Spiderman vs. Captain America/Daredevil/Wolverine

Originally posted by Creshosk
If you had a better grasp of what logic actually was it might not seem as strange to you.

Hehehe, I find that funny considering the blatant holes in your logic. Firstly:

Originally posted by Creshosk
The same stats that have Spiderman's webbing being weaker than High grade steel, or Doc Ock's tentacles moving slower than baseball pitches?

Baseball pitches can reach around 110mph or more, and personally I think doc's tentacles moving around 90-100mph is fairly reasonable, that's not exactly slow, you make it sound like he's moving in slow mo, which isn't the case.
Secondly:

Originally posted by Creshosk
120 pounds per square millimeter

120 (pounds / (millimeters squared)) = 38.7096 short tons per (square inch)

64.4693 tonf/in2 (US) ton force (short) per square inch is the tensile strength of high grade steel.

High grade steel is 64, Spiderman's webbing stat is 39.

64>39

The tensile strength would be measured in pounds per cubic millimeter not sqaured, so your mathematical working out is null and void. Using your own figures (which after calcualtion appear that they are likely wrong) it works out as follows:

120lb (using 1 ton being 2000lb) means that it's 0.06 tons per cubic millimeter (120/2000)

now there's approximately 27mm per inch which when you cube it (27*27*27) gives you 19683 cubic millimeters per cubic inch.

now you multiply the tons/mm by the number of mm in a cubic inch and you get the following: 0.06*19638=1180.98 tons/cubic inch.

This seems excessive even for a superhero so I can't help but wonder where you got your data from.

Originally posted by Creshosk
So in this case we discard what they do beyond what is in their described abilities, despite the complete glaring flaws within the described abilities such as what I described above?

You can forget this line entirely considering I just pointed out to you the flaws in the flaws you found 🙂

If you're going to try to put someones point down I would suggest actually aquiring proper data rather than simple opinion, it would make your debates stand up much better to scrutiny.

Originally posted by Farseer
Hehehe, I find that funny considering the blatant holes in your logic. Firstly:

Baseball pitches can reach around 110mph or more, and personally I think doc's tentacles moving around 90-100mph is fairly reasonable, that's not exactly slow, you make it sound like he's moving in slow mo, which isn't the case.
Secondly:

The tensile strength would be measured in pounds per cubic millimeter not sqaured, so your mathematical working out is null and void. Using your own figures (which after calcualtion appear that they are likely wrong) it works out as follows:

120lb (using 1 ton being 2000lb) means that it's 0.06 tons per cubic millimeter (120/2000)

now there's approximately 27mm per inch which when you cube it (27*27*27) gives you 19683 cubic millimeters per cubic inch.

now you multiply the tons/mm by the number of mm in a cubic inch and you get the following: 0.06*19638=1180.98 tons/cubic inch.

This seems excessive even for a superhero so I can't help but wonder where you got your data from.

You can forget this line entirely considering I just pointed out to you the flaws in the flaws you found 🙂

If you're going to try to put someones point down I would suggest actually aquiring proper data rather than simple opinion, it would make your debates stand up much better to scrutiny.

OWNED!!!

Catch the flaws in his thinking,lol, cresh is perfect

Originally posted by Farseer
Hehehe, I find that funny considering the blatant holes in your logic. Firstly:

Baseball pitches can reach around 110mph or more, and personally I think doc's tentacles moving around 90-100mph is fairly reasonable, that's not exactly slow, you make it sound like he's moving in slow mo, which isn't the case.

Originally posted by Farseer
Secondly:

The tensile strength would be measured in pounds per cubic millimeter not sqaured, so your mathematical working out is null and void. Using your own figures (which after calcualtion appear that they are likely wrong) it works out as follows:

120lb (using 1 ton being 2000lb) means that it's 0.06 tons per cubic millimeter (120/2000)

now there's approximately 27mm per inch which when you cube it (27*27*27) gives you 19683 cubic millimeters per cubic inch.

now you multiply the tons/mm by the number of mm in a cubic inch and you get the following: 0.06*19638=1180.98 tons/cubic inch.

