Spiderman vs. Captain America/Daredevil/Wolverine

Originally posted by Creshosk
Slothful induction and fallacy of exclusion.

Aside from using formal debate tactics you haven't done anything to back up what you've stated except post pictures. I'm supposing that you expect everyone to apply the logic that YOUR pictures present, which is undeniably "comic" logic.

"Comic" logic is very simple. The heroes beat the odds 99% of the time, for to lose is to die and the popular/moneymaking heroes never die in continuity. A comic is a DRAMATIC action fiction.

It dawned on me as I was reading a particular story in which Iceman donned the rampage armor. Angel was struck by Iceman and was knocked back towards the wall and the story EXPLAINED...that striking the wall would have meant CERTAIN death. Spider-man LUCKILY happened by and SAVED him by slowing his momentum with his webbing.

😐

If hitting the wall meant certain death, then why didn't the PUNCH kill him?! The obvious answer is that he CAN'T be KILLED by ACCIDENT!!! Comics are filled with DRAMA, and dramatically Angel was saved from the wall by Spidey, but the PUNCH TO HIS FACE that knocked his body back at LETHAL speeds didn't BRUISE HIM!

This is the type of Invincibility to DEATH is shared by too many heroes to list.

But instead of simply using what you know about the CHARACTER and using the abilities that are given and can be proven as given, you try to give your statements more credibility by using formal debate technique and terminology.

How can you get technical and PREFER the logic used to make a DRAMATIC EFFECT! 😆

Logic may come in many forms but TRUTH is what we're trying to uncover here. Truth is not like logic because it stands firm and ENDS the argument for those who aren't fanatical. You may have contributed some info to help uncover that truth, but your disrespect of those who may not have attended community college is disgraceful. Especially considering the fact that you DON'T DARE USE REAL WORLD LOGIC!!

That would make Spidey's victory definite at over 50% of the time due to the fact that he's FAR FAR FAR superior to the real world incarnations of these three, and that's obvious when you compare HIS real world incarnation to theirs. A movie descrepency doesn't discredit the ENTIRE example any more than a comic discrepency discredits the collection.

You asked me before if I honestly didn't see my bias. I'm not biased I'm just unconvinced that I'm mistaken.

Can you honestly say that you don't show bias?

..And don't worry, you won't be graded on this. 😉

😮‍💨

that is a great post, you put some thought into it.

Originally posted by The MISTER
Using terms like these don't make your arguments any more sound, and I'm pretty sure that you're aware of the fact that many people don't recognize them.

Originally posted by The MISTER
Aside from using formal debate tactics you haven't done anything to back up what you've stated except post pictures. I'm supposing that you expect everyone to apply the logic that YOUR pictures present, which is undeniably "comic" logic.

Originally posted by The MISTER
"Comic" logic is very simple. The heroes beat the odds 99% of the time, for to lose is to die and the popular/moneymaking heroes never die in continuity. A comic is a DRAMATIC action fiction.

Originally posted by The MISTER
It dawned on me as I was reading a particular story in which Iceman donned the rampage armor. Angel was struck by Iceman and was knocked back towards the wall and the story EXPLAINED...that striking the wall would have meant CERTAIN death. Spider-man LUCKILY happened by and SAVED him by slowing his momentum with his webbing.

😐

If hitting the wall meant certain death, then why didn't the PUNCH kill him?! The obvious answer is that he CAN'T be KILLED by ACCIDENT!!! Comics are filled with DRAMA, and dramatically Angel was saved from the wall by Spidey, but the PUNCH TO HIS FACE that knocked his body back at LETHAL speeds didn't BRUISE HIM!

This is the type of Invincibility to DEATH is shared by too many heroes to list.

But instead of simply using what you know about the CHARACTER and using the abilities that are given and can be proven as given, you try to give your statements more credibility by using formal debate technique and terminology.

