Men Origins: Wolverine

Originally posted by SelinaAndBruce
True but an R Rating and a lack of holding back doesn't always guarantee a good film. I point to the disappointment known as Watchmen as proof of that. That movie had the potential to revive the R rated comic book genre and it performing below expectations probably took the wind out of that sail, lol

This is where i ask...,what is wrong with, The Watchmen? It's not the movies fault that people don't like smart, mature different comic book movies. The movie was incredible. You may be upset that it wasn't a full on panel for panel adaptation but it's art. It shouldn't be a full on adaptation unless it's being made by the actual creator of the source material. Otherwise, the Director would be doing a great disservice to the fans and creator by making a movie based on what he thought was the original vision of the artist. He doesnt know what that vision was.

Watchmen did a great job capturing all of the most important elements and tones of the comic, i believe. What do you feel was so bad about the movie? I blame people for not being ready for it. When the biggest complaint about the movie that i hear is a blue penis then society fails, not the product.

You're just a fan of blue penis, admit it.

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx

Watchmen did a great job capturing all of the most important elements and tones of the comic, i believe. What do you feel was so bad about the movie? I blame people for not being ready for it. When the biggest complaint about the movie that i hear is a blue penis then society fails, not the product.

Even little things like the fact that the movie never really showed you the citizens in the movie the way it did in the comic book affected the way the ending impacted the audience. No one cared what happened to the people in the city because you never even saw them. Where as in the comic book you connected with the guy on the street who was reading the Black Freighter, the newspaper salesman, the psychologist etc.

What was wrong with Watchmen is it had no heart and it seemed to be made with no passion. Sure it had most of the comic on the screen but every character was flat and hard to care about. The only thing they got almost right was Rorschach. The rest was forgettable and really Alan Moore was right, that novel would never translate into a good movie and it never should have been made.

And that's coming from a huge fan of the graphic novel who went in with low expectations. I had so many people who never heard of the graphic novel come up to me and ask me to explain what was supposedly so great about Watchmen and I told them they would never know unless they read the novel because the movie missed so much to the point were it wasn't even Watchmen at all in my opinion. It was a pale imitation.

And it's not like they skimped on the violence or anything. Like I said it was rated R but it still was not a good comic book movie and in the end will be mostly forgotten as it should be.

I at least hope Wolverine will be better...but I'm not expecting a whole lot and most hardcore Wolvie fans I know who have seen the workprint were not impressed.

Originally posted by Mindset
How am I the Deadpool poster boy?

omg.

Originally posted by Mindset
I guess everyone else who didn't like the film was because they were Deadpool "poster boys", yea that's it, it can't be that it wasn't a good movie.

Originally posted by Mindset
Also, tell me where I criticized him for liking Wolverine, I said that is probably the reason he liked it, even though most people don't find the film to be good, and the reason he thought this was better than any of the Spiderman movies.

Yet they butcher tons of aspects of the Wolverine he likes.
Also, X3 is quite Wolverine heavy, it doesn't delude him into thinking it's a good movie.

Originally posted by Mindset
fail facepalm

Originally posted by jinzin
seriously?

omg.

nope just pointing out the irony.

because you're trying to invalidate his opinion based on character preference.

Yet they butcher tons of aspects of the Wolverine he likes.
Also, X3 is quite Wolverine heavy, it doesn't delude him into thinking it's a good movie.

Tell me about it.

Seriously how is he a DP fanboy? I picked up that Doom was his all time favorite.

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
I meant the other games, homie. The Ultimate Alliance series. 😉

Ah, yeah, that had some awesome cutscenes. X-Men Legends did, too, if I recall correctly. I'd forgotten those completely.

As for what's wrong with Watchmen... the main problem, I thought, was Zack Snyder not being a visionary, and the fact that he completely missed the point of the comic, or at least its soul/ spirit/ essence/ whatever.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Seriously how is he a DP fanboy? I picked up that Doom was his all time favorite.

I didn't say fanboy.... He does support DP in a ton of threads. It's not hard to see the affection.

Originally posted by SelinaAndBruce
I couldn't disagree more. The problem with Watchmen is it was so carefully concentrated on translating the story to the screen almost frame by frame that it lacked emotion and wasn't able to draw the audience in. It just told the story but you didn't feel the story at all. The relationships in the movie weren't developed well at all you didn't really get many of the characters motivations because none of them were really fleshed out...basically the Watchmen movie made it that much more obvious how important the supplemental materials like Under the Hood and the newspaper clippings etc about the different characters were in bringing you into the story.