This seems excessive even for a superhero so I can't help but wonder where you got your data from.

And they list it as 120 pounds per square millimeter. . . which is less than the tensile strngth of steel calculated into the same units. . .

Originally posted by Farseer
You can forget this line entirely considering I just pointed out to you the flaws in the flaws you found 🙂

Originally posted by Farseer
If you're going to try to put someones point down I would suggest actually aquiring proper data rather than simple opinion, it would make your debates stand up much better to scrutiny.

you're supposed to discuss about this, not fight

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
I see you didn't bother reading the last few pages of this thread since you've posted, I suggest you do, there are some enlightening arguements on them.

Actually I did, however, most of what I posted in my response to you rebutted what they posted. It isn't necessary for me to respond to every post, and I don't like flooding the chatboard.

Secret Wars! HAHAHAHHAHAHA! You mean where his powers where augmented while being on battle world?

I'll admit that particular issue did seem to be a bit biased towards the X-men, however, it didn't stray away from SM's known abilities. Webbing people, jumping around like a speed ball, and using his spider sense to avoid opponents are all abilities which are consistant with his character.

And Thor had peek human speed at the time at best.

Do you realize what you've just shot down your entire argument of "peek human speed" being comparable to Spiderman's speed with this statement? If Thor couldn't keep up with him moving at a "peek human speed", it would be illogical to assume that Wolvie/Captain/DD would fair any better. I doubt any of them are faster than Thor.

Wanderer and Marvel don't seem to agree

Spiderman's powers as listed by Marvel

Spider-Man possesses superhuman strength, reflexes and equilibrium; the ability to cling to most surfaces; and a sixth sense that warns him of impending danger

Another gross misunderstanding on your part. He originally planned to stay until the webbing dissolved so as to save himself some displeasure but found that he had to break free and did so immediatley.

No misunderstanding, its just that you and others make gross assumptions that don't fit within logical boundaries. It was never mentioned how long Wolverine was webbed up, but I'll take a stab at saying it was quite some time. With that being stated, it's a well known fact that the webbing tends to get brittle after being exposed to the air for extended periods of time. Wolverine took advantage of this, and after time had elapsed, he was able to break the webbing. Think about it, if it had been that easy for him to free himself, he would have done it rather quickly.

Sorry bub, (hehe i said bub) you either stick to marvel stats or you don't at all. Your double standard here just isn't helping you.

There's no double standard. I have never stated that one should "exclusively" use stats to determine the outcomes of these battles. Instead I've stated that stats should be used with "historical examples" that fall within reason, meaning within the "boundaries" of a characters known abilities. It is reasonable to assume that an individual can perform beyond their limitations when put in stressful situations due to a human body's ability to produce adrenaline. SM has consistently demonstrated the ability to lift more than 10 tons while battling under extenuating circumstances.

50 tons is not an unreasonable amount. After all, he is a Superhuman..and his body probably possesses the ability to produce much more adrenaline than the average individual.

And yet that's the way they're portrayed in all of Spidey's books? So which are correct, the books, or the stats which you say we should use but then only selectively when it benifits you? And Wolvie has been described to move faster than the eye can see. Several Notches? Now that's just a blatant lie.

Your argument is weak and your assumption is illogical. As I've stated multiple times, it's okay to use examples taken from comics, as long as they fall within the limits of what a characters known abilities.

Wolverine moving faster than the eye can see is not consistant with how the character is portrayed in his comics. Nor is it consistent with what we know of his abilities. And before you mention it..it would still be grossly unreasonable to assume that he could move at "Flash like" speeds during stressful situations.

Out of character? Well that's not the forum rules, but if you insist, Wolvie kills in one hit, Cap uses his shield to decapitate Spidey, and DD times a punch to Spidey's heart so as to kill in one hit.

