"I don't think you've given enough evidence on how the trio could beat Spidey at all."
HAHAHAHA. oh man hat's funny! and so utterly ridiculous it doesn't even deserve a response.
"Just ask yourself that for a moment and see if it sinks in."
hmmmm.....................................okay did it.....IT STILL IS.
"And again I say, I do not believe that anyone who has defended the trio in this battle has given sufficient evidence as to how they're going to survive, much less beat Spidey in a battle. And with that, I am through, thank you for your time."
you'r right, you ARE through, if that's the best argument you can put up. the fact that you don't think we've given any decent reasoning for why the trio would beat spidey is downright ludicrous, and a testement to what cap said earlier on about how spidey fans don't read anything that would involve their favorite character etting trounced. Despite your opinions it doesn't change the fact that team trio is winning the poll, winning the debate, and simply winning his fight, now that's the end of the story for ya.
I'd take Spiderman over Wolverine and Daredevil individually. Captain America? Even though Spiderman is faster, smarter, quicker, and stronger, supposedly Captain America "always finds a way," right?
3 on 1? Actually this is not as lopsided as it seems. Spiderman did walk through, over, and under all of the X-Men in Secret Wars #3, I think it was (Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Rogue, Storm, Prof X). He is also 5x stronger than all of them combined (wolverine, DD, Captain America, that is). For whatever reason I just think that Captain America's tactical prowess should prevail, what with 3 bodies to work with.
[i]And about the Stan Lee thing, believe what you want as long as you don't compare him to the actual living God, well, you can, but I rebuke it rest assured. But still, alot of comic book characters, if not all of them, don't even know who Stan Lee is. So, while he is their "creator" in a comic book sense, I don't think that makes him their god. [/B]
not to get into a religious debate or anything...........(well maybe) but looking at stan lee as the marel universe God isn't that different from your view of "God" as our God
1) they don't know who stan is, you don't know who god is
2)"while he is their "creator" in a comic book sense, I don't think that makes him their god" - God is your creator in your religious view point because you believe he created you......... how is that different? (they just don't know their "God's" real name is Stan)
not that that really has anything to do with this thread, it just caught my interest
Originally posted by jinzin
[B"And again I say, I do not believe that anyone who has defended the trio in this battle has given sufficient evidence as to how they're going to survive, much less beat Spidey in a battle. And with that, I am through, thank you for your time."you'r right, you ARE through, if that's the best argument you can put up. the fact that you don't think we've given any decent reasoning for why the trio would beat spidey is downright ludicrous, and a testement to what cap said earlier on about how spidey fans don't read anything that would involve their favorite character etting trounced. Despite your opinions it doesn't change the fact that team trio is winning the poll, winning the debate, and simply winning his fight, now that's the end of the story for ya. [/B]
rather than mocking his argument or just quoting statistics why don't you add a plausible scenario to this thread which shows the trio winning in a way you believe to be credible and we can take it from there
the poll isn't really relevant to the debate portion and as someone pointed out before (i don't remember who..... sorry) the poll has three groups of fans voting for their favourite character (ok some of it is that but not all) against spider-man getting votes fromn one fan base
p.s. have you read Tron's attachement to the "READ ME" thread at the top of the main board? it say's no "Spidey V's Firelord" to be used in battles......... even though it did happen (but i never actually saw it)
Secret Wars 2 maybe.
Everyone on the X-men in the original Secret Wars is slower than sin. Wolverine included. Peak human reflexes vs. Spiderman's reflexes should be no contest what so ever.
In the one on one of Spiderman vs. Wolverine Spiderman is really impressed with Wolverine's speed. But in Secret Wars ALL of the X-men are impressed with Spiderman's speed. And in a Spiderman/Wolverine crossover/team up I have Spiderman saves Wolvie on like 2 separate occassions both of which left Wolverine awestruck by Spiderman's speed.
Head to head Spiderman should be able to do exactly what he did to Flash Thompson in the first Spiderman movie.
But understandably that would make all 3 of those characters FARRRR weaker than they have ever appeared in normal comic continuity. And then there's the "Cap Factor"
Never....how fast do you suppose old Cap America can huff that shield of his?
Originally posted by jinzin
exactly............and if we want to talk about crap writing secret wars is about as absurd as it comes.
but yeah spiderman did bounce all around the x-men, not that they were really going after him but nontheless.
How was it crap writing? And how were they not "really going after him?" They just could not touch him; he's that quick (well he does dodge bullets).
Re: Spiderman vs. Firelord, that was Amazing #269-270. I own the comic book, and was the one who mentioned that battle on this messageboard.
