Originally posted by Devil KingAll I hear are crickets.
...and that's all you'll ever really hear, when you ask that question, that or a B.S. copout.
I have asked that many a time, when talking with someone who's of the "it's a choice" stance. My favorite was, 'hetrosexuality is normal, gays choose to reject it.'
Originally posted by Robtard
...and that's all you'll ever really hear, when you ask that question, that or a B.S. copout.I have asked that many a time, when talking with someone who's of the "it's a choice" stance. My favorite was, 'hetrosexuality is normal, gays choose to reject it.'
Well, as with many homosexuals, sports have never interested me. I like to play sports, particularly baseball, but I've never understood the hero worship that goes into watching other people play sports. It just strikes me as living vicariously through someone else. The same could be said with any number of things, such as movies or politics. But, I wouldn't say that my logic was genetically motivated. And it's situations like that were people don't seem to be able to pick up on the disconnect.
I hope that made as much sense as it did when I thought it.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
If the urge to copulate is genetic, then there would be no asexuals.
That is an illogical statement.
Asexual species are programmed via their genetics to reproduce asexually and sexual species are programmed via their genetics to reproduce sexually.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
If Perhaps you should say what it is that you mean.
I meant exactly what I posted. You want me to mean "design" as a religious thing and I don't...or am I mistaken?
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
If the urge to copulate is incidental to the reproduction, then people would not participate in recreational sex.
I loved that article on pheromones that you posted. Awesome stuff.
I have already addressed this in point #2. Even if the couple (doesn't matter if it is a homosexual or heterosexual couple.) is not aware that they are giving into the primal urges of reproduction, it still doesn't change the fact that they were programmed to do that. Also, maybe there is a reason why humans have sex for more than just pleasure. I think statistically compared to other mammals, we have a low success rate per copulation session. We may actually be programmed to have sex so much because of that; kind of like a balanced evolutionary behavior.
I say that because we get a flood of hormones-after we have sex-released from the hypothalamus, we are almost at the mercy of those hormones as we constantly crave, on subconscious level, the receptor modulation from these hormones. We also get a group of those hormones released when we are in love. (Doesn't matter if you are homosexual or heterosexual...if you are indeed in love with someone, those hormones are released.) We actually crave those hormones on a subconscious level as well...indeed, you could say that if they right things click with the person that we love, we literally become addicted to them, chemically. (That is one of the reasons people loathe in agony when they break up...we are still in love with them both psychologically and chemically...our body doesn't stop loving the person after we break up...we crave the hormones on a subconscious level.)
We are programmed, genetically, for all of this. This craving is nature's way of keeping a couple together long enough to raise a baby past 2. (Generally, the receptors are down regulated and the hormones lose their punch because there is less and less places to attach to. We are supposed to be attached to our partner, psychologically, enough to not want to break up by then. You have to really try at a relationship after the first 2 years because you don't really have that chemical punch anymore to help.)
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
[list=1][*]This does not change the fact that the vast majority of sexual acts follow from the urge to copulate, not a desire to reproduce.[*]Again, this is what is being disputed. Repeating that an unsubstantiated conclusion is true does not make it so.[/list]
I disagree. It is very simple and I really don't know what to tell you. I apologize that my opinion that is based on evolution is unsubstantiated...but it seems like a "no brainer" to me. When we learn more about genetics, my opinion will be substantiated then. Until then, it is pretty much a fact that our genes determine all of that sexual stuff that you think is unsubstantiated. Would it help if I had a geneticist agree with me?
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
A homosexual participating in opposite-sex sexual experimentation during adolescence is not any more a heterosexual than a heterosexual participating in same-sex sexual experimentation during adolescence is a homosexual.
I think you missed my point, which is understandable.
Here is my opinion on this.
