Homosexuality: Chosen or Genetic?

Bad boys need to go play in traffic.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Once again, I have to ask those who subscribe to the notion that homosexuality is a learned or taught behavior follow up that claim with some evidence from their own childhoods that an illuminate the rest of us on teh subject. I mean, I'm all for evidence that homosexuality is a practice in instructional behavior, but I don't see it....especially given my own childhood experiences. And that shold be one thing that's considered by so many of the people that assume it's taught; they themselves can never provide examples of this education. They can bloat themselves up and act all high and mighty about it, but they never seem to have the evidence to back it up. For every example of "straight-raising", there's a comprable example of how a homosexual recieved the same instruction, encouragement, discipline, condemnation, etc... but reached a different conclusion.

So, stop being stupid, back up your bullshit claims, and stop waiting until the thread has reached a point where you can toss out the same disproven, bullshit like it's the first time someone has raised the issue and act like you're a genius for having thought of it.

You're asking for too much. It will play out exactly how you put it, in 4-5 pages after the "Prove your claims" challenge has been buried, someone will repost "Homosexuality is a choice!"... I, yourself and others will repost proofs and examples of how it isn't a choice and round and round we'll go.

Originally posted by FeceMan
Bad boys need to go play in traffic.

OMG ! LIKE THOSE RANDOM STREET ORGIES ! droolio

BLISS ! droolio

OH BLISS !!!!!droolio

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Did I ever say that was my goal ?

I don't know, did you? I guess not. But my point is that dooling smilies over a picture of a hot guy is one thing, from time to time. It's another to derail and distract in every thread you post because you want to be obnoxious.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Once again, I have to ask those who subscribe to the notion that homosexuality is a learned or taught behavior follow up that claim with some evidence from their own childhoods that an illuminate the rest of us on teh subject. I mean, I'm all for evidence that homosexuality is a practice in instructional behavior, but I don't see it....especially given my own childhood experiences. And that shold be one thing that's considered by so many of the people that assume it's taught; they themselves can never provide examples of this education. They can bloat themselves up and act all high and mighty about it, but they never seem to have the evidence to back it up. For every example of "straight-raising", there's a comprable example of how a homosexual recieved the same instruction, encouragement, discipline, condemnation, etc... but reached a different conclusion.

So, stop being stupid, back up your bullshit claims, and stop waiting until the thread has reached a point where you can toss out the same disproven, bullshit like it's the first time someone has raised the issue and act like you're a genius for having thought of it.

First, I have never stated that homosexuality is learned, only that I believe it to be learned.

Second, there is not evidence that it is genetic, or rather a state that was not learned. The evidence shows that there may be a predisposition towards, but the evidence is inconclusive. Given this, a stance to an absolute on the question in either direction is not supported scientifically.

From a purely scientific stance, I would state that I do not know the answer.

As to your, and it appears Captain Fantastic's, belief that it is not a learned, and the fact that I do not hold your position, and personal experience, as strong enough to sway my opinion, I will go into this again here. Often people feel they did not choose or learn various behaviors, a nervous twitch, the manner in which they chew food, the body language accompanying their verbal communications, etc. The fact that you have no recollection of learning having occurred does not necessitate learning having never occurred. Much learning occurs due to nearly imperceptible approval and disapproval body language. Much occurs due to various actions and reactions to behavior. The core of a behavior analyst's philosophy is the law of effect:

"Behavior is a function of its consequences"

Covert or overt, behavior is a function of its consequences. You have asked me, Urizen, what separates man from other living organisms (not in those words, but I believe this was your question), the answer is that man has extremely few fixed action patterns, or instincts. Man is a learning machine, his genetics do not dictate his behaviors. The only fixed action pattern that I am aware of is the suckling response in an infant. Man is capable of rising above other organisms due to the fact that little if anything in his behavior is genetically set.