"Any means Necessary" was the original stipulation thrown into the battle. That's why they would be fighting out of character. With the exception of Wolvie, none of the combatants ever fight this way in their respective comics. It's quite possible that the scenarios you listed above could happen, if any of the Trio possessed the speed to hit the wallcrawler. Unfortunately they do not, and you/others have done little to prove that they do, other than give random "plot device" examples, that have no statistical/valid/ or logical evidence supporting them.

So you mention Secret Wars but fail to realize that indeed they have? Are you sure you read it?

I read it quite some time ago, so you'll have to excuse me if my memory fails me. Still...I do not recall Cap ever leading DD/Wolvie/others in a random battle against Spiderman "using any means necessary" to subdue him.

You seem to enjoy doing this so "refer to the above"

Not really, I just hate repeating myself. However I've learned in life that sometimes its necessary to repeat to get points across, particularly when trying to explain simple concepts to those who have impaired reasoning abilities.

again, refer to the above.

Refer to the above.

Even though I just owned you with your own arguements.

The only thing you own mercilous, is the inability to apply common sense and logic to your arguments. However if I must concede to something, I'll concede to the fact that you have continuously proved yourself to be the poor debator, who possesses childlike reasoning skills. How old are you by the way?

Even though there's an instance where (3 in Wolvie's case) where each of these heros has owned Spidey and your best arguement is stats which you don't even beleive. And I'm the fanboy, sure buddy. [/B]

Yes you are a fanboy. And if you still having trouble understand the reasoning behind why, refer to the arguments above my slow minded friend.

I'll leave you with one more inquiry to ponder in that "childlike" brain of yours. I'm curious..if you/others believe that every plot device used in a comic should determine how these "hypothetical battles" should play out, why even come to these forumns and debate?

Originally posted by Creshosk
He's pinned him to a wall and is spraying him with more webbing and he's not trying to incapacitate him?

Incapacitate means "to disable." If you read the post once again, I believe you will see the word "completely" in front of "incapacitate" which would then give the phrase the meaning "completely disable." Was spider man attempting to "completely disable" Wolverine with the webbing in this TRAINING SESSION? Of course not.

Does one make comments like "Now that's funny" when attempting to "completely disable" an opponent? I don't think so.

Unlike Mercilous and Jinzin, you are a good debator Creshosk, however, unfortunately like your two cohorts, you need to work on your basic reasoning skills to bring your arguments up a notch.

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
If these three guys were all no names, and it was just a list of what one can do versus the other, spiderman wins this fight, right here on paper.

Going by intangibles and plot devices in a comic, the trio win.

These are pure and simple truths. Unfortunately truth generally doesn't exist in the realm of the fanboy.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Incapacitate means "to disable." If you read the post once again, I believe you will see the word "completely" in front of "incapacitate" which would then give the phrase the meaning "completely disable." Was spider man attempting to "completely disable" Wolverine with the webbing in this TRAINING SESSION? Of course not.

I mean if a certain amount of the spider webbing could hold guys much stronger, then would you use as much to hold someone who is weaker?

He underestimated Wolverine . . .

Then when Wolverine attacked he thought Spiderman could dodge better seeing as how hard it was to hit him in the past, and went in a little further. . . Spiderman assuming wolverine wouldn't use his claws since it was a training session underestimated Wolverine's attack and both wound up in a situation I think they both regret. . .

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Does one make comments like "Now that's funny" when attempting to "completely disable" an opponent? I don't think so.

That's inaccurate. The Spider sense doesn't pick up everything..only things that pose the wall crawler some type of "danger." I'm not sure if snowballs would qualify as such.

And before someone reposts the next page, I will go ahead and do it for you. Wolverine manages to "cut" his way out of the webbing. A cocky wide open SM lunges at Wolverine. Seeing as how this was a TRAINING SESSION, SM probably carelessly ignores his Spider sense as he has done countless times, which allows Wolverine to get a stab in...