Re: Spiderman vs. Wolverine, it is fairly common to discount a character's lower end showings when discussing battles. Spiderman regularly dodges bullets -- Wolverine does not. Perhaps Spiderman thought Wolverine would be slower? That does not mean he is as quick as Spiderman is. Nightcrawler, no slouch himself, was amazed by how quick Spiderman was in Secret Wars #3 (http://alcazaba.unex.es/~palcfer/3.GIF ).
*shrug* Dunno.
Hrm, how fast can he chuck the shield? I don't know, good question.
Originally posted by Linkalicious
[B]Secret Wars 2 maybe.Everyone on the X-men in the original Secret Wars is slower than sin. Wolverine included. Peak human reflexes vs. Spiderman's reflexes should be no contest what so ever.
In the one on one of Spiderman vs. Wolverine Spiderman is really impressed with Wolverine's speed. But in Secret Wars ALL of the X-men are impressed with Spiderman's speed. And in a Spiderman/Wolverine crossover/team up I have Spiderman saves Wolvie on like 2 separate occassions both of which left Wolverine awestruck by Spiderman's speed.
Head to head Spiderman should be able to do exactly what he did to Flash Thompson in the first Spiderman movie.
But understandably that would make all 3 of those characters FARRRR weaker than they have ever appeared in normal comic continuity. And then there's the "Cap Factor"
Agreed...based on those two accounts you mentioned...SM really shouldn't have that much difficulty with Wolvie based on his stats..but unfortunately those stats don't count in the comic books..as its been stated before in this debate, many stories are written with the fan base in mind..and don't give accurate depictions as to what the characters should/could really do in battle....
If I wrote a story that really gave a true representation of all of the players stats..it would probably be less then a a bit more than a page..maybe lasting 10 panels at best.....I mean from a power/ability perspective...Spidey really outclasses the Trio.....
Originally posted by Never
I'd take Spiderman over Wolverine and Daredevil individually. Captain America? Even though Spiderman is faster, smarter, quicker, and stronger, supposedly Captain America "always finds a way," right?3 on 1? Actually this is not as lopsided as it seems. Spiderman did walk through, over, and under all of the X-Men in Secret Wars #3, I think it was (Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Rogue, Storm, Prof X). He is also 5x stronger than all of them combined (wolverine, DD, Captain America, that is). For whatever reason I just think that Captain America's tactical prowess should prevail, what with 3 bodies to work with.
Its possible...don't think it would be easy for the 3 to overcome Spidey..especially if he's going all out and not holding back. I have to say that I do like the Captain...much to everyone's surprise..lol...but recently it seems that people are putting his "tactical" abilities on a near God like level. He's starting to become like Batman with the "prep time" thing...no offense meant to Cap..but seeing as how this is a "random" battle...there's only so much that he can strategize at the spur of the moment...
Well whobdamandog, I agree, but Marvel is to blame for that...the same way DC makes Batman almost godlike with prep time. I recall many nasty debates regarding that, but I didn't design Batman, DC wrote him that way. Grant Morrison is partially responsible for elevating Batman to such heights as well.
I'll disagree on not being able to strategize impromptu -- isn't that what they do? What is a good example...ooh, here you go. Take Peyton Manning, who is exceptional when it comes to reading defenses. I'll say Cap's being able to shift fluidly "on the run" during a battle is akin to Peyton Manning being able to quickly determine (at the line of scrimmage) what defense the defense is in pre AND post-snap.
I mean, that's what Batman does (and he's JLA's strategist). He did the same thing when they fought Mageddon. Did the same thing while fighting the white martians. Analyzing while on the run, and altering his plan accordingly.
My interpretation of Cap's skill is that he can, during the course of a fight, determine what the best route to victory will be...AND effect it.
Does that make any sense?
Btw, yeah, that's asking a bit much of Spidey to defeat all 3 at once. Some are acting as if it would be a turn the lights out and turn them back on and you'll find Spidey blindfolded and hogtied. Nah, give ol' Parker more credit than that.
Originally posted by Never
Well whobdamandog, I agree, but Marvel is to blame for that...the same way DC makes Batman almost godlike with prep time. I recall many nasty debates regarding that, but I didn't design Batman, DC wrote him that way. Grant Morrison is partially responsible for elevating Batman to such heights as well.I'll disagree on not being able to strategize impromptu -- isn't that what they do? What is a good example...ooh, here you go. Take Peyton Manning, who is exceptional when it comes to reading defenses. I'll say Cap's being able to shift fluidly "on the run" during a battle is akin to Peyton Manning being able to quickly determine (at the line of scrimmage) what defense the defense is in pre AND post-snap.