So, in conclusion, it is only my belief that it is a choice, there is no absolute scientific backing for this stance, yet some of science does suggest the probability of learning while other science has suggested the probability of genetics. My stance is as scientifically valid as yours, I do not discredit the stance of genetics, but I believe that genetics do not play a role in sexuality. This is from the perspective I have through my education, not through my religion, regardless of my religious stance on homosexuality.

And to add:

Provide some evidence for the genetic nature of homosexuality, because if homosexuality is not learned, it is genetic. The evidence thus far is inconclusive as to whether or not genetics plays a role or if learning plays a role, or a combination. Scientifically speaking the proper response is this:

"There may be a genetic predisposition towards homosexuality"

not:

"There is a genetic predisposition towards homosexuality"

A question Regret... If homosexuality is a choice and/or is a learned behavior, does the same apply to heterosexuality? Are straight people making a willful choice in finding the opposite sex sexually attractive and/or were straight people conditioned to do so?

"There may be a genetic predisposition towards homosexuality" I agree with this stance, but I weight more heavily on the "may be a" aspect than others to a "most likey is a".

As far as possible proof... Taking a look at the animal kingdom, the drive to reproduce is inherent in animals, certain chemical reactions occur and males generally seek out females. This leads to the conclusion that sex and sexual attraction is inborn and genetic.

Well, Regret...since you posted your response, I will post mine:

So what kind of choice do you think is involved when pertaining to homosexuality ?

Earlier you argued, that instead of there being one solid choice where Homosexuality begins, you argued that there may have been a series of choices that lead to the homosexual tendency, and/or a series of choices which PROMOTE the homosexual tendency.

Seems logical, however, that disregards the probability that factors like environment, genetics, etc. or any factors beyond the individual's control played any role in the sexual make up.

Also, you have to understand that Sexuality is NOT black and white. There aren't just STRAIGHT OR GAY people....in fact, statistics, studies, and interviews have revealed that many straight men have had homosexual fantasies or curiosities atleast a few times in thier lifespan. Same has been said for Gay men in regards to women. Also, Straight women have a higher tendency to experiment with other women, due to the DECREASE in social stigma of homosexuality.

So you must factor in EVERYTHING....not just your preferred conclusion.

Also, Sexual Orientation being defined by sexual behavior is not a trustworthy or guarantee or defining or describing the sexual orientation accurately. Many many Gay men have had sex with women, but not for the reasons a striaght man would. Many gay men have had sex with women, and have dated numerous women for the sake of covering up

Many gay men have even went so far as to MARRY women in hopes that they could "learn" to be straight. Such attempts have failed, and there is much proof of this already.

The only possibly conclusion this leads to, is that sexual orientation is best described by PREFERENCE and not by sexual behavior itself.

There ARE GAY VIRGINS Regret...this is not speculation, this is not propaganda, this is total truth. Gay Youth Centers who help Gay kids feel accepted, MOST OF THE TIME SHELTER VIRGINS.

I knew I was bisexual BEFORE I started having sex...I swear to you and everything I love, I am not making this up.

Also, I assure you that I was not molested by an older man, I did not go to an "all boys school", I was raised by my mother AND father, my parents WERE in fact homophobic, I went to a catholic school which was generally very conservative, I was always taught that homosexuality was wrong and disgusting, and I in fact was Homophobic myself throughout junior high school.

But I'm a fkn homo (Well bisexual technically, but u know what i mean)

How the hell did that happen ?

Originally posted by Regret
Urizen brought this post to my attention, and I have decided to respond here and to him personally.

First, I have never stated that homosexuality [b]is learned, only that I believe it to be learned.

Second, there is not evidence that it is genetic, or rather a state that was not learned. The evidence shows that there may be a predisposition towards, but the evidence is inconclusive. Given this, a stance to an absolute on the question in either direction is not supported scientifically.

From a purely scientific stance, I would state that I do not know the answer.