There's an inconsistency with your argument here. According to you, something as mundane as a snowball, for instance, cannot be picked up by Spider-Man's Spider-Sense - therefore, only something of true danger sets it off.

So, Spidey is dodging by Logan (he isn't lunging offensively) thinking, according to you, he won't get stabbed. If he were right, his Spider-Sense would not have gone off. However, Wolverine did mean to stab Spidey and thus his Spider-Sense did go off. According to your vision of how his Spider-Sense works, he wouldn't have ignored it, because it only reacts to actual danger. Surely no one ignores true danger?

The fact that he's fast is not being debated, but perhaps he's not quite as fast as many think.

It is reasonable to assume that an individual can perform beyond their limitations when put in stressful situations due to a human body's ability to produce adrenaline. SM has consistently demonstrated the ability to lift more than 10 tons while battling under extenuating circumstances.

50 tons is not an unreasonable amount. After all, he is a Superhuman..and his body probably possesses the ability to produce much more adrenaline than the average individual.

Why is it then not unreasonable for the trio to go beyond their limits and strike Spidey? It wouldn't be too far-fetched, considering Spider-Man is more than capable of multiplying his physical lifting strength by five.

No it wouldn't Cap/Wolvie/DD weigh a bit over 200 lbs, that's like tugging a kite up in the air to SM.

Walk outside, tie a 60 foot-long piece of rope or string to a kite, stand at its fullest length, and then see if you can fling it straight into the air.

No misunderstanding, its just that you and others make gross assumptions that don't fit within logical boundaries. It was never mentioned how long Wolverine was webbed up, but I'll take a stab at saying it was quite some time. With that being stated, it's a well known fact that the webbing tends to get brittle after being exposed to the air for extended periods of time. Wolverine took advantage of this, and after time had elapsed, he was able to break the webbing. Think about it, if it had been that easy for him to free himself, he would have done it rather quickly.

Just as an FYI for everyone, as I recall, Spidey's webbing dissolves within an hour's time. I'd say it's a sure bet that it's a gradual process.

"Any means Necessary" was the original stipulation thrown into the battle.

What if 'any means necessary' involves teaming up and working as a cohesive unit?

I thought that was one of spiderman's charms. . making witty comments while fighting for his life.

It is.

Originally posted by Creshosk
The stat is 91 feet per second. . .that's 61 mph. and as you've just proven is slower than a baseball pitch.

I never disputed that it was slower than a baseball pitch, but even 61mph isn't slow. if they can move that fast they can carry him that fast, and a person moving at 61mph is a damn fast person, even Olympic sprinters run (I believe) around 30mph and they ain't slow by any means. As for the hitting power of his "tentacles" moving at 61mph, that's a solid block of metal, and most people that get hit by cars moving at 61mph die from it, so I really don't think that saying Doc's 61mph is exactly a drawback.

Originally posted by Creshosk
The Marvel Handbooks. Same place that has Spiderman's speed, strength abnd spidersense speed. As well as those of his opponents in this fight.

And they list it as 120 pounds per square millimeter. . . which is less than the tensile strngth of steel calculated into the same units. . .

Ok well if those are the correct stats for him then my relatively simple math stands and therefore you will clearly be able to see that it is much higher than the number you put for the tensile strength of steel. The only reason I can see that you would still think that steel is stronger is because you used the numbers you came up with, which were flawed, any measurement in units squared if for a 2 dimensional object, like a square drawn on a piece of paper. I calculated into a 3 diensional object. In a way you were right though, as the webbing only exists as a drawing on a page and therefore never exists in 3 dimensions, but this is meant to be a hypothetical fight as if they were real, 3-D beings.

Originally posted by Creshosk
And thus proved my point about how the stats suck. But hey. .

I don't know about proving they suck, certainly proved that it's a world based on fantasy, and not true physics, but then we all knew that (well I hope we all did, I'd be a bit worried about the people who didn't)

Originally posted by Creshosk
Ironic considering I'm using the given stats of the characters, isn't it?