Superman prime's stats were made when Superman prime was created by what Superman did in the comics to become superman prime. The same goes for the other characters as well. We know that Wolverine has adamantium because of what happened in the comics. The stats didn't come first and instantly state that he did or did not. It had to happen IN the comic. Like When Magneto ripped out the adamantium the stats would have to change to reflect that Wolverine didnot have the adamantium. And had to change again when the adamantium was put back IN the comics.

The stats are secondary to the comics, not the other way around.

Originally posted by The MISTER
How can you get technical and PREFER the logic used to make a DRAMATIC EFFECT! 😆

Real world physics and real world anatomy should NEVER override the comic book anatomy. Only used to fill in gaps that the comic books leave out. People want to use real world anatomy to show spiderman knocking out wolverine. But this overrides the comic book logic that has already been established. As certain characters DON'T have real world antaomy. And none of them do in entirity.

In comics, the anatomy is already different on a very, VERY basic level. The DNA. Comic DNA is different than Real world DNA. in that if it's altered through radiation in the comics, it yeilds superpowers. Real world it results in cancer and death. So how can you argue them to have something that's already been established that they DON'T have?

Originally posted by The MISTER
Logic may come in many forms but TRUTH is what we're trying to uncover here. Truth is not like logic because it stands firm and ENDS the argument for those who aren't fanatical. You may have contributed some info to help uncover that truth, but your disrespect of those who may not have attended community college is disgraceful. Especially considering the fact that you DON'T DARE USE REAL WORLD LOGIC!!

To be fair real world logic has been misused on both sides. What someone says is logic is actually another part issue.

Like the superman knocking out wolverine goes off of anatomy rather than logic. As even real world logic would say that no, spiderman cannot knock wolverine out because the evidence and proof go against it.

Originally posted by The MISTER
That would make Spidey's victory definite at over 50% of the time due to the fact that he's FAR FAR FAR superior to the real world incarnations of these three,

Originally posted by The MISTER
and that's obvious when you compare HIS real world incarnation to theirs. A movie descrepency doesn't discredit the ENTIRE example any more than a comic discrepency discredits the collection.

The Shiar technology was used to make cerebro rather than just magneto helping.

Wolverine and rouge did not first meet in a bar.

Jubillee Was not an X-man before wolverine was.

Iceman was on the same level as Cyclops when wolverine, storm and collosus (all introduced into the X-men at the same time as well) were introduced into the X-Men.

The X-Men movies are not the comic book characters. And should not be used anymore than Wolverine lord of the vampires should be used.

Originally posted by The MISTER
You asked me before if I honestly didn't see my bias. I'm not biased I'm just unconvinced that I'm mistaken.

Can you honestly say that you don't show bias?

..And don't worry, you won't be graded on this. 😉

😮‍💨

I think there are many who are unconvinced they are mistaken, or just throw a point out there, only to not get the answer that helps them see what truly is the problem with the point therefore adding no depth to a discussion, thereby unintentionally killing it.

If we apply realism to this debate.................as chreshock's already so painfully pointed out to everyone on multiple occasions...spidey simply and utterly doesn't exist, he's either a regular guy who got sick from a spiderbite or a regular guy who didn't get sick because said spider died of radiation poisioning....either way no super powers....

daredevil still exists but his abilities are no where near as impressive...
wolverine being a mutant....probably looks like the kid from deliverence and had no super powers whatsoever....
and captain america would probably just be a smart guy on steroids with standard body armor and a gun instead of a sheild....

but we all know that doesn't bode well with spiderman fans...so it was then argued that realism should only begin to apply to the characters after their origins have been established.....okay for the arguments sake lets give you that one.....

now...everybody's saying that realistically healing factor or not logan would get knocked out by spiderman punches because his healing factor can't compensate for his brain sloshin around in his skull.....(now I've already given multiple occasions where wolverine's been hit by harder faster and more powerful things, fists, etc and survived no problem....as have others, countless others...and I also gave a rather logical explination for how his healing factor probably compensated for his earlier KO's from the likes of sasquatch, eradicator, etc by giving him something reminiscent of homer simpson syndrome as it's not out of his healing factor's abilities to do so, but okay lets play the realism game).