I feel that humans have such higher brain functions that we can choose things that we are not programmed to do. I believe our minds are much stronger than the chemical urges out bodies have. I really do believe that someone can overcome homosexuality/heterosexuality with only their mind, regardless of what they were programmed to do at birth. I also believe that we can condition ourselves, subconsciously, to react differently to things that would appear to be genetic/biological markers. (Pheromones, for example. Also, other hormones. I believe that someone can be heterosexual, get all of those hormones released when they are in love with someone of the opposite sex, and then stop being a heterosexual and fall in love again with someone of the same sex and have the same chemical reactions as before...meaning that even chemically, they are homosexual....and vice versa.) This idea of "conditioning" is similar to the placebo affect...the mind is a powerful thing. Do not let that confuse you and make you think that I don't think the pheromones article you posted was to taken at face value: I think that we react to pheromones, most of the time, the way we were born to react to them. I also believe we can change that.
I am a strong believer in choice, as you can see.
Originally posted by Devil King
Well, as with many homosexuals, sports have never interested me. I like to play sports, particularly baseball, but I've never understood the hero worship that goes into watching other people play sports. It just strikes me as living vicariously through someone else. The same could be said with any number of things, such as movies or politics. But, I wouldn't say that my logic was genetically motivated. And it's situations like that were people don't seem to be able to pick up on the disconnect.I hope that made as much sense as it did when I thought it.
Not sure if the "gay = no sports" thing is entirely true, as I've seen many the gay raging sports fan. I'm straight, yet I've never been much of a sports fan, I absolutely do not understand the point of people wearing jerseys of their favorite team/player, face/body painting and the general tomfoolery exhibited by the sports-lover crowd. Sure I enjoy watching a good boxing/MMA match and I'll wake up at ungodly hours to watch a soccer game during the World Cup series, but I don't go crazy if the team I like wins/loses.
Yeah, I did and I know your "sports" point was just an example to your point.
Originally posted by Schecter
imho its simple coincidence when parents suspect a kid as being homosexual based on personality and turn out to be correct, when weighed against all the incorrect assessments. i dont think there is any way to tell until the kid comes of age and experiences sexual attraction. i believe its more about chemistry/hormones and little to do with character traits. like i said though: IMOi cant fathom the idea of choice though, and invite anyone to document their own experience of choosing which sex to be attracted to.
Are you calling my mother a liar? Because I'll eKick your ass!
Originally posted by dadudemon
That is an illogical statement.Asexual species are programmed via their genetics to reproduce asexually and sexual species are programmed via their genetics to reproduce sexually.
Yet, there are asexual persons. Hence, if the urge to copulate is genetic, then there would be no asexuals.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I meant exactly what I posted. You want me to mean "design" as a religious thing and I don't...or am I mistaken?
If you mean “the result of millions of years of natural selection,” then do not use the term design. Hence, you should say what it is that you mean.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I have already addressed this in point #2. Even if the couple (doesn't matter if it is a homosexual or heterosexual couple.) is not aware that they are giving into the primal urges of reproduction, it still doesn't change the fact that they were programmed to do that. Also, maybe there is a reason why humans have sex for more than just pleasure. I think statistically compared to other mammals, we have a low success rate per copulation session. We may actually be programmed to have sex so much because of that; kind of like a balanced evolutionary behavior.
Even if we presume this anecdote to be true, it does not necessarily support your conclusion:
Even if a couple (heterosexual or homosexual) is unaware that they are submitting to the urge to copulate, it does not change that they are being biologically-driven to do so.
Perhaps humans have a lower rate of success as compared to other mammals with regard to reproduction, because humans are one of two mammalian species who do not have sex solely for reproductive purposes.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree. It is very simple and I really don't know what to tell you. I apologize that my opinion that is based on evolution is unsubstantiated...but it seems like a "no brainer" to me. When we learn more about genetics, my opinion will be substantiated then. Until then, it is pretty much a fact that our genes determine all of that sexual stuff that you think is unsubstantiated. Would it help if I had a geneticist agree with me?
That you presume heterosexuality to be caused by biological and genetic factors, despite no biological or genetic indicators of heterosexuality having been identified is the point.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I think you missed my point, which is understandable.Here is my opinion on this.