Well not really, it's more ironic that you are proving my point instead of yours.

Originally posted by Wanderer259
There's an inconsistency with your argument here. According to you, something as mundane as a snowball, for instance, cannot be picked up by Spider-Man's Spider-Sense - therefore, only something of true danger sets it off.

So, Spidey is dodging by Logan (he isn't lunging offensively) thinking, according to you, he won't get stabbed. If he were right, his Spider-Sense would not have gone off. However, Wolverine did mean to stab Spidey and thus his Spider-Sense did go off. According to your vision of how his Spider-Sense works, he wouldn't have ignored it, because it only reacts to actual danger. Surely no one ignores true danger?

There's no inconsistency, just common sense, based on statistical data. A snowball being thrown would not set the sense off, at least according to the way in which Marvel describes it working. I don't know when the incident involving Mary Jane trying to surprise him occured, however, based on what Marvel explains the sixth sense to be, It was obviously a plot device. Those are common in the world of fiction. Which brings us to your next argument..

Wolverine being able to stab Spidey. Here is my interpretation as to how this was possible. Peter was a bit ticked over Wolvie hitting on MJ. A combination of cockiness and anger causes him to ignore the Spider sense and he lunges at Wolverine, which allows Wolvie to get a stab in.

Or how about a simpler explanation. It was a plot device.

The whole scenario happened at the end of the comic, and definately kept me in suspense and wanting to get the next issue after I read it. I believe you and many others are neglecting to recognize that comic books are companies, and being as such are subjected to making profits. No one wants to see a story where Spiderman always dodges every opponent that swings at him. I know I certainly wouldn't.
In order to entertain, keep the customer coming back its necessary to go against what we know and accept. After all these are only comic books.

The fact that he's fast is not being debated, but perhaps he's not quite as fast as many think.

No what's really being debated is that his speed is comparable to that of a peek human. This assumption is not supported by statistical information, and rely's soley on scenarios that are cleary plot devices, and poor ones at that.

Why is it then not unreasonable for the trio to go beyond their limits and strike Spidey? It wouldn't be too far-fetched, considering Spider-Man is more than capable of multiplying his physical lifting strength by five.

Never said it was unreasonable just stated that is was highly improbable based on their abilities and known fighting styles. In order to connect they would have to be up close. SM rarely fights up close. It is illogical to assume that he will use an up close fighting style, seeing as how that is not his typical style of attack. It is logical that he will use a ranged fighting style, seeing as how it is his typical style of attack.

Walk outside, tie a 60 foot-long piece of rope or string to a kite, stand at its fullest length, and then see if you can fling it straight into the air.

Your assuming I'm standing on a flat level surface, and that the rope is on the ground positioned in straight line. What if I'm standing at the bottom of a steep hill at an angle. Or on top of a house. Would either of these positions give me enough leverage to lift the kite up several feet in the air at a distance of 60 ft. Yes but I doubt I could tug it with enough force to get it more than a couple of inches off the ground. How high do you believe someone who is strong enough to lift a building structure could get it off the ground?

Or couldn't I just easily lob it in a horizantal direction as opposed to a verticle one?

Just as an FYI for everyone, as I recall, Spidey's webbing dissolves within an hour's time. I'd say it's a sure bet that it's a gradual process.

And I'm sure Wolverine was up there for quite some time, because he was extremely ticked upon freeing himself from the webbing.

What if 'any means necessary' involves teaming up and working as a cohesive unit?

Not the case unfortunately..What is meant is that the characters would not have to adhere to the usual morals codes/values that they are accustomed to in their respective comics. I believe "bloodlusted" was the term used at one point to describe this state.

Which begs the anwer to the questions?

Will the three work well together in a non preped battle with this type of stipulation?

My thoughts..no probably not. I doubt Captain A would be able to control Wolverine. And Daredevil has shown the personality trait of being a loner, even when working with others. Case in point..I doubt the Trio would work as effectively as a cohesive unit as many have implied. And their is nothing "historical" that would suggest that they would work well together in a situation similar to this one.