Now this is gonna be repeditive and I apologize.....both for that and the length of this muthafuca but some of these things simply have to be said...again........and again (i guess 😕 )

the argument we the trio supporters are being presented with is that in the real world these guys would die or be seriously injured by spiderman's overall strength factor because their feats of durability mean nothing when storywriting is taken out of the equation and all that's left is the realism that's being fought so hard to be kept here....
this would imply that despite wolverine's mutant physiology he still has human aspects such as the "wolverine getting a concussion" argument would suggest. Another argument was that due to spidermans superhuman physiology and the strength factors of the trio, spiderman wouldn't even be affectef by their blows....

Now my first counter to this was from real life, it being: martial artists are fully capible of producing up to and including 2 thousand pounds of pressure per square inch in a given blow (again...more force than produced in a car wreck)....now we all know that a car wreck has enough force in it to crush a human skull....yet when a similar kick was used against a martial artists ribs in the same research...the ribs did not break. Ribs are some of the weekest bones on the human body, weaker than a human skull, even a strong cough can break a rib or two at any given time, yet this martial artist was able to whether the blow and simply stand up after it occured as if he was fine, because he was fine....But how? how in the real world would a mans ribcage whether a blow that has more exursion force than produced in a car wreck?......this lead me to my next point which was that martial artists have bones which through years of training become a "living armor" if you will.....almost fists of steel capible of sending blows through cement, a 6 foot TALL slab of ice.....punch holes through bricks with single inger strikes....and break 5 tied up baseball bats over their shins.....they are able to do this with little concentration, because over the years of training the bones themselves develop calcium deposits the bones become stronger, denser. The cartalidge that acts as a cusion for the bone's impact becomes harder as well allowing for more power with less chance of injury.....and finally the actuall muscle tissue (not scar tissue which gives the appearance of bulk but actuall mucle fibers and tendons and ligaments) become stronger and tighter allowing for a harder body to take almost as much punishment as it can dish out..... now these tests were done by men of relatively smaller builds....they were nowhere near the strength speed skill and experience of the trio....factor those four aspects into that realism and these guys are far more than your average human off the streets...for more powerful and far more durable......

so then the question is no longer will they even affect spidey with blows......it is now how well can spiderman stand up to a concentrated car wreck.

anyways.....back to the point (sorry for the hella long tangent there), we have had to try and dispute the human characteristics of out characters in a real world scenario while spiderman still retains his spiderman physiology but that's where the fallacy begins to rear it's ugly head....

you see, in spite of parkers hyped up spider physiology there are still aspects about him that are human as well.... if wolverine's getting concussions or KOed dispite his feats then spiderman has to give in to his real world human characteristics as well......In the real world....spiderman's acheles heal so to speak is his bones....even though a spider bite gave him his superpowers and changed his musclar build and reaction time etc...his bones would not be subject to change.... spiderman's done density would not be changed or hardened in anyway due to a radioactive spider bite even if everything else was.....the only thing that can change bone density in such a manner is exaclt how I just described above....through trauma basically....the meaning? spiderman can't hit logan in the head without breaking everybone in his hand, if his bones are no longer able to sustain such hard material he can't back the power of his muscles for a punch...making them pretty much useless against wolverine.....
also due to his realistic anatomy.....spiderman's semi-superior speed will fall useless to spiderman very quickly due to the same reason's that "doubled speed" had to be used so quickly for taskmaster (i.e. every bone shattering in his body due to the force used to move them)...so much for spider speed....
that said.....spiderman can only move fast for so long (which is not long at all) fatigue will make his spider sense fairly useless as well...

ain't realism a *****? 😄 [/B][/QUOTE] Good post man and I think I see what you are trying say. When you introduce 100% realism not only do some events become impossible, many characters and their powers become impossibilities as well. Creshosk also pointed out reasons why this "realistic" approach is flawed.

I think that's a very good argument against using the "real world" logic, but if NONE is used, then the only thing left to go on is another flawed form of logic that is just as packed with inconsistencies.

