Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Oh, and one should point out to you that there is no such thing as two human beings with the exact same genetics. Twins do not share the same genetic structure. Only a clone would.
Identical twins are clones CF and their differences debunk science fiction notions that an exact replica of a person or animal can be cloned. So you are sort of right and sort of wrong.
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Identical twins are clones CF and their differences debunk science fiction notions that an exact replica of a person or animal can be cloned. So you are sort of right and sort of wrong.
Well, excellent. Even more for Sith to think about.
In your opinion Whirly, where are these differences coming from? In exact identical twins?
and I was apparently only wrong in my lack of knowledge in regards to clones.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Well, excellent. Even more for Sith to think about.In your opinion Whirly, where are these differences coming from? In exact identical twins?
and I was apparently only wrong in my lack of knowledge in regards to clones.
Cell division changes albeit slight take place at every division, this is a kind of mutation. The amount of development that takes place in the womb, one can recieve more oxygen food than another. Environmental factors can cause greater mutation, e.g. the affects of diet and smoking actually affect how DNA replicates. There are lots of other factors also!
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Oh, and one should point out to you that there is no such thing as two human beings with the exact same genetics. Twins do not share the same genetic structure. Only a clone would.
From Wikipedia:
Fraternal twins (commonly known as "non-identical twins"😉 usually occur when two fertilized eggs are implanted in the uterine wall at the same time. The two eggs form two zygotes, and these twins are therefore also known as dizygotic as well as "biovular" twins.
Dizygotic twins, like any siblings, have a very small chance of having the exact same chromosome profile, but most likely have a number of different chromosomes that distinguish them. Dizygotic twins may be a different sex or the same sex, just as with any other siblings.
Studies show that there is a genetic basis for fraternal twinning—that is, non-identical twins do run in families. However, it is only the female that has any influence on the chances of having fraternal twins as the male cannot make her release more than one ovum.
[edit]
Identical twins
Identical twins occur when a single egg is fertilized to form one zygote (monozygotic) but the zygote then divides into two separate embryos. The two embryos develop into fetuses sharing the same womb. Depending on the stage at which the zygote divides, identical twins may share the same amnion (in which case they are known as monoamniotic) or not (diamniotic). Diamniotic identical twins may share the same placenta (known as monochorionic) or not (dichorionic). All monoamniotic twins are monochorionic. Also note that any monochorionic or monoamniotic twins are identical twins. This condition does not occur for fraternal twins.
The later in pregnancy that twinning occurs, the more structures will be shared. Zygotes that twin at the earliest stages will be diamniotic and dichorionic ("di-di"😉. Twinning between 4 to 8 days after fertilization typically results in monochorionic-diamniotic ("mono-di"😉 twins. Twinning between 8 to 12 days after fertilization will usually result in monochorionic-monoamniotic ("mono-mono"😉 twins. Twinning after 12 days post-fertilization will typically result in conjoined twins.
Sharing the same amnion (or the same amnion and placenta) can cause complications in pregnancy. For example, the umbilical cords of monoamniotic twins can become entangled, reducing or interrupting the blood supply to the developing fetus. Monochorionic twins, sharing one placenta, usually also share the placental blood supply. These twins may develop such that blood passes disproportionately from one twin to the other through connecting blood vessels within their shared placenta, leading to twin-to-twin transfusion syndrome. About 50% of mono-mono twins die from umbilical cord entanglement.
Monozygotic twins are genetically identical unless there has been a mutation in development, and they are almost always the same gender. (On extremely rare occasions, an original XXY zygote may form monozygotic boy/girl twins by dropping the Y chromosome for one twin and the extra X chromosome for the other.) Monozygotic twins generally look alike, although sometimes they appear as mirror images of each other. Examination of details such as fingerprints can tell them apart. As they mature, identical twins often become less alike because of lifestyle choices or external influences such as scars.
While it was originally thought that identical twins do not run in families, but occur more or less randomly, some recent research has suggested that a genetic predisposition may exist. The exact cause for the splitting of a zygote or embryo is unknown.
Identical twins can behave as differently as any other siblings (a matter of much interest to psychologists). They develop their own individual personalities to enable themselves to be identified as individual persons. Many identical twins spend most of their time together (especially as children), so people often assume that they will behave alike just as they look alike; however, this is not the case. Twins are unique individuals that establish their own individual likes and dislikes. There are usually obvious signs of differences when the identical twins are observed separately or together.