As to your, and it appears Captain Fantastic's, belief that it is not a learned, and the fact that I do not hold your position, and personal experience, as strong enough to sway my opinion, I will go into this again here. Often people feel they did not choose or learn various behaviors, a nervous twitch, the manner in which they chew food, the body language accompanying their verbal communications, etc. The fact that you have no recollection of learning having occurred does not necessitate learning having never occurred. Much learning occurs due to nearly imperceptible approval and disapproval body language. Much occurs due to various actions and reactions to behavior. The core of a behavior analyst's philosophy is the law of effect:

"Behavior is a function of its consequences"

Covert or overt, behavior is a function of its consequences. You have asked me, Urizen, what separates man from other living organisms (not in those words, but I believe this was your question), the answer is that man has extremely few fixed action patterns, or instincts. Man is a learning machine, his genetics do not dictate his behaviors. The only fixed action pattern that I am aware of is the suckling response in an infant. Man is capable of rising above other organisms due to the fact that little if anything in his behavior is genetically set.

So, in conclusion, it is only my belief that it is a choice, there is no absolute scientific backing for this stance, yet some of science does suggest the probability of learning while other science has suggested the probability of genetics. My stance is as scientifically valid as yours, I do not discredit the stance of genetics, but I believe that genetics do not play a role in sexuality. This is from the perspective I have through my education, not through my religion, regardless of my religious stance on homosexuality.

And to add:

Provide some evidence for the genetic nature of homosexuality, because if homosexuality is not learned, it is genetic. The evidence thus far is inconclusive as to whether or not genetics plays a role or if learning plays a role, or a combination. Scientifically speaking the proper response is this:

"There may be a genetic predisposition towards homosexuality"

not:

"There is a genetic predisposition towards homosexuality" [/B]

Your education? Fine, you can dismiss your religion as a source for your opinion, but you need to cite some evidence of how you were taught to be straight. If you are certain that it's a learned behavior, then you can provide some evidence of how it's taught. (that's assuming you can get past the irrelevant "is vs. may be" scenario)

I decided that I would try to respond here, I'll make the time. I probably will not respond through PM though. I responded here because I thought Captain Fantastic should be a part of the discussion since it is his post that began its current incarnation.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Well, Regret...since you posted your response, I will post mine:

So what kind of choice do you think is involved when pertaining to homosexuality ?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Earlier you argued, that instead of there being one solid choice where Homosexuality begins, you argued that there may have been a series of choices that lead to the homosexual tendency, and/or a series of choices which PROMOTE the homosexual tendency.

Seems logical, however, that disregards the probability that factors like environment, genetics, etc. or any factors beyond the individual's control played any role in the sexual make up.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Also, you have to understand that Sexuality is NOT black and white. There aren't just STRAIGHT OR GAY people....in fact, statistics, studies, and interviews have revealed that many straight men have had homosexual fantasies or curiosities atleast a few times in thier lifespan. Same has been said for Gay men in regards to women. Also, Straight women have a higher tendency to experiment with other women, due to the DECREASE in social stigma of homosexuality.

So you must factor in EVERYTHING....not just your preferred conclusion.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
[Also, Sexual Orientation being defined by sexual behavior is not a trustworthy or guarantee or defining or describing the sexual orientation accurately. Many many Gay men have had sex with women, but not for the reasons a striaght man would. Many gay men have had sex with women, and have dated numerous women for the sake of covering up

Many gay men have even went so far as to MARRY women in hopes that they could "learn" to be straight. Such attempts have failed, and there is much proof of this already.

The only possibly conclusion this leads to, is that sexual orientation is best described by PREFERENCE and not by sexual behavior itself.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
[There ARE GAY VIRGINS Regret...this is not speculation, this is not propaganda, this is total truth. Gay Youth Centers who help Gay kids feel accepted, MOST OF THE TIME SHELTER VIRGINS.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I knew I was bisexual BEFORE I started having sex...I swear to you and everything I love, I am not making this up.