For example the "realistic" Spidey who somehow didn't die from his DNA mutation would break his own bones( which would have no powers ) by making a fist, or punching steel. The "comic" Spidey can punch through steel and his bones have been unrealistically enhanced.

Please let me clarify. I am basing all of my arguments on GIVENS. In order for something to be considered a given there really shouldn't be any reasonable doubt surrounding the GIVEN answer to whatever question has been asked.

How strong is Spider-man? he can bench 10 tons. This is a given fact.
Is Spidey bulletproof? No. another given.
How durable are Spider-mans muscles and bones? In order to support ten tons they would have to be at least as dense as a metal that would buckle at ten tons and 1 lb. This should be a given as well but this is where problems arise. If Spider-man's body is as dense as metal, then how come he ISN'T bulletproof? An acceptable given would be that despite having muscles and bones that are as dense as metal, Spidey can be peirced by bullets just like dense metal can.

There are some obvious givens for Cap and DD due to the fact that they are human level even by comic book definition.

Cap and DD are not capable of hitting Spider-man as hard as Doc ock, Sandman, Lizard, Carnage, Venom, Rhino, Hulk, Sub-mariner, Absorbing man, or even the Scorpion. Spider-man has been hit by all of these powerhouses and retained consciousness and effectiveness. Where Cap and DDs' most powerful blows wouldn't penetrate a barrier that is made to stop ALL humans, all of the characters reffered to above are capable of penatrating a barrier that the most powerful human couldn't. So how would Cap or DD injure Spidey when their most powerful blows are weak compared to a characters' like the Lizard's.

Wolverine is the hardest character of the trio to determine what is or isn't given.

Does he have superhuman strength? undetermined
Is he bulletproof? No. His bones are unbreakable though.
Can he render the webbing useless in every way. NO! escaping one webbing assault doesn't mean that the webbing can't work. It's held stronger enemies than Wolvie down.

I'll have to continue tomorrow cause I'm getting sleepy.
Peace.

😮‍💨

Amen to that, I got a court date tomorrow,MAGNIFICENT POST.

This is the problem

logic vs. occurence

Ribs cover a larger area in the body,but are not a solid flat surfae, while the skull has hard and inconsistent ends all around it.
Ribs are very weak, especially the hanging ribs, a decent "i'm serious punch" would break these and puncture a lung,easily.

A foot though more powerful though less applicable than a hand is simply blunted, because pressure=forcex area, and the area of the shoe is so great, and so is the area of the ribs, that pressure is evenly dispersed around the area, and therefore, not sufficient for rib breaking, because ribs are much flatter than a skull, and because an action gets an equal and opposite reaction, than a flat foot on a flat rib cage, is obsolete, to a degree.

A skull is like an egg,or a rubber ball, tough, thoughits body gives enough resistance so it will, pierce break or crack.

Paper though less resilient, does not resist as much, making it near impossible to rip by simple stomps and the like though, can be penetrated by the superior application of the hand.

Just clearing that up.

Occurence,just because its written , doesn't mean it cannot be questioned though it can not be taken back. If you read a Black and White magazine, ( you know the one), and has an article on talking bears, would you not question it. therefore, even if this source says it then it is not always right,

Since all concepts have been conjured by man period, the comics are more or less a dictionary. If we know that a cat is shown as a member of feline for our lives, then it is shown as a member of hermine, then we would question it due to our better instincts, even though it is written by the dictionary, it is not consistant.

Just doing a follow through on what you did, and putting some extra pieces here and there.

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
Amen to that, I got a court date tomorrow,MAGNIFICENT POST.

This is the problem

logic vs. occurence

Gee, I wonder which would be written in a comic book.

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
Ribs cover a larger area in the body,but are not a solid flat surfae, while the skull has hard and inconsistent ends all around it.
Ribs are very weak, especially the hanging ribs, a decent "i'm serious punch" would break these and puncture a lung,easily.

Threw training ribs can becomes several times harder than found in an average human.