Identical twins have identical DNA but differing environmental influences throughout their lives affect which genes are switched on or off. This is called epigenetic modification. A study of 80 pairs of twins ranging in age from 3 to 74 showed that the youngest twins have relatively few epigenetic differences. The number of differences between identical twins increases with age. 50-year-old twins had over 3 times the epigenetic difference that the 3-year-old twins had. Twins who had spent their lives apart (such as those adopted by two different sets of parents at birth) had the greatest difference. (Fraga, et al., 2005).
Some percentage of monozygotic twins are called "mirror twins" or mirror image twins. These are identical twins with opposite features, that is one may be right handed and the other may be left handed; hair will whorl in the opposite direction, and so on. The incidence of mirror twinning is comparatively rare. They result from a late split of the fertilized egg at around 9-12 days. One mirror may or may not have situs inversus. This is where some or all of the organs will be on the opposite side of the body, such as the heart being on the right(Dextrocardia). Such conditions are usually associated with a higher incidence of other birth defects.
Hmmm.....
I don't think they agree with you Capt.
I think Identical twins are exactly the same genetically.
Of particular interest to me was the part that says they have the same DNA but, "differing environmental influences throughout their lives affect which genes turn on or off".
So it may appear that we are BOTH right. It can be in your genetic structure, but certain things have to happen to bring it out. (i.e. environmental factors.)
(like all human embrio's being inherently female, and getting a genetic change at the right stage to make them male.)
In any event, indentical twins have "the same DNA" and are "genetically identical".... so if one was "born gay" the other would have to be as well.
Give me a few minutes and I will try to post a few examples of identical twins who are of different sexual orientations to prove my point.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
From Wikipedia:Fraternal twins (commonly known as "non-identical twins"😉 usually occur when[B] two fertilized eggs are implanted in the uterine wall at the same time.
The two eggs form two zygotes, and these twins are therefore also known as dizygotic as well as "biovular" twins.Dizygotic twins, like any siblings, have a very small chance of having the exact same chromosome profile, but most likely have a number of different chromosomes that distinguish them. Dizygotic twins may be a different sex or the same sex, just as with any other siblings.
Studies show that there is a genetic basis for fraternal twinning—that is, non-identical twins do run in families. However, it is only the female that has any influence on the chances of having fraternal twins as the male cannot make her release more than one ovum.
[edit]
Identical twins
Identical twins occur when a single egg is fertilized to form one zygote (monozygotic) but the zygote then divides into two separate embryos.[/B} The two embryos develop into fetuses sharing the same womb. Depending on the stage at which the zygote divides, identical twins may share the same amnion (in which case they are known as monoamniotic) or not (diamniotic). Diamniotic identical twins may share the same placenta (known as monochorionic) or not (dichorionic). All monoamniotic twins are monochorionic. Also note that any monochorionic or monoamniotic twins are identical twins. This condition does not occur for fraternal twins.The later in pregnancy that twinning occurs, the more structures will be shared. Zygotes that twin at the earliest stages will be diamniotic and dichorionic ("di-di"😉. Twinning between 4 to 8 days after fertilization typically results in monochorionic-diamniotic ("mono-di"😉 twins. Twinning between 8 to 12 days after fertilization will usually result in monochorionic-monoamniotic ("mono-mono"😉 twins. Twinning after 12 days post-fertilization will typically result in conjoined twins.
Sharing the same amnion (or the same amnion and placenta) can cause complications in pregnancy. For example, the umbilical cords of monoamniotic twins can become entangled, reducing or interrupting the blood supply to the developing fetus. Monochorionic twins, sharing one placenta, usually also share the placental blood supply. These twins may develop such that blood passes disproportionately from one twin to the other through connecting blood vessels within their shared placenta, leading to twin-to-twin transfusion syndrome. About 50% of mono-mono twins die from umbilical cord entanglement.
[B]Monozygotic twins are genetically identical unless there has been a mutation in development, and they are almost always the same gender. (On extremely rare occasions, an original XXY zygote may form monozygotic boy/girl twins by dropping the Y chromosome for one twin and the extra X chromosome for the other.) Monozygotic twins generally look alike, although sometimes they appear as mirror images of each other. Examination of details such as fingerprints can tell them apart. As they mature, identical twins often become less alike because of lifestyle choices or external influences such as scars.
While it was originally thought that identical twins do not run in families, but occur more or less randomly, some recent research has suggested that a genetic predisposition may exist. The exact cause for the splitting of a zygote or embryo is unknown.