Originally posted by Farseer
I never disputed that it was slower than a baseball pitch, but even 61mph isn't slow. if they can move that fast they can carry him that fast, and a person moving at 61mph is a damn fast person, even Olympic sprinters run (I believe) around 30mph and they ain't slow by any means. As for the hitting power of his "tentacles" moving at 61mph, that's a solid block of metal, and most people that get hit by cars moving at 61mph die from it, so I really don't think that saying Doc's 61mph is exactly a drawback.

Because supposedly that's what the new Doc Ock does.

Spiderman who can dodge machine gun fire has troubles dodging Doc Ock on a consistant basis. . .

Originally posted by Farseer
Ok well if those are the correct stats for him then my relatively simple math stands and therefore you will clearly be able to see that it is much higher than the number you put for the tensile strength of steel. The only reason I can see that you would still think that steel is stronger is because you used the numbers you came up with, which were flawed, any measurement in units squared if for a 2 dimensional object, like a square drawn on a piece of paper. I calculated into a 3 diensional object. In a way you were right though, as the webbing only exists as a drawing on a page and therefore never exists in 3 dimensions, but this is meant to be a hypothetical fight as if they were real, 3-D beings.

They still gave the stat as 120 pounds per square millimeter.

which is less than the tensile strength of the highest grade of steel:
http://www.efunda.com/materials/alloys/carbon_steels/show_carbon.cfm?ID=AISI_1040&prop=uts&Page_Title=Carbon%20Steel%20AISI%2010xx

Which you'll notice is 896 Megapascals, which is 201.428793 pounds per square millimeter

201 pounds per square millimeter is larger than 120 pounds per square millimeter.

So if you convert one to tons/cubic inch you have to convert the other.

896 Megapascals is alot more than 533 Megapascals

533 megapascals being what 120 pounds/millimeter squared converts to.

So the webbing's strength is less than high grade steel.

So each and any hero that can break through high grade steel should be able to rip the webbing apart with relative ease, if you go by the stats.

Originally posted by Farseer
I don't know about proving they suck, certainly proved that it's a world based on fantasy, and not true physics, but then we all knew that (well I hope we all did, I'd be a bit worried about the people who didn't)

Useing real world physics in comics is illogical, as the conclusions reached won't match the premise.

Originally posted by Farseer
Well not really, it's more ironic that you are proving my point instead of yours.

There's no inconsistency, just common sense, based on statistical data. A snowball being thrown would not set the sense off, at least according to the way in which Marvel describes it working. I don't know when the incident involving Mary Jane trying to surprise him occured, however, based on what Marvel explains the sixth sense to be, It was obviously a plot device. Those are common in the world of fiction. Which brings us to your next argument..

See the link in Brainchild81's sig, right here: http://www.geocities.com/spydr7/index.html

I don't necessarily agree with all of it myself, but there's a picture right there of Aunt May with a broom, which is about as dangerous, if not less so, than being hit by a thrown snowball. Apparently, Marvel has explained the Spider-Sense several different ways.

Wolverine being able to stab Spidey. Here is my interpretation as to how this was possible. Peter was a bit ticked over Wolvie hitting on MJ. A combination of cockiness and anger causes him to ignore the Spider sense and he lunges at Wolverine, which allows Wolvie to get a stab in.

Or how about a simpler explanation. It was a plot device.

First of all, looking at the position of each combatant in that picture, Spidey has no forward momentum - it's sideways. He's obviously dodged, not lunged at Wolverine. It's Logan that's doing the lunging. Even in this position, Logan was able to reach out and stick him in the chest, despite Peter's attempt to dodge and his Spider-Sense.

No what's really being debated is that his speed is comparable to that of a peek human. This assumption is not supported by statistical information, and rely's soley on scenarios that are cleary plot devices, and poor ones at that.