I feel that humans have such higher brain functions that we can choose things that we are not programmed to do. I believe our minds are much stronger than the chemical urges out bodies have. I really do believe that someone can overcome homosexuality/heterosexuality with only their mind, regardless of what they were programmed to do at birth. I also believe that we can condition ourselves, subconsciously, to react differently to things that would appear to be genetic/biological markers. (Pheromones, for example. Also, other hormones. I believe that someone can be heterosexual, get all of those hormones released when they are in love with someone of the opposite sex, and then stop being a heterosexual and fall in love again with someone of the same sex and have the same chemical reactions as before...meaning that even chemically, they are homosexual....and vice versa.) This idea of "conditioning" is similar to the placebo affect...the mind is a powerful thing. Do not let that confuse you and make you think that I don't think the pheromones article you posted was to taken at face value: I think that we react to pheromones, most of the time, the way we were born to react to them. I also believe we can change that.
I am a strong believer in choice, as you can see.
Experts do not appear to agree with you:
“Gay Men Respond Differently to Pheromones” Randolph E. Schmid, Associated Press"Our findings support the contention that gender preference has a biological component that is reflected in both the production of different body odors and in the perception of and response to body odors,'' said neuroscientist Charles Wysocki, who led the study.
It's hard to see how a simple choice to be gay or lesbian would influence the production of body odor, he said.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I feel that humans have such higher brain functions that we can choose things that we are not programmed to do. I believe our minds are much stronger than the chemical urges out bodies have. I really do believe that someone can overcome homosexuality/heterosexuality with only their mind, regardless of what they were programmed to do at birth. I also believe that we can condition ourselves, subconsciously, to react differently to things that would appear to be genetic/biological markers. (Pheromones, for example. Also, other hormones. I believe that someone can be heterosexual, get all of those hormones released when they are in love with someone of the opposite sex, and then stop being a heterosexual and fall in love again with someone of the same sex and have the same chemical reactions as before...meaning that even chemically, they are homosexual....and vice versa.) This idea of "conditioning" is similar to the placebo affect...the mind is a powerful thing. Do not let that confuse you and make you think that I don't think the pheromones article you posted was to taken at face value: I think that we react to pheromones, most of the time, the way we were born to react to them. I also believe we can change that.I am a strong believer in choice, as you can see.
I've seen/heard of several Christian "support" groups, where they claim they can help you overcome 'your' homosexuality, through willpower and praying to Jesus.
Years ago, I used to work with a gay guy, who despite acknowledging his homosexuality, he thought it was "both wrong and disgusting" (his very own words) because of his religious convictions, so he tried to "cure" himself, he failed. I think he has since then learned to accept his lot in life, at least I hope he did.
Google "Curing homosexuality", you'll get several hits of these sites/groups. They're all a joke, imo.
Do you think the reverse is possible; do you think you could choose/will yourself into being homosexual?
Originally posted by Deja~vu
I hesitate to enter this thread, but I had read that when brains were examined between homosexuals and heterosexuals there was a difference. What was not told was did the behavior alter the brain or did the brain it's self explain the behavior difference.
Logic would dictate, that homosexuality doesn't cause a change to the brain, after the fact. Meaning, if you had gay sex, then your brain makeup would change as a result, sounds implausible
Edit: Should have really said "found the same sex sexually attractive", instead of "had gay sex".
Originally posted by Robtard
I've seen/heard of several Christian "support" groups, where they claim they can help you overcome 'your' homosexuality, through willpower and praying to Jesus.Years ago, I used to work with a gay guy, who despite acknowledging his homosexuality, he thought it was "both wrong and disgusting" (his very own words) because of his religious convictions, so he tried to "cure" himself, he failed. I think he has since then learned to accept his lot in life, at least I hope he did.
Google "Curing homosexuality", you'll get several hits of these sites/groups. They're all a joke, imo.
Do you think the reverse is possible; do you think you could choose/will yourself into being homosexual?