Identical twins can behave as differently as any other siblings (a matter of much interest to psychologists). They develop their own individual personalities to enable themselves to be identified as individual persons. Many identical twins spend most of their time together (especially as children), so people often assume that they will behave alike just as they look alike; however, this is not the case. Twins are unique individuals that establish their own individual likes and dislikes. There are usually obvious signs of differences when the identical twins are observed separately or together.
Identical twins have identical DNA but differing environmental influences throughout their lives affect which genes are switched on or off. This is called epigenetic modification. A study of 80 pairs of twins ranging in age from 3 to 74 showed that the youngest twins have relatively few epigenetic differences. The number of differences between identical twins increases with age. 50-year-old twins had over 3 times the epigenetic difference that the 3-year-old twins had. Twins who had spent their lives apart (such as those adopted by two different sets of parents at birth) had the greatest difference. (Fraga, et al., 2005).
Some percentage of monozygotic twins are called "mirror twins" or mirror image twins. These are identical twins with opposite features, that is one may be right handed and the other may be left handed; hair will whorl in the opposite direction, and so on. The incidence of mirror twinning is comparatively rare. They result from a late split of the fertilized egg at around 9-12 days. One mirror may or may not have situs inversus. This is where some or all of the organs will be on the opposite side of the body, such as the heart being on the right(Dextrocardia). Such conditions are usually associated with a higher incidence of other birth defects.
Hmmm.....
I don't think they agree with you Capt.
I think Identical twins are exactly the same genetically.
Of particular interest to me was the part that says they have the same DNA but, "differing environmental influences throughout their lives affect which genes turn on or off".
So it may appear that we are BOTH right. It can be in your genetic structure, but certain things have to happen to bring it out. (i.e. environmental factors.)
(like all human embrio's being inherently female, and getting a genetic change at the right stage to make them male.)
In any event, indentical twins have "the same DNA" and are "genetically identical".... so if one was "born gay" the other would have to be as well.
Give me a few minutes and I will try to post a few examples of identical twins who are of different sexual orientations to prove my point. [/B]
Actually sithsaber even Genetically identical individuals (indentical twins) do not remain genetically identical for long at the base level. About 1/4 of identical twins are what are called mirror twins, these are obviously not identical because they are reverse images. At every cell division changes take place for everyone. So identical twins may start from the same source but they will not stay identical.
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Actually sithsaber even Genetically identical individuals (indentical twins) do not remain genetically identical for long at the base level. About 1/4 of identical twins are what are called mirror twins, these are obviously not identical because they are reverse images. At every cell division changes take place for everyone. So identical twins may start from the same source but they will not stay identical.
I know, I read the article. 🙂
To me it's more proof. One twin would be gay, and , by default, the other would have to be straight.
In any event, those identical twins who are not in the 1/4.... are of the same genetic makeup and DNA.
They could not possibly be straight and gay if homosexuality is genetic as some have claimed.
It is a product of environmental factors, and identical twins have the "same DNA" and are "genetically identical"... according to wikipedia, anyway.
I don't see how it has been disproved.
Or how you can prove homosexuality is genetic if 2 twins who are "mirror images" of each other come out both straight. (as in the article you posted.)
If they were the same genetically, but opposites in how the genes developed their characteristics, then one would have to be gay by default, right?
(of course not, be we are assuming homosexuality is genetic in that scenario)
Rebuttals?
Originally posted by sithsaber408
I know, I read the article. 🙂To me it's more proof. One twin would be gay, and , by default, the other would have to be straight.
In any event, those identical twins who are not in the 1/4.... are of the same genetic makeup and DNA.
They could not possibly be straight and gay if homosexuality is genetic as some have claimed.
It is a product of environmental factors, and identical twins have the "same DNA" and are "genetically identical"... according to wikipedia, anyway.
I don't see how it has been disproved.
Or how you can prove homosexuality is genetic if 2 twins who are "mirror images" of each other come out both straight. (as in the article you posted.)
If they were the same genetically, but opposites in how the genes developed their characteristics, then one would have to be gay by default, right?
(of course not, be we are assuming homosexuality is genetic in that scenario)
Rebuttals?
Wiki is incredibly simplistic in this. Gene expression and predisposition are determined by a myriad of factors. Once the egg has divided different sequences may play more or lesser roles in personality and preference. Because no truly gene identical individuals exist this is a non argument.
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Wiki is incredibly simplistic in this. Gene expression and predisposition are determined by a myriad of factors. Once the egg has divided different sequences may play more or lesser roles in personality and preference. Because no truly gene identical individuals exist this is a non argument.