And Spider-Man suddenly being able to lift 50 tons of weight, which is roughly 5 times his supposed maximum, isn't a plot device? Yet you've argued that this has logic and what's more, that it's completely reasonable.

Your assuming I'm standing on a flat level surface, and that the rope is on the ground positioned in straight line. What if I'm standing at the bottom of a steep hill at an angle. Or on top of a house. Would either of these positions give me enough leverage to lift the kite up several feet in the air at a distance of 60 ft. Yes but I doubt I could tug it with enough force to get it more than a couple of inches off the ground. How high do you believe someone who is strong enough to lift a building structure could get it off the ground?

Or couldn't I just easily lob it in a horizantal direction as opposed to a verticle one?

The situation was a stretch of 60 feet. Can you toss it horizontally? No, not with a 60 foot long piece of string/rope, not without running sideways along with it. This is a 60 foot long piece of rope here. All you'll succeed in doing is moving about a certain length of it. The rope is simply too long.

Otherwise, yes, it's entirely possible, but that's not what I was arguing.

Not the case unfortunately..What is meant is that the characters would not have to adhere to the usual morals codes/values that they are accustomed to in their respective comics. I believe "bloodlusted" was the term used at one point to describe this state.

All characters are under the stipulation of 'bloodlusted' now. Well then, seeing as how Spider-Man, according to you, was stabbed because his temper led him into an attack that wound up against him, why won't this simply happen again? 'Bloodlusted' Spidey has shown, in history, no example of using any clear or rational thought, much less coming up with a tactically sound battleplan. 'Bloodlusted' Spidey likes to get in there, good and close, where he can pound on and rip his enemies apart with his bare hands. Logan's already shown he can stab Spidey when he gets mad and stupid. I'd say Cap and Daredevil can do the same.

Unless I misunderstood your inclusion of the 'bloodlust' state of mind.

it was a bloodlust spidey that got his ass knocked out by daredevil in a fist fight AFTER he hit daredevil out of a skyscraper.....it's like I said 100 some pages ago....the trio wins for the very simple fact that spidey is not accustomed to fighting in bloodlust mode...he's a much more battlefield effective fighter when he's being weary....wolverine's stats...all of them except for intelligence actually go UP in bloodlust... he's far more accustomed to fighting as such and thus more comfortable with it, thus much more battlefield effective than spiderman when in such a state....as are any of the tio members...

Originally posted by Wanderer259
See the link in Brainchild81's sig, right here: http://www.geocities.com/spydr7/index.html

I don't necessarily agree with all of it myself, but there's a picture right there of Aunt May with a broom, which is about as dangerous, if not less so, than being hit by a thrown snowball. Apparently, Marvel has explained the Spider-Sense several different ways.

Interesting. Anyway you define it, the sense is a form of "pre-cognition." Seeing as how it is not reliant on any of the 5 basic senses.
Regardless, It would be very difficult for someone slower than himself to hit him, particularly if he would be fighting them from a distance.

First of all, looking at the position of each combatant in that picture, Spidey has no forward momentum - it's sideways. He's obviously dodged, not lunged at Wolverine. It's Logan that's doing the lunging. Even in this position, Logan was able to reach out and stick him in the chest, despite Peter's attempt to dodge and his Spider-Sense.

You've been reading Jinzin's posts too much. I'll have to dig up the issue again, but it was fairly apparent that he was moving forward towards Wolverine attempting to attack. You'll have to read the entire issue to really understand the fued between them.

And Spider-Man suddenly being able to lift 50 tons of weight, which is roughly 5 times his supposed maximum, isn't a plot device? Yet you've argued that this has logic and what's more, that it's completely reasonable.

You know I intially never came up with the 50 ton mark..that was actually Mercilous..moving along however, I would say it all depends on how you interpret the word "lift." If you assume it to mean dead lifting an object that weighs 50 tons over one's head, then I would agree that he hasn't consistently demonstrated the ability to do this. However, if you are to interpret it as him being able to support a 50 ton building structure over his body for a limited period of time, then I can assure you he most certainly has. Case in point..one doesn't have to completely lift an object off the ground in order to lift it.