Even little things like the fact that the movie never really showed you the citizens in the movie the way it did in the comic book affected the way the ending impacted the audience. No one cared what happened to the people in the city because you never even saw them. Where as in the comic book you connected with the guy on the street who was reading the Black Freighter, the newspaper salesman, the psychologist etc.

What was wrong with Watchmen is it had no heart and it seemed to be made with no passion. Sure it had most of the comic on the screen but every character was flat and hard to care about. The only thing they got almost right was Rorschach. The rest was forgettable and really Alan Moore was right, that novel would never translate into a good movie and it never should have been made.

And that's coming from a huge fan of the graphic novel who went in with low expectations. I had so many people who never heard of the graphic novel come up to me and ask me to explain what was supposedly so great about Watchmen and I told them they would never know unless they read the novel because the movie missed so much to the point were it wasn't even Watchmen at all in my opinion. It was a pale imitation.

And it's not like they skimped on the violence or anything. Like I said it was rated R but it still was not a good comic book movie and in the end will be mostly forgotten as it should be.

I at least hope Wolverine will be better...but I'm not expecting a whole lot and most hardcore Wolvie fans I know who have seen the workprint were not impressed.

thats fair enough. I can understand where you're coming from there. Although i didn't interpret the movie the same way as you i can see why you feel that it lacked heart. As far as lacking character development though...,that's all the movie was. The overall story was greatly simplified so that the movie could focus more on the characters and i thought it did so very well. I think a few revelations were carried out a bit hastily, i.e...,Dr Manhattans belief in mankind.

Liev Schreiber is going to dominate this movie, even if he doesn't look much like Sabretooth.

Almost the revelations were carried out hastily, Manhattan's belief in mankind, Laurie's paternity revelation...none of it was handled well I think a lot of it just did not translate to the big screen very well unfortunately. I think a lot of the cut time got focused on Rorschach which is fine by me because he is my favorite out of the group but I mean other people's stories suffered severely. Adrian had no backstory whatsoever so he just looked like a stock character when that clearly isn't the case in the novel. And I think when you lose Under the Hood you lose a LOT of the Comedian's own story and some of the understanding of why the Keene's Act was passed etc.

Originally posted by Mindset
You didn't explain how Joker seemed out of character because there wasn't more violence. Look at the comics, 'The Killing Joke', gives a great characterization of The Joker, and it does so w/o excessive or graphic violence. More violence doesn't equate to a better Joker imo.

How did he seem out of character, and what certain things didn't he do because it was a pg-13 movie? I just do see how a more 'Hostel'-like experience would make Joker a better character, and it's not that I'm just staunchly disagreeing with you, I want to see your rationale.

To my knowledge TDK doesn't have a directors cut, and directors cuts don't always mean it will have material that would make the movie bumped to a higher rating level. And while some movies may benefit from having more breathing room in what they can show, that does not mean that that is the case for all movies.

Fact - Movies earn more money if they earn a lower rating.

And, no, I'm not talking about "hostel" type of stuff either.

And I have no idea what you want me to tell you other than more violence in the form of the Joker character. I'm not a comic book script writer, so I have no idea what would be best for the Joker...just more violence being manifest would certainly add to his character for me.

And, you're right, it doesn't have a director's cut because the director is a genius of film and knew exactly what to write and how to direct it. In fact, I feel bad, now, about indirectly insulting his wonderful work.

However, I would have liked to see more "crazy pyscho-path" killer actions from the joker and I would have loved for the language to actually match what "Gotham's finest" would actually say.

Originally posted by SelinaAndBruce
I couldn't disagree more. The problem with Watchmen is it was so carefully concentrated on translating the story to the screen almost frame by frame

No it didn't. Far from it, a lot of times. Did you read the comic? (Edit - further down, I discovered that you did. In fact, you probably know more off the top of your head about the comic than I do.)

Originally posted by SelinaAndBruce
that it lacked emotion and wasn't able to draw the audience in.

I disagree. It certainly drew me in. I was utterly fascinated at the character development of Walter Kovacs.

The internal struggle of Laurie Jupiter was very nicely portrayed.