I mean, that's what Batman does (and he's JLA's strategist). He did the same thing when they fought Mageddon. Did the same thing while fighting the white martians. Analyzing while on the run, and altering his plan accordingly.
Good points..but I think you have to take into account that Batman's very accustomed to working with JLA..and has an extensive knowledge of their respective powers, weaknesses..etc..etc..The team also compliments each other very well in the abilities/skills departments...and the fact that he has the rest of the JLA to fall back on is the main reason as to why he's even able to have "prep time"/strategize during their battles.
Take Superman/Wonderwoman/Aquaman/GL/Flash out of the equation..and face him against an opponent he's unfamiliar with or out powered by...and he gets taken down rather easily..Just look at the Prometheus/Bane battles....
My interpretation of Cap's skill is that he can, during the course of a fight, determine what the best route to victory will be...AND effect it.Does that make any sense?
Well it sort of makes sense..but I don't think your taking into account that Cap...although familiar with his allies in this scenario..is not accustomed to working with the likes of Wolverine/DD.
In addition to this liability...the Trio all have similar ower levels/abilities(they're all more or less street level hand to hand combatants) and don't really compliment each other very well, at least on an "ability" level.
They don't have any other powers to fall back on (like super strength, superspeed, invisibilty, energy blasts, telepathy..etc..etc) if the "hand to hand" combat stategy doesn't fare well.
Case in point..the only thing the Trio would really have to rely open for their basis of attack would be throwing kicks, punches, claw swipes..etc etc. Now what would they do if SM avoided all these attack(which he is definately capable of with the spider sense/super speed) and stuck himself to a building? A side from standard throwing the shield and billy club...What else would they have to rely upon in taking SM down?
SM on the other hand..is a little more "equipped" in the ability department..and won't have to rely on just punching/kicking to attack them(ie webshooters) Combine this with his vastly superior physical attributes(speed, agility, strength, stamina..etc) and I believe you have a very difficult opponent for the Trio to face...particularly if he's fighting at his best...
Now if Captain were working with any of the individuals that he works with a normal basis......I'd say he'd have a better chance of defeating an all out SM. Put Cap with Black Knight and Sersi.....and I believe the three will actually defeat SM rather easily..because unlike the Trio..the three have complimentary differences in their abilities..and they're used to working together as a team.
"That does not mean he is as quick as Spiderman is"
yeah I suppose that's why siderman quotes that wolverine may actually be faster than himself huh?
Anyways, I agree that the trio is limited to mostly h2h combat, however, there's no need to discard their abilities in any fight. These guys can of course take down all sorts of enemies using just their hand to hand combat techniques. Spiderman has been pummbled by some pretty pathetic foes in hand to hand combat (ei:8 deathspawn) and even though in an all out fight I agree spider-man is nothing to be taken lightly (firelord), niether are any of these heroes. Seriously when Wolverine goes "All out" he becomes a nearly unstopable killing machine ruthless relentless and unforgiving. People seem to mistake wolverine in that they think he goes all out all the time, but this simply isn't true, however when he does, watch the **** out!
As I stated before Spiderman threw nearly everything he had at wolverine and wolverine just smiled at it. Spiderman couldn't even instantly kill a human with a punch to the face using all the strength he had left at the end of it (for a guy that can level solid walls). Yet, everytime team trio brings up examples of how spiderman had been hit/hurt in h2h combat, or rivaled by street leveled characters, all we get in response is the pathetic "crap writing" argument (if you can call it one)
The thing is this, team trio HAS indeed come up with viable reasons and multiple scenarios as to why they should and would win, so I'm really not interested in producing yet another. The fact is although these fighters are limited to street level tactics and h2h combat, it's all they really need, it suites them and it's more than enough to take spiderman apart at the seams. I agree the trio won't be having a walk through the park in dealing with spiderman but I have yet to hear any believable scenario as to how spiderman can beat the three of these guys at the same time.
I agree the trio won't be having a walk through the park in dealing with spiderman but I have yet to hear any believable scenario as to how spiderman can beat the three of these guys at the same time.
Well I believe this scenario to be plausible and logical...(*note I posted this in the previous post and many others)
Please read below and answer the question to the best of your ability...
Case in point..the only thing the Trio would really have to rely open for their basis of attack would be throwing kicks, punches, claw swipes..etc etc. Now what would they do if SM avoided all these attack(which he is definately capable of with the spider sense/super speed) and stuck himself to a building? A side from standard throwing the shield and billy club...What else would they have to rely upon in taking SM down?