And as I mentioned before, it has been demonstrated that an average persons adrenaline levels when heightened enable them to become much much stronger than they are under normal conditions. 2-3 times more to be specific. Spiderman is not an average human being. He is usually shown to be in the 10-15 tonner in terms of strength.

It's highly probable that his adrenile glands produce adrenilen at a much quicker pace than a normal human, making his strength increase exponentially higher/faster when in stressful situations.

The situation was a stretch of 60 feet. Can you toss it horizontally? No, not with a 60 foot long piece of string/rope, not without running sideways along with it. This is a 60 foot long piece of rope here. All you'll succeed in doing is moving about a certain length of it. The rope is simply too long.

Otherwise, yes, it's entirely possible, but that's not what I was arguing.

If its possible to toss it based on the stipulation mentioned above, then that invalidates your argument. Even if one can not see it come off the ground, it still does lift off the ground to a limited extent. The degree to which it is lifted horizonatally/vertically in the air all depends on how much leverage one has when pulling it, what direction they are pulling it in, what position they are in, and how much force they are able to apply to it when attempting the pull.

All characters are under the stipulation of 'bloodlusted' now. Well then, seeing as how Spider-Man, according to you, was stabbed because his temper led him into an attack that wound up against him, why won't this simply happen again? 'Bloodlusted' Spidey has shown, in history, no example of using any clear or rational thought, much less coming up with a tactically sound battleplan. 'Bloodlusted' Spidey likes to get in there, good and close, where he can pound on and rip his enemies apart with his bare hands. Logan's already shown he can stab Spidey when he gets mad and stupid. I'd say Cap and Daredevil can do the same.

Unless I misunderstood your inclusion of the 'bloodlust' state of mind.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
What is meant is that the characters would not have to adhere to the usual morals codes/values that they are accustomed to in their respective comics. I believe "bloodlusted" was the term used at one point to describe this state.

"bloodlusted" meaning..going for the kill, and not hindered by worry about civilians deaths, there captured loved one, Spidey being in awe of Cap, Cap considering Spidey a "good kid" etc, etc.

When fighting without moral codes/values Wolverine usually becomes animalistic. Spideyman/DD/Cap are unknown quantities, however, SM has proven a damb difficult foe when he's focused and on the ball and has taken down some real heavy hitters that the Trio wouldn't stand a chance against, regardless of how intensified their abilities became.(Firelord, Ironman2020, Thor, etc, etc)

Could Cap/DD/Wolvie survive a battle with a SM who isn't worried about killing innocents fighting to his full potential?

yes.

"You've been reading Jinzin's posts too much. I'll have to dig up the issue again, but it was fairly apparent that he was moving forward towards Wolverine attempting to attack. You'll have to read the entire issue to really understand the fued between them."

their fued is an irrelivant issue in that pic.... spiderman is leaping the the side you don't have to read the entire issue...spiderman thought wolvie was hittin on his girl and she called logan a hairy midget....not like he really cared...than spiderman blew his cool...in any event spiderman's still shooting webbing and still leaping to the side...NOT LUNGING towards logan..anyone with eyes in their head and a bit of common sense can see that...

Wait so lets me get this straight, how on earth do they think, Spiderman could beat all 3, when Wolverine alone, could beat him ?

Originally posted by whobdamandog
And as I mentioned before, it has been demonstrated that an average persons adrenaline levels when heightened enable them to become much much stronger than they are under normal conditions. 2-3 times more to be specific. Spiderman is not an average human being. He is usually shown to be in the 10-15 tonner in terms of strength.

It's highly probable that his adrenile glands produce adrenilen at a much quicker pace than a normal human, making his strength increase exponentially higher/faster when in stressful situations.

Their fued is legendary. . .