Moving On...
Homosexuality is natural in the sense that it…
[list]
[*]is present in or faithfully represents nature or life.
[*]is a phenomenon expressive of natural conditions.
[*]conforms to the usual and ordinary course of the material world and its phenomena.[/list]
Illustrating that homosexuality is natural is the fact that it extensively occurs in nature; Homosexuality has been documented in over 190 species and can be observed in nearly all sexually reproducing organisms, the exception being bacteria.
Studies of human sexuality indicate that sexual orientation is fixed and unchangeable, and current research suggests that sexual orientation is in place before birth and is caused by genetic and biological factors:
In 1991, Simon LeVey, neuroanatomist for the Salk Institute, found that the INAH3 structure of the hypothalamus in homosexual men is twice as small as those of heterosexual men, more closely resembling those of heterosexual women.
Seven years later, findings published in the March edition of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences by researchers at the University of Texas - Austin report that the cochlea structure in homosexual women more closely resembles that of heterosexual men.
In both studies, the difference in the structures of homosexuals is attributed to hormone exposure in the womb, evidence that sexual orientation has a biological substrate.
A fingerprint study by J.A.Y. Hall and D. Kumura at the University of Western Ontario at London ON Canada found that a significant percentage of homosexuals have excess ridges on their left hand digits compared to their right hand digits, a characteristic that was not shared by heterosexuals.
This study shows a genetic link to sexual orientation that is determined before birth as fingerprints are fully developed in a fetus before the 17th week and do not change thereafter.
A study by Psychologist Michael Bailey of Northwestern University and Psychiatrist Richard Pillard of Boston University found that if one sibling is homosexual the likelihood of an identical twin also being homosexual is 52%, the likelihood of a fraternal twin being homosexual is 22%, and the likelihood of a genetic or non-genetic sibling being homosexual is 10%.
They also found that in most instances in which identical twins are separated at birth and one twin is homosexual, the other twin is also homosexual.
This study shows that sexuality has a genetic component and is not determined by life experiences.
Dean Hamer at the National Cancer Institute examined the DNA of 40 homosexuals and found that ALL shared a genetic marker in the Xq28 region of the X chromosome.
More recently, Camperio-Ciani of the University of Padua - Italy found that there is no single "gay gene" but rather several genes responsible for sexual orientation. He identified that genetic components are indeed linked to the X chromosome and that there are other components likely to be on other chromosomes as well.
Furthermore, there is currently no scientific evidence that sexual orientation is learned or can be changed.
Consider for a moment that almost all gay men and lesbians have grown up in a heterosexual world, with very little exposure to homosexuality. The overwhelming majority of gay men and lesbians were raised by heterosexual parents, educated by heterosexual teachers, and socialized with heterosexual siblings and friends. They were surrounded by heterosexism in magazines, books, movies and on television, yet they grew up to be gay.
To prove that homosexuality is not natural, you must show that a.) it is not a phenomenon that occurs in the material world or b.) that it is a phenomenon that occurs in the material world but is itself artificial.
If it is your claim that homosexuality is wrong, you have the burden of proof to show that it is wrong and citing The Bible is simply not adequate proof.
Now can we move on?
Adam_Poe> As always… 👆
Arachnoidfreak> Goodness! DO keep me updated on that debate, will you.
That was He would not be God if he was held down by human law". HILARIOUS!
Ytaker> ” Rarely can a person get their mind around an infinite concept, and even then it’s only insanity filling in the gaps.”
THAT was new! No, wait…
It’s either
”God works in mysterious ways…”
”No one can comprehend the workings of God.”
Or yours…
God’s just a hypocrite. It’s as easy as that. Occam’s Razor! (slash)
” If God created us, knows how we work, and knows best how to continue the world, then he could morally kill somebody to protect society.”
Hrmrmrmrm. So – God CAN intervene!??? Why then… doesn’t he… To protect society? To protect kids who get their limbs blasted off by landmines? Hapless people who get killed in a war? Innocent humans who get run over by a car?