Also, I assure you that I was not molested by an older man, I did not go to an "all boys school", I was raised by my mother AND father, my parents WERE in fact homophobic, I went to a catholic school which was generally very conservative, I was always taught that homosexuality was wrong and disgusting, and I in fact was Homophobic myself throughout junior high school.

But I'm a fkn homo (Well bisexual technically, but u know what i mean)

How the hell did that happen ?

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Your education? Fine, you can dismiss your religion as a source for your opinion, but you need to cite some evidence of how you were taught to be straight. If you are certain that it's a learned behavior, then you can provide some evidence of how it's taught. (that's assuming you can get past the irrelevant "is vs. may be" scenario)

Originally posted by Regret
You keep asking me to explain your personal sexuality,

NO That is not the case. Don't hide behind your inability to answer the question. No one is asking you to explain their sexuality to them, they're asking you to explain yours to the rest of us. If you can't explain how you were taught to be straight, then you can't assume that people are taught to be gay. That's just ignorant. And the really funny part is that I can cite dozens of examples of how I was taught to "be straight" according to social stereotypes, but you can't. I've got no problem with you sharing your opinion, but a reasonable request has been made of you and you have yet to even attempt to address it.

Originally posted by Regret
Homosexuality is only another behavior, not some grand behavior that defies the explanations of how other behaviors are learned.

And you assume that heterosexuality is beyond being learned?

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
And you assume that heterosexuality is beyond being learned?

Originally posted by Regret
I decided that I would try to respond here, I'll make the time. I probably will not respond through PM though. I responded here because I thought Captain Fantastic should be a part of the discussion since it is his post that began its current incarnation.

Thank you for responding to my post on such short notice 🙂

Originally posted by Regret
Perhaps simple play behaviors, perhaps which friends were chosen. Perhaps the choice of foods you ate the morning you played with the first female child in your early years that resulted in a horrible experience with a girl. There are infinite possible choices that would eventually lead to homosexual behaviors. I do not think that the choice was, "Oh, that boy is cute", or anything like that, it was subtle and extremely innocent.

But their not REAL choices Regret...that is all just cause and effect. You can't validly argue that Homosexuality is a CHOICE due to a series of responses through actions.

Originally posted by Regret
No, it in no way disregards environment, genetics or any other factors. External influences always impact decisions and learning, there is absolutely no means of avoiding these variables. Choice is not devoid of impact by external variables, it is nearly exactly the opposite. Choice is current environment, physiological state and history.

Choice is a concious decision to do,say, or become something. No one intentionally aims to become a homosexual .... no onee CHOOSES thier sexual attractions..no one CHOOSES thier consequences......Your argument is invalid 👇

Originally posted by Regret
A decrease in social stigma resulting in an increased tendency points directly to homosexual behavior being learned, not genetic. How do you know that they had these fantasies? They were in your company and the discussion led that direction, given your approval of the subject, they went further, you shaping their fantasy by nods, agreement, approval, perhaps any number of factors. Memories can be shaped by those the individual is speaking to, there is ample evidence of these "implanted memories." The individual speaking of them is not devoid of this occurring, and the phenomena was not intentional when it occurred during psychological research, people do it daily. The fact that the study was looking for homosexual fantasies shifts the probability of the response in the direction of a response in the affirmative, research signal detection for more information there. Signal detection is a strong concept currently in sensation and psychophysics.

1) I never argued it was genetic. I said it wasn't a choice. A DECREASE in social stigma allows for the freedom of one to act upon thier desires or curiosities...it does not mean they chose thier desires or curiosities.

2) This is where you make less and less sense.....how can I convince someone that they had gay fantasies, if they didnt ? 🤨

Originally posted by Regret
Preference is only discerned by verbal response or by behavior. You keep stating that others must be the way you believe them to be, but there is no evidence that they are, in fact, as you claim. You cannot speak to the covert behaviors (thoughts etc.) of others, they may not be what you believe them to be.