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
A foot though more powerful though less applicable than a hand is simply blunted, because pressure=forcex area, and the area of the shoe is so great, and so is the area of the ribs, that pressure is evenly dispersed around the area, and therefore, not sufficient for rib breaking, because ribs are much flatter than a skull, and because an action gets an equal and opposite reaction, than a flat foot on a flat rib cage, is obsolete, to a degree.

News flash, modern applicable martial arts teach the use of the shin far more often than the foot. The foot taking secondary use in specialized attacks.

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
A skull is like an egg,or a rubber ball, tough, thoughits body gives enough resistance so it will, pierce break or crack.

It's more like an egg, in that if pressure is applied in a certain manner, It's structural integrety is far greater than would seem reasonable.

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
Paper though less resilient, does not resist as much, making it near impossible to rip by simple stomps and the like though, can be penetrated by the superior application of the hand.

Just clearing that up.

Occurence,just because its written , doesn't mean it cannot be questioned though it can not be taken back. If you read a Black and White magazine, ( you know the one), and has an article on talking bears, would you not question it. therefore, even if this source says it then it is not always right,

That is a completely unfair comparison. I'll ask Creshok now to break it down, because your logic is so flawed I have no words for it.

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
Since all concepts have been conjured by man period, the comics are more or less a dictionary. If we know that a cat is shown as a member of feline for our lives, then it is shown as a member of hermine, then we would question it due to our better instincts, even though it is written by the dictionary, it is not consistant.

Just doing a follow through on what you did, and putting some extra pieces here and there.

Calling things a different name doesn't change what they are, just what we call them. Wether Wolverine walloped, beat, or humiliated Spidey doesn't change what happened, just what you're calling it. I can't beleive how flawed your so called logic is.

than a flat foot on a flat rib cage, is obsolete, to a degree

News flash, modern applicable martial arts teach the use of the shin far more often than the foot. The foot taking secondary use in specialized attacks.

This is why you do not kick with the flat of the foot, but with the ball of the foot or the heel. Then the shin will not be necessary (though it's still nice for up-close), especially when the heel is the hardest point on the human body.

Originally posted by Wanderer259
This is why you do not kick with the flat of the foot, but with the ball of the foot or the heel. Then the shin will not be necessary (though it's still nice for up-close), especially when the heel is the hardest point on the human body.

Agreed, but usually landing a front kick or a stomp kick is much harder than landing a kick with the shin. Most MMA type schools I have seen advocate the shin far more than the foot, as it is far more likley to land.

Agreed, but usually landing a front kick or a stomp kick is much harder than landing a kick with the shin. Most MMA type schools I have seen advocate the shin far more than the foot, as it is far more likley to land.

More likely to land only in the fact that it's a longer part of the body, but mostly because the shin isn't viable for a distanced attack and is done up close, where you'd be hard pressed to miss in the first place. Of course, the foot isn't as viable up close, either. The foot, however, allows you to attack from a longer distance and if you're particularly adept at kicking and possessed of long legs, you'll be hard to get to.

Originally posted by Wanderer259
More likely to land only in the fact that it's a longer part of the body, but mostly because the shin isn't viable for a distanced attack and is done up close, where you'd be hard pressed to miss in the first place. Of course, the foot isn't as viable up close, either. The foot, however, allows you to attack from a longer distance and if you're particularly adept at kicking and possessed of long legs, you'll be hard to get to.

Sure like Semmy Schilt, but not everyone's as long as him. Even Mirko Crocop uses his shin in his high kicks to the head as opposed to his foot. Either way I'm talking out of personal experience, so I see why we might have a slightly differing opinion on the value of the foot, even though we're actually agreeing to just about everything we say.

Isn't discussion funny like that?

Definitley. Good argueing with you.

Just had a thought...

I believe Creshrock is Capt JK...

You ever compare the way they debate...very similar debate styles...

Examples:

Excessive angst against Spidey supporters(Straw, Who_kid, etc)

Excessive adoration for those who support his arguments.(Jinzin..etc...etc)

Never directly responds to arguments...