You’ve been dodging my miracles=God intervenes=God is evil for page upon page now.
Why not simply admit that you’re cornered? 😉
AC> ” Didn't he give Moses the 10 Commandments, one of which were thou shalt not kill?”
Yeah, and you know what Moses did when he came DOWN from the mountain?
He orders a KILLING!!! Exodus 32:25 to 32:28
And here God repents for his evil 32:14 http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/notes.html#32:14
BtW: Check injustice in Exodus http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/inj_list.html
People killed by God http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/topics/killed.html
Originally posted by The Omega
Adam_Poe> As always… 👆Ytaker> ” Rarely can a person get their mind around an infinite concept, and even then it’s only insanity filling in the gaps.”
THAT was new! No, wait…
It’s either
”God works in mysterious ways…”
”No one can comprehend the workings of God.”
Or yours…
God’s just a hypocrite. It’s as easy as that. Occam’s Razor! (slash)[/url]
Try and see my point. I'm saying that you can't wrap your mind round it, and so you must try to use logic. Not feelings, logic
Originally posted by Ytaker
Try and see my point. I'm saying that you can't wrap your mind round it, and so you must try to use logic. Not feelings, logic
I just though of an example. In mathamatics, you cannot comprehend infinity. So you use logic, and box it up in a logical concept. Nor can you comprehend pi.
Ytaker> “Try and see my point. I'm saying that you can't wrap your mind round it, and so you must try to use logic. Not feelings, logic.”
Practice what you preach.
While the mind cannot PICTURE infinity, we can indeed work with it as a, say, mathematical concept. So don’t go logic on me…
Try instead … to make a point.
Originally posted by Syren
You just said exactly the same thing two different ways 😬
No, Clovie, Syren misinterpretted you... Clovie (I think) was trying to say that
Originally posted by Clovie
i'm not saying it is a result of trauma.
i'm saying that it can (could potentially) be caused by one
whether or not you agree thats one thing, but it was not the same thing reworded.
The point you were trying to make was understandable... whether it was crap or not I dunno. A lot of people here are critical of the idea that being gay can be result of trauma. I dont know, I guess I thought that it could have a part to play when I started out in this thread. But since then I've seen some reasonable arguments against that view, and few for it. On the other hand, I dont think environmental influences should be left out of this discussion entirely. Things like rape or abuse or relationship problems with either parent can have a big effect on straight people's sexual behavior, I think that if there were someone kind of on the edge between gay and straight that something like that could "turn some one gay." It would be tough trying to prove that though. Anyway to answer your question, not total crap... it just needs some evidence to back it up.
Charlie Manson raped prison guards or something due to the abuse they dealt out on him, out of pure humiliation and degradation though. He wasn't gay because of the trauma.
I don't understand how someone could suffer trauma then be walking down the street and think "Damn I wish I could have sexual intercourse with that guy coz of what happened to me the other day."
Rather idiotic theory.
-AC
AC-
No one is saying that being raped by someone is going to make you gay.
However your environment while growing up, while you are forming you first relationships... I think could have an impact on how you relate to others. I have buddy that grew up in home where his parents hated each other... the dad fooled around and his dad and mom argued alot. they got divorced while he was young and he lived in different homes. He has told me that that is probably why he has a problem respecting women when it comes to relationships. His sexual identity has in some way been altered by the experiences hes had... instead of viewing women as equals, he tends to view them more as sex objects.
This is an example of how someone I have known for a couple years has had issues dealing with members of the opposite sex because of childhood trauma... instead of being gay though, this guy goes out and tries to score with as many good looking women as he can and doesnt care about it.
But the thing is, shit that happens to you does affect you, especially when your just a kid trying to figure things out. I know that maybe something weird happening as a kid wont make you gay necessarily, but I think that if it did I would not be suprised.