👇

SIMPLY UNTRUE Sexual Preference is determined by one's personal recognition of thier sexual desire.....verbal response and/or action only reveals thier preference to another person.

Lack of Awareness does not render something non-existant, Mr. Behavioralist. Remember that.

I have no evidense of a Virgin being Gay or of another person having a homosexual preference ?

Talk to any Gay person.....Ask Mr. Fantastic..Ask Adam Poe....Go to a gay club, and talk to them there. Ask any lesbian, ask any homo......go on, I DARE YOU.....

Let's see what responses repeat themselves......

Originally posted by Regret
This does not show evidence of a "gay virgin", it merely shows that kids go to a place where gay behaviors are encouraged. It is speculation due to the impact of environment and external factors on behavior. Show me the gay virgin that has never stated that they have tendencies this way, that knows no individuals that are gay.

1) Go to a Gay Club, a Gay Chatroom, anything where you'll find a bunch of homos, and ask them if they were homo before they had sex.....

2) Shelters for Gay Teenagers does NOT encourage homosexuality, it GIVES Gay Teenagers who were kicked out of thier homes and schools a place to stay and survive. INFACT, many Gay Shelters are RUN by CHRISTIANS.....

Originally posted by Regret
You keep asking me to explain your personal sexuality, such is impossible. Your history is long and not even entirely at your disposal to disclose, I could not and would not assume to be capable of stating "why" you are bisexual. Your parents are only a part of your life experience, and their homophobia a smaller part. There are infinite paths that could have led to your sexuality.

But I did not CHOOSE IT.....I think we can come to that agreement already...sheesh....

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
NO That is not the case. Don't hide behind your inability to answer the question. No one is asking you to explain their sexuality to them, they're asking you to explain yours to the rest of us. If you can't explain how you were taught to be straight, then you can't assume that people are taught to be gay. That's just ignorant. And the really funny part is that I can cite dozens of examples of how I was taught to "be straight" according to social stereotypes, but you can't. I've got no problem with you sharing your opinion, but a reasonable request has been made of you and you have yet to even attempt to address it.

It isn't a matter of "how". Also, I do not use the term "taught" I use the term "learn", teaching implies some directed attempt at such. Learning does not require teaching. All behaviors are learned, this is a fact. What you seem to be asking is "who" and "how" was sexuality taught, life experience and interaction shapes behavior through learning, it is an extremely low ratio between behaviors are actively taught and those learned through experience. How did I learn to be heterosexual, my experiences have shaped my behavior such that heterosexual responses are the responses I give. How did you learn to be homosexual (or bi if that is what you are), your experiences have shaped your behavior such that homosexual responses are the responses you give. You oversimplify the issue by assuming that someone can give you a detailed account of the experiences leading to such a complex group of behaviors. Tell me how man evolved from a bacteria, such occurred, but explain it, explain to me how a bacteria became a man. It is a question of the same scope.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Thank you for responding to my post on such short notice 🙂

(I removed the rest of the response as, given what I believe to be the actual source of disagreement, it may be irrelevant to our discussion.)

Originally posted by Regret
Urizen does ask this, and did in his post.

It isn't a matter of "how". Also, I do not use the term "taught" I use the term "learn", teaching implies some directed attempt at such. Learning does not require teaching. All behaviors are learned, this is a fact. What you seem to be asking is "who" and "how" was sexuality taught, life experience and interaction shapes behavior through learning, it is an extremely low ratio between behaviors are actively taught and those learned through experience. How did I learn to be heterosexual, my experiences have shaped my behavior such that heterosexual responses are the responses I give. How did you learn to be homosexual (or bi if that is what you are), your experiences have shaped your behavior such that homosexual responses are the responses you give. You oversimplify the issue by assuming that someone can give you a detailed account of the experiences leading to such a complex group of behaviors. Tell me how man evolved from a bacteria, such occurred, but explain it, explain to me how a bacteria became a man. It is a question of the same scope.