Edward Blake was very almost PERFECT and you loved and hated his character at the same time. (Better than the comic, imo.)

Daniel Dreiberg's struggles with "forbidden" love and renewed resolve as a hero was very intelligently played out.

Originally posted by SelinaAndBruce
It just told the story but you didn't feel the story at all.

Obviously, that's subjective.

Originally posted by SelinaAndBruce
The relationships in the movie weren't developed well at all you didn't really get many of the characters motivations because none of them were really fleshed out

Did you watch the same film I did?

Do you know why Sally Jupiter started crying when she got back into her car after yelling at Edward Blake for him talking to her daughter? What happened there is implied and a very powerful moment for any movie. That was an extremely complex emotional moment for Sally's character. She realized that Edward wasn't the cold hearted play boy he was portrayed as. She realized that he was talking to Laurie, not as a flirtation, but as a father with a huge regret. She realized that Edward experienced a change and that she still had feelings for him. All of this at once overwhelmed her character to the point of tears.

I'm betting you missed all that because you didn't think the characters were very well developed.

Originally posted by SelinaAndBruce
Even little things like the fact that the movie never really showed you the citizens in the movie the way it did in the comic book affected the way the ending impacted the audience. No one cared what happened to the people in the city because you never even saw them. Where as in the comic book you connected with the guy on the street who was reading the Black Freighter, the newspaper salesman, the psychologist etc.

I detect a massive contradiction in your posts. You said, in your opening, that they followed the comic book, frame by frame, and no you're saying they didn't.

Also, there were citizens shown in the film, but, I agree, not nearly to the extent of the comic. I don't feel that it was detrimental to the film as it was already 2:45.

Originally posted by SelinaAndBruce
What was wrong with Watchmen is it had no heart and it seemed to be made with no passion.

I disagree. I believe just the opposite.

Originally posted by SelinaAndBruce
Sure it had most of the comic on the screen but every character was flat and hard to care about.

Youuuuu didn't find yourself agreeing one some level with Rorschach's slaughter of that guy who rapped, cut up, and burned little girls? You didn't see the internal turmoil that ended with his decision to slaughter that guy? That was a very powerful moment in the film.

Originally posted by SelinaAndBruce
The only thing they got almost right was Rorschach. The rest was forgettable and really Alan Moore was right, that novel would never translate into a good movie and it never should have been made.

I disagree. I liked the film better than the comic. 😐

Originally posted by SelinaAndBruce
And that's coming from a huge fan of the graphic novel who went in with low expectations.

I think I better understand your position, now.

Originally posted by SelinaAndBruce
I had so many people who never heard of the graphic novel come up to me and ask me to explain what was supposedly so great about Watchmen and I told them they would never know unless they read the novel because the movie missed so much to the point were it wasn't even Watchmen at all in my opinion. It was a pale imitation.

Then...it wasn't a frame by frame recreation to film, then.

And, I didn't have to explain anything to anyone when I watched the film.

Originally posted by SelinaAndBruce
And it's not like they skimped on the violence or anything. Like I said it was rated R but it still was not a good comic book movie and in the end will be mostly forgotten as it should be.

Nah. It will go down as one of the best comic book to movie adaptations to date.

Originally posted by SelinaAndBruce
I at least hope Wolverine will be better...but I'm not expecting a whole lot and most hardcore Wolvie fans I know who have seen the workprint were not impressed.

I am expecting a very "light" version of Wolverine's obvious violent nature. This disappoints me greatly, however, I am VERY stoked about this film. I can't wait. I'm going with everyone at work.

Originally posted by jinzin
seriously?

omg.

nope just pointing out the irony.

because you're trying to invalidate his opinion based on character preference.

Yet they butcher tons of aspects of the Wolverine he likes.
Also, X3 is quite Wolverine heavy, it doesn't delude him into thinking it's a good movie.

Tell me about it.

Pointing out the rationale behind someones reasons for liking the movie is not invalidating their opinion. The fact that he thinks that Wolverine is a better movie than the Spiderman 1 & 2 especially, lead me to believe that it is because this is a Wolverine movie, since the majority of reviews and people who have seen this movie, that I've seen feedback from, think that it is a dud, while Spiderman 1 & 2 have overall positive reviews.

I am telling you about it, but you wont listen.