I think you didn't interpret my post correctly. I think you are thinking that I feel that homosexuality is a curse and can be cured. I did not say that in anyway shape or form. I said....
"I really do believe that someone can overcome homosexuality/heterosexuality with only their mind, regardless of what they were programmed to do at birth. "
I believe the mind is more powerful than most people think it is.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I don't get the whole if desire to copulate is genetic or biologically based there would be no X on the Kinsey scale thing. Why exactly?On the flip side the whole consciously choosing to change body chemistry thing seems like hooey, utter hooey even.
That is wrong..."utter"ly wrong. You can stress yourself out and cause yourself to release lots of cortisol. When an athlete defeats another athlete in competition, they release testosterone shortly following the event. (This has evolutionary implications...don't tell that to ID people.) Even thinking positively can change various hormones in your body. All of these can cause actual physical manifestations and be measured. I hold the opinion that one can CHOSE to be gay or straight if that is what they want because their mind is more powerful than their genetics. I also believe that (sorry Bardock42, I have to use your idea) the environment one is in can determine sexual orientation, in total defiance of one's genetics.
Who is to say that someone cannot change their sensitivity to pheromones? How could we determine that someone couldn't change their sensitivity without contaminating the test subject? I guess it could be possible if they were tested at 7 years old and then 22 years old...but that would take a while to test and that wouldn't hit the data the way I would want it to. Maybe if they were tested at 13 years old and then 22 years old. (Basically, I would want to test someone's pheromone sensitivity when they say they are heterosexual or homosexual and then test them again when they say they are the opposite AND also give them enough time to determine their sexual orientation and be able to "live with it" for several years.)
I think many other things could be tested like this. In the end, I would want to gather many many psychological/genetic profiles for each person on the planet and run the data against each other and against the individual's own metrics and draw many conclusions from that data and then in turn draw many meta-analysis so that we can find out as much information as possible and have a nice warm cup of STFU about this stuff and start putting more of those brilliant minds to working on faster than light travel.
Neither that stress can activate corticol secretion, nor the elevation of testosterone levels due to competition provide any basis to an assertion that one can consciously alter neuroendocrine function. I haven't seen anything in the literature showing that thinking happy thoughts could cure hypothyroidism. Hormones aren't Pokemon, there's no "Cortisol, I choose you."
Originally posted by Devil King
Well, as with many homosexuals, sports have never interested me. I like to play sports, particularly baseball, but I've never understood the hero worship that goes into watching other people play sports. It just strikes me as living vicariously through someone else. The same could be said with any number of things, such as movies or politics. But, I wouldn't say that my logic was genetically motivated. And it's situations like that were people don't seem to be able to pick up on the disconnect.I hope that made as much sense as it did when I thought it.
That's interesting...I have gay friends, some of them hate sports, other's love it...
Aslo my gay friends do love the action, superhero, violent blood-and-gore movies, too. Some hate romantic comdies and the such. Most would say homosexuals aren't into that sort of stuff.
There is a huge diversity in the characteristics of homosexuals, so it seems that there is only one characteristic for being gay: liking the same sex. You don't have to hate sports and love romantic comedies. Not all homosexuals can be labeled the same. There are heterosexuals out there who seem more 'gay' and flamboyant than homosexuals.
I don't believe homosexuality is chosen, that's total bulshit. But I'm not sure it's genetic. I think it's just the way one's mind develops and the environment they're bought up in.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I think you didn't interpret my post correctly. I think you are thinking that I feel that homosexuality is a curse and can be cured. I did not say that in anyway shape or form. I said...."I really do believe that someone can overcome homosexuality/heterosexuality with only their mind, regardless of what they were programmed to do at birth. "
I believe the mind is more powerful than most people think it is.
No, I understood exactly what you meant; I also did not imply any negatives such as you thinking it a "curse". Odd.
So, care to answer my question... do you think the reverse is possible? Could you will yourself into being gay, as a gay person could (by your reasoning) will themselves into becoming heterosexual?