No, it is not a question of teh same scope. You are asking me to correlate learned sexuality with the theory of evolution? How is asking you to cite examples of this "learned" behavior any more of an oversimplification than you saying that homosexuality is learned? Do you hojnestly believe that homosexuals learned to be attracted to others of the same sex from some observation? If you don't think that heterosexuality is beyond being learned, then tell us how you learned to be straight? Urizen may have been playing the devil's advocate, but I doubt he's asking you to explain his sexuality to him. But that doesn't excuse the fact that you refuse to back up your cliams.

Originally posted by Regret
Lol, the burden of evidence is currently on the genetic side.

hmm...i think the burden is on both sides, as this is not a "does it or doesnt it exist" debate but rather an "either or" debate. just my 2 cents

Originally posted by Regret
Then our real disagreement is on what choice is, not on whether choice occurred. I would agree with you, but I believe all choice is controlled by current context and history of experience. Choice without these controls is nearly nonexistent. Our concepts of choice and freedom are not the same between you and I, and this does not allow a truly clear discussion as when I use these terms you take the meaning as you understand the terms and not as I am meaning their use.

Indeed it seems that is the major problem, although I cannot help but wondor if part of the reason you disregarded the rest of my argument, is because you found yourself somewhat stumped by what I had to say...

Oh well, moving on......

You mentioned possibilities as to what may or may not the the cause of homosexual tendencies...let's evaluate:

1)Perhaps simple play behaviors

Like....?

2)perhaps which friends were chosen

So it's thier fault ?

3)Perhaps the choice of foods you ate the morning

😆 😆 So rice and beans makes people gay ?

you played with the first female child in your early years that resulted in a horrible experience with a girl.

NEver happened....I had a pretty nice childhood, and most straight guys HAVE had a very horrible experience with women..that never made them gay....

There are infinite possible choices that would eventually lead to homosexual behaviors. I do not think that the choice was, "Oh, that boy is cute", or anything like that, it was subtle and extremely innocent.

Would you say it was my fault that I am Bisexual ?

Originally posted by Regret
Second, there is not evidence that it is genetic, or rather a state that was not learned.

This argument commits the logic fallacy of Argument From Ignorance.

Originally posted by Regret
The evidence shows that there may be a predisposition towards, but the evidence is inconclusive.

This argument commits the logic fallacy of Slothful Induction.

Originally posted by Regret
Often people feel they did not choose or learn various behaviors, a nervous twitch, the manner in which they chew food, the body language accompanying their verbal communications, etc. The fact that you have no recollection of learning having occurred does not necessitate learning having never occurred. Much learning occurs due to nearly imperceptible approval and disapproval body language. Much occurs due to various actions and reactions to behavior. The core of a behavior analyst's philosophy is the law of effect:

"Behavior is a function of its consequences"

Covert or overt, behavior is a function of its consequences. You have asked me, Urizen, what separates man from other living organisms (not in those words, but I believe this was your question), the answer is that man has extremely few fixed action patterns, or instincts. Man is a learning machine, his genetics do not dictate his behaviors. The only fixed action pattern that I am aware of is the suckling response in an infant. Man is capable of rising above other organisms due to the fact that little if anything in his behavior is genetically set.

First, psychologists define homosexuality as “an enduring emotional, romantic, and sexual attraction to members of the same sex,” not as a behavior.

Second, according to extensive research by the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychoanalytic Association, and the American Psychological Association there is currently no scientific evidence that sexual orientation is learned.

Originally posted by Regret
This is from the perspective I have through my education, not through my religion, regardless of my religious stance on homosexuality.

* See above.

Originally posted by Regret
Provide some evidence for the genetic nature of homosexuality, because if homosexuality is not learned, it is genetic

Ask and you will receive.