Originally posted by hugekent
Liev Schreiber is going to dominate this movie, even if he doesn't look much like Sabretooth.

Not really.

Originally posted by jinzin
seriously?

omg.

nope just pointing out the irony.

because you're trying to invalidate his opinion based on character preference.

Yet they butcher tons of aspects of the Wolverine he likes.
Also, X3 is quite Wolverine heavy, it doesn't delude him into thinking it's a good movie.

Tell me about it.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Not really.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
actaully he does. He was my favorite character in the movie.

Turning Sabretooth into some big rapist was just stupid and he looked foolish.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
cosigned

i im gonna kill you uhuh

Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree. It certainly drew me in. I was utterly fascinated at the character development of Walter Kovacs.

The internal struggle of Laurie Jupiter was very nicely portrayed.

Edward Blake was very almost PERFECT and you loved and hated his character at the same time. (Better than the comic, imo.)

Daniel Dreiberg's struggles with "forbidden" love and renewed resolve as a hero was very intelligently played out.

Do you know why Sally Jupiter started crying when she got back into her car after yelling at Edward Blake for him talking to her daughter? What happened there is implied and a very powerful moment for any movie. That was an extremely complex emotional moment for Sally's character. She realized that Edward wasn't the cold hearted play boy he was portrayed as. She realized that he was talking to Laurie, not as a flirtation, but as a father with a huge regret. She realized that Edward experienced a change and that she still had feelings for him. All of this at once overwhelmed her character to the point of tears.

She already knew Eddie Blake could be gentle and sweet that's why she slept with him anyway after he tried to rape her. And Eddie already knew Laurie was his daughter so he wouldn't flirt with her anyway. The shame is what made her cry and overwhelmed her. Not some realization that he was a good person.

I'm betting you missed all that because you didn't think the characters were very well developed.

I detect a massive contradiction in your posts. You said, in your opening, that they followed the comic book, frame by frame, and no you're saying they didn't.

Also, there were citizens shown in the film, but, I agree, not nearly to the extent of the comic. I don't feel that it was detrimental to the film as it was already 2:45.

It was an almost frame by frame translation that is where it lost it's passion but you can retell something and lose something in translation. Watchmen the movie lost the emotion in translation it should have been reimagined more for the big screen in my opinion or never made, the latter being my personal choice. And it was detrimental to the film in my opinion not to include the citizens or even show bodies like it did in the novel. The loss of the line Laurie uttered about the people just going out for Indian food and how they will never be able to laugh or love etc really drives home the fragility of human life and makes you realize what waste was made to justify the means of the person who carried out the destruction. The destruction of the people was glossed over so much in the movie, why the next day when they visited Sally together there was hardly any sadness or shocked over millions of people suddenly dying at all. Like I said complete loss of heart. It was barely discussed at all.

Youuuuu didn't find yourself agreeing one some level with Rorschach's slaughter of that guy who rapped, cut up, and burned little girls? You didn't see the internal turmoil that ended with his decision to slaughter that guy? That was a very powerful moment in the film.

I disagree. I liked the film better than the comic. 😐

Nah. It will go down as one of the best comic book to movie adaptations to date.

Originally posted by SelinaAndBruce
Couldn't disagree more. She was one of the worst portrayals partially because of Malin Ackerman's terrible acting.

Then this is where talking about it any further becomes futile. The comic is obviously a relative bible for you and nothing anyone could have done would have made the movie any good to you. That's fine. The comic was awesome so I don't see anything wrong with that...despite it being, imo, the best comic to movie adaptation to date. And, yes, I know you already brought up Moore's comments on a movie adaptation.

Originally posted by SelinaAndBruce
That's not why she was crying in my interpretation. Sally Jupiter had serious self esteem issues which were especially focused on in the novel. She felt ashamed for having slept with someone who attempted to rape her, felt ashamed for wanting him and she was ashamed he fathered her child. She had feelings for him but all of that was complicated by what happened between them earlier and her unwillingness to face or cope with that and Laurie being around him reminded her of all of that. The only reason she didn't hate Eddie Blake completely besides her own low self esteem was because he later gave her Laurie but she had conflicting feelings about him and it brought up a lot of bad and painful things.

She already knew Eddie Blake could be gentle and sweet that's why she slept with him anyway after he tried to rape her. And Eddie already knew Laurie was his daughter so he wouldn't flirt with her anyway. The shame is what made her cry and overwhelmed her. Not some realization that he was a good person.