I'm thoroughly convinced that Creshrock and Capt Jk are one in the same..I believe he had to change his screen name..because we made him look soo bad the first 100 pg's of this thread..😆😆😆

Seriously though...What do you all think?

To Jk: So how's your editor doing..is he still reading the posts?

lol.....that was a hell of a lot of reading just to get the jist of these guys saying "I don't like it, it didn't happen"

what a load of crap....i've already given a perfectly logical explaination how using real world logic actually works against spiderman....if you guys want him to break everybone in his body trying to hurt wolverine...then by all mean use real world logic....lol

anyways....I like how when I post entire fights from begninning to end to allow people to see and understand what's happened during the direct confrontations of the characters in question...."those pics a biased" but when somebody posted the pic of wolvie webbed up with his claws to his head...with no explaination of how he got there...it was perfectly okay....😕

Now, we have to hear about how spiderman's 40x faster than a person...when no such fact nor stat has ever been provided to support the claim, we have to hear about how those pics showing wolverine's jumping ability were during colossus speedball specials....despite the fact that wolverine's shown from his takeoff position in one of the pics.... you're ignoring every fact that shows spiderman's in over his head here....but now we have to hear about how we're the fanboys? 😂 please....🙄

Okay....anyway.....yes during wolvies first appearance he was KOed by a glancing blow....BUT...hulk smashed him into the ground with a cheapshot before that...it had enough force to weaken the numerous chains that held wolverine captive, so much so, that he was able tobreak free after tha with his own strength....wolverine doesn't get phased by bullets consistently if ever.....punisher shot his face off literally and wolverine commenced to beat the guy up.....if you can try and pick up some of the early comics wolverine 1-25 or so many examples are there where wolverine's taking gun fire from multiple people and the guys just fine.....tazors work? when did this happen?
bad tea? you mean poisioned tea....the likes of which he has an immunity to now...(wolverine 108). besides spiderman doesn't carry "bad tea" in his arsenal what's the point? Wolverine used to get KOed by people quite a bit in the first decade or so of his existence....now he doesn't. My theory:Wolverine's healing factor has developed homer simpson syndrome that allows him to not get KOed he's become immune to that as well....think about it....we saw him get KOed back when he was just starting his career in fighting against super empowered opponents...now he's been doing it a while....his body has probably appropriately adapted itself to take that kind of punishment...

Hulk hits wolverine and turns his insides to jelly....they reform before hulk lands the next hit....

he gets floored by cyc...who cares...he wasn't koed was he? he wasn't hurt was he? it wasn't anything that wolverine couldn't just brush off was it?

and what instance might you be referring to by the way? give references instead of just claiming what happened...

you say we're trying to make spiderman look like a scrub...we're not, we showed all the direct comparisons there are to show of these characters, the majority of them are not in spiderman's favor, it's that simple.....that doesn't mean that WE are the ones who are biased here...yet in turn you bring up some of wolverine's less than great moments and it's okay? despite the fact that wolverine's healing factor has consitantly helped him through much worse than that....loss of blood may kill him....but it would take a lot of it pure and simple....until he does die from anything other than being totally vaporized or having his heart pulled out.....then stop acting like wolverine is such easy prey here...that just don't fly.....besides...spidey's got two other heroes to worry about here...he's so boned...

You can check on his profil to see if he's had any previous user names.

you made capjk look bad? I think not...he kicked your ass in debating skills just like cresh is doing now...

they don't debate the same.....capjk made more arguments for captain america, cresh hasn't said much of anything about the guy.....cresh is more devoted to shooting the shit out of all your claims not just the ones that revolver around cap....but sweet whob.....don't make an actual argument or anything.....🙄

Yes..yes..you all have really kicked our asses..🙄

Anywhoo..I still believe they are one in the same..it's fairly obvious from the way in which he posts....

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Yes..yes..you all have really kicked our asses..🙄

Anywhoo..I still believe they are one in the same..it's fairly obvious from the way in which he posts....

That little smiley doesn't make it any less true.

well......in his mind?...it helps I guess....