So identical twins can be both gay and straight, and homosexuality is still genetic?
Or environmental?
http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/03/differential-brain-activation.pdf
that gets into some of the factors on fully grown men and some results even though the test sample is really small.
Originally posted by soleran30
http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/03/differential-brain-activation.pdfthat gets into some of the factors on fully grown men and some results even though the test sample is really small.
I had not seen this... fascinating!!!
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Yes. As Sir Whirlysplat pointed out, identical twins start with the same DNA, but their DNA does not remain identical.
As I pointed out, they get changes in their DNA through "environmental factors"... which would explain 2 twins, but only one being gay.
(Unless you mean to say that identical twins start with the same DNA, and one, for no reason, "mutates" into having homosexual genes and one does not.)
Another person who answered the question saying that identical twins are identical in DNA and genetics:
Originally posted by sithsaber408
As I pointed out, they get changes in their DNA through "environmental factors"... which would explain 2 twins, but only one being gay.(Unless you mean to say that identical twins start with the same DNA, and one, for no reason, "mutates" into having homosexual genes and one does not.)
Another person who answered the question saying that identical twins [B]are
identical in DNA and genetics:
Initially, identical twins share the same DNA. However, the DNA of each twin changes during cell replication.
A study by Psychologist Michael Bailey of Northwestern University and Psychiatrist Richard Pillard of Boston University found that if one sibling is homosexual the likelihood of an identical twin also being homosexual is 52%, the likelihood of a fraternal twin being homosexual is 22%, and the likelihood of a genetic or non-genetic sibling being homosexual is 10%.
All the results are greater than expected by chance.
They also found that in most instances in which identical twins are separated at birth and one twin is homosexual, the other twin is also homosexual.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Initially, identical twins share the same DNA. However, the DNA of each twin changes during cell replication.A study by Psychologist Michael Bailey of Northwestern University and Psychiatrist Richard Pillard of Boston University found that if one sibling is homosexual the likelihood of an identical twin also being homosexual is 52%, the likelihood of a fraternal twin being homosexual is 22%, and the likelihood of a genetic or non-genetic sibling being homosexual is 10%.
All the results are greater than expected by chance.
They also found that in most instances in which identical twins are separated at birth and one twin is homosexual, the other twin is also homosexual.
If homosexuality was truly genetic (and not a cause of the "environmental factors" that the geneticsists you quote say change the genes of identical twins) then they would both be gay.
Not 52% if identicals, or 22% of fraternals. (off topic, but cool info.)
You are saying then that there are random mutations which cause one twin to be gay while the other is not.
I still say that no matter how many dogs or frogs you can see in nature exhibiting homosexual behavior, it is not the natural course of things for a man with a penis,scrotum, and sperm to have sex with another man, rather than with a woman who has a vagina and ovaries.
You say it is natural.
I say that if it was, then 2 twins would always be gay, since they have the same DNA and genetically are identical.
You then say that there are mutations, or changes, in the genetics that might ( "might" being the key word ) make one gay but not the other.
So now you have contradicted yourself again.
It isn't natural, but a change/mutation that occurs on a genetic level.
In any event those changes occur in the "environmental development" of one of the twins. (quote taken from wikipedia... see original post)
If being gay wasn't due to environmental development, and was truly born into someone through genetics,.... then all identical twins should be gay. (or at least more than half/ 52%)
But of course we all know they aren't. Nobody is "born gay".
It is something results in outside influences... i.e. environmental factors.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
If homosexuality was truly genetic (and not a cause of the "environmental factors" that the geneticsists you quote say change the genes of identical twins) then they would both be gay.Not 52% if identicals, or 22% of fraternals. (off topic, but cool info.)
You are saying then that there are random mutations which cause one twin to be gay while the other is not.
I still say that no matter how many dogs or frogs you can see in nature exhibiting homosexual behavior, it is not the natural course of things for a man with a penis,scrotum, and sperm to have sex with another man, rather than with a woman who has a vagina and ovaries.
You say it is natural.
I say that if it was, then 2 twins would always be gay, since they have the same DNA and genetically are identical.
You then say that there are mutations, or changes, in the genetics that might ( "might" being the key word ) make one gay but not the other.
So now you have contradicted yourself again.
It isn't natural, but a change/mutation that occurs on a genetic level.
In any event those changes occur in the "environmental development" of one of the twins. (quote taken from wikipedia... see original post)
If being gay wasn't due to environmental development, and was truly born into someone through genetics,.... then all identical twins should be gay. (or at least more than half/ 52%)
But of course we all know they aren't. Nobody is "born gay".