AHA!

Gotcha. The fact that you had to analyze that with such length, makes the character far from "flat" by any stretch of the imagination. Didja see what I did there? I'm sneaky sneaky.

Originally posted by SelinaAndBruce
No I've just read the graphic novel several times and I think I have a good idea of what Moore was going for, and that Snyder didn't really translate that well on screen especially if that is what you got out of the scene.

I certainly disagree with you on both the COMIC and the movie's accounts. Actually, I think it's an amalgamation of our two interpretations. I forgot to mention the rape thing and the turmoil of those "I have feelings for him and he's a bastard". But those feelings came to the surface because she initially realized his regret after berating him.

Originally posted by SelinaAndBruce
It was an almost frame by frame translation that is where it lost it's passion but you can retell something and lose something in translation.

And this is where I disagree. The individual people playing those characters brought things to the characters that aren't in the comic. This individual essence full of quirks and speech patterns gives it that feel that even the most imaginative person will have difficulty replicating by just reading a comic book. This is one of the reasons I loved seeing this movie on film. Wonderful to experience this comic through a live action adaptation, and, to my delight, it had many similarities to the comic. That made me very happy.

Originally posted by SelinaAndBruce
Watchmen the movie lost the emotion in translation it should have been reimagined more for the big screen in my opinion or never made, the latter being my personal choice.

Now do you see why you had a biased against the film before you saw it? No matter what was in the film, you wouldn't have liked it, which, imo, eliminates your opinion as being as objective as possible. I went into the film expecting a good picture show that resembled a nice story I read once upon a time. Why don't you watch the movie again as a movie and not a frame by frame live action comic? It would take great imagination (I am not saying you already don't have a great one, I am saying that doing that would take a huge amount of imagination), I know, and it will be quite difficult for you since you hold the comic in such high esteem...but try it and see how the movie feels. If you start watching a scene and you catch yourself saying "well, he should have said this" or "that's not how that played out" or "they forgot this part before this scene", stop it immediately and dash those thoughts out of your head.

Originally posted by SelinaAndBruce
And it was detrimental to the film in my opinion not to include the citizens or even show bodies like it did in the novel.

No, what was detrimental to the film was the conclusion that no matter what was seen, it would fail.

Don't worry, you're not the only one who thought that. You're just the first person I could talk to about it.

Originally posted by SelinaAndBruce
The loss of the line Laurie uttered about the people just going out for Indian food and how they will never be able to laugh or love etc really drives home the fragility of human life and makes you realize what waste was made to justify the means of the person who carried out the destruction. The destruction of the people was glossed over so much in the movie, why the next day when they visited Sally together there was hardly any sadness or shocked over millions of people suddenly dying at all. Like I said complete loss of heart. It was barely discussed at all.

That is a very minor detail that, imo, would have done nothing to add to her already emotionally developed character.

Originally posted by SelinaAndBruce
I could live my life without ever seeing the film again and be fine. But I know I'll re read Watchmen again at some point. The novel just has a lot more heart than the film ever could and I didn't hate the film I just don't think it enhanced anything or gave the general public a reason to get interested in Watchmen as a whole.

Why would the movie cause the general public to be interested in The Watchmen? The Watchmen comic wasn't some groundbreaking best seller before the movie. There's no reason that the movie, which was based on the comic, would fair any better (relative to other movies and best sellers)..

One thing is sure, Moore did say that Hayter's screenplay was as close to a movie adaptation as one could get.

Originally posted by SelinaAndBruce
I disagree, I don't think it will at all. I still think it will remain mostly forgotten. It wasn't even reviewed that well.

It certainly was reviewed well. IMDB has it at an 8 after 65000 reviews. Rotten Tomatoes has it as 65%...not bad at all for a bunch of whiners.

Still remain mostly forgotten? I guess you didn't know that there was a demand for the graphic novel in the order of millions, did you?

What I find amazing is we have two people, both who read and thoroughly enjoyed the comic, watched the movie, and came out of the theater with the polar opposite on the film.

Now, on topic.

One thing is for sure: You and I will agree on this new Wolverine movie. I will be very sad to see things missing form the movie...however, I still think it's going to be one of the best movies I've seen. In my top 10, without a doubt.