It is something results in outside influences... i.e. environmental factors.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
But of course we all know they aren't. Nobody is "born gay".It is something results in outside influences... i.e. environmental factors.
Dude... That's been proven false a loooooong time ago. Sure, in many cases, that may be a factor, but in even more cases, children as young as 6, who haven't experienced too much, end up showing signs that they have an attraction to the same sex. And guess what? They grow up and realize they're gay. I take you're not, so why take you're own word for it, when you haven't even experienced it first-hand? Not that I have, though 😕 I'm just following my own advice.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
If homosexuality was truly genetic (and not a cause of the "environmental factors" that the geneticsists you quote say change the genes of identical twins) then they would both be gay.Not 52% if identicals, or 22% of fraternals. (off topic, but cool info.)
You are saying then that there are random mutations which cause one twin to be gay while the other is not.
I still say that no matter how many dogs or frogs you can see in nature exhibiting homosexual behavior, it is not the natural course of things for a man with a penis,scrotum, and sperm to have sex with another man, rather than with a woman who has a vagina and ovaries.
You say it is natural.
I say that if it was, then 2 twins would always be gay, since they have the same DNA and genetically are identical.
You then say that there are mutations, or changes, in the genetics that might ( "might" being the key word ) make one gay but not the other.
So now you have contradicted yourself again.
It isn't natural, but a change/mutation that occurs on a genetic level.
In any event those changes occur in the "environmental development" of one of the twins. (quote taken from wikipedia... see original post)
If being gay wasn't due to environmental development, and was truly born into someone through genetics,.... then all identical twins should be gay. (or at least more than half/ 52%)
But of course we all know they aren't. Nobody is "born gay".
It is something results in outside influences... i.e. environmental factors.
The fact that if one sibling is homosexual, the likelihood of an identical twin also being homosexual is 52% does not seem very compelling, unless one also considers the likelihood of this occuring as expected by chance is 4%.
No "gene identical" persons exist. Identical twins begin with the same DNA. During cell replication, this DNA goes through changes in each individual. The result are two individuals who share much of the same DNA, but are not gene identical.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
COULD be. You are absdolutely right. It COULD be. But, the most important point you make is that even if some one creates some mental exercise to reach back into the mind of a homosexual and pinpoint the exact moment the choice was made, why would there be a problem? It is a choice made by a single human being, and no one else has the right to interfere with that choice.
Also, I noticed that you did this as well. People limit this to whether or not homosexuality alone is chosen. All sexualities will be determined the same way and not just one orientation.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
So, there is nothing wrong with people thinking it's a choice. That is their perogative. However, when that belief crosses the line in the form of insults and actual legislation that effects the lives of people who want nothing more that to live life and be left alone to suffer through it just like the rest of humanity, then a problem arises. Despite overwhelming evidence that homosexuality is caused by several genetic factors and a variety of genes, it is perfectly fine for someone to cling to the belief that it is chosen. But, step outside of your own opinion and tell others they have mental illness that causes them to behave in a degenerate manner is out of line. Telling someone their father molested them in their crib and that has resulted in their lives not being worthy of equal consideration is crossing the line.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Opinions are like assholes, everyone's got them.
Originally posted by Bardiel13
Dude... That's been proven false a loooooong time ago. Sure, in many cases, that may be a factor, but in even more cases, children as young as 6, who haven't experienced too much, end up showing signs that they have an attraction to the same sex. And guess what? They grow up and realize they're gay. I take you're not, so why take you're own word for it, when you haven't even experienced it first-hand? Not that I have, though 😕 I'm just following my own advice.
Originally posted by Eis
What environmental factors? I've never been raped or abused of in any way, I was born in a closed catholic conservative town my childhood up to when I was 12 was completely normal yet here I am, gay.
Maybe it is was an experience? You said up until 12 your life was normal. Maybe that change facilitated something.
Originally posted by Eis
What environmental factors? I've never been raped or abused of in any way, I was born in a closed catholic conservative town my childhood up to when I was 12 was completely normal yet here I am, gay.
Possibly you're exhibiting some form of rebelliousness. Perhaps you grew up in a single family home, perhaps your mother over nutured you to the point where you identified and emulated her behaviors more than your fathers..who knows exactly what went wrong..I'm sure if you gave us an detailed description of your life..we could determine what "environmental factors" enabled you to make the choice.