And Firelord is stronger then the Hulk...
Every time Spider-man faces a street level hero they are almost even in speed, every time! The argument seems to be that Spider-man fans think he should be faster so ignore all of his showings against other street levels who are shown and on a few occasions even stated by Spider-man himself to be his equal in speed.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
And Firelord is stronger then the Hulk...Every time Spider-man faces a street level hero they are almost even in speed, every time! The argument seems to be that Spider-man fans think he should be faster so ignore all of his showings against other street levels who are shown and on a few occasions even stated by Spider-man himself to be his equal in speed.
And street-level characters are overrated, expecially when in battle with Spidey. The whole thing with the street-level characters matching Spidey in speed and even beating the guy has been disproven. Spidey likes to hold back alot, especially when fighting peak humans. And some of it is just for boosting market sales.
There have been too many occasions in which Spidey has pulled out the speed against chracters that completely outclass the peak humans and prevailed quite soundly. Forget the peak humnans being overrated, they are, but Spidey is just underrated when compared to these weaklings. Seriously, when compared to Spidey they are weaklings.
Why even take these battles in perspective when Spidey has so many claims to victory over much more powerful characters under his belt? The peak humans just can't compete, say what you want about Cap's shield, DD's triumph over characters waaayyy out of his league thanks to PIS, and Wolvie's claws, exaggerated healing factor, and attitude. I just don't think they have what it takes to beat Spidey.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Because you are a deluded fan boy? That is a rhetorical question, no need to answer it.
You can't actually prove that a peak human like DD and Cap. as well as a low, low, low, low, low level superhuman like Wolvie could be as fast as Spidey. You just take what you see in comics and go from there. But think about it, deeply. Spidey has contorted and maneuvered his way through what seemed to be insurmountable odds, and with good reason.
The guy is the most agile character in MARVEL and would be in DC as well, if he were to cross over. There have been plenty of showings to prove it. His reflexes are 30-40 times faster than that of a human when assisted by the spider sense, making him quite soundly the quickest character in terms of reactions. There's also the speed medium, when he kicked into high gear, he's made the likes of Iron Man 2020 look ametuerish, as well as the FF, the X-Men, the Enforcers (moreso in a second confrontation), and the Sinister Six. Please note that these are all well-organized and powerful teams when composed. And really, how can you prove this wrong. These victories are within reason when you look at the ways he won, the strategies he used, combining his agility, speed (reflex wise and in aerial maneuverabilty), and strength into a package overwhelming for a character with even so much as one or two vulnerable spots. Tell me, how can you justify a peak human doing these things? As well as accomplishing the ridicoulous feats they have pulled off in the past? You can try, but, I just don't know how you could.
Yeah but how come DD always beats Spider-man everytime they fight? I really am asking because there has never been an issue where either really finesh the fight with a K.O. instead DD dodges all the punches and Spider-man hurts himself until hes too tired. But the police have gotten involved in a few and it always winds up DD and Spider-man teaming up to clear his name...but that is one fight Spider-man will never win.
Personaly I don't think Cap, DD and Wolverine have any business doing more then half the things they do and still keep the label human. Writers are just now starting to acknowledge Wolverine has "enhanced speed and agility," and with the crap he has been pulling for the last 30 years it is about time started to get away from the peak human thing.
Nothing done by any high end street levels is realistic thats why I don't think it is a good arguement to say, "Spider-man has 40x human reflexes so he must be much fast then a peak human." Also doesn't Spiderman have 40x the reflexes of skinny science kid that was less then physically active? I'm sure there is someone in the world that has reflexes 10 times (that might be a bit much) faster then my own, is it such a stretch to think that these "human" characters can compeat with Spiderman in the speed department?
Originally posted by Cosmo Kramer
Yeah but how come DD always beats Spider-man everytime they fight? I really am asking because there has never been an issue where either really finesh the fight with a K.O. instead DD dodges all the punches and Spider-man hurts himself until hes too tired. But the police have gotten involved in a few and it always winds up DD and Spider-man teaming up to clear his name...but that is one fight Spider-man will never win.
Honestly, your little setup here has been so overused I can scarecly stand to reply to it. But, come back with the same thing if you please, just be sure to read mine and other posts first before you state the disproven. Please, just read them.
Please.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Personaly I don't think Cap, DD and Wolverine have any business doing more then half the things they do and still keep the label human. Writers are just now starting to acknowledge Wolverine has "enhanced speed and agility," and with the crap he has been pulling for the last 30 years it is about time started to get away from the peak human thing.Nothing done by any high end street levels is realistic thats why I don't think it is a good arguement to say, "Spider-man has 40x human reflexes so he must be much fast then a peak human." Also doesn't Spiderman have 40x the reflexes of skinny science kid that was less then physically active? I'm sure there is someone in the world that has reflexes 10 times (that might be a bit much) faster then my own, is it such a stretch to think that these "human" characters can compeat with Spiderman in the speed department?
No these peak humans can not compete with Spidey in the speed or agility department. Spidey's stats have already proven this within itself. Peak humans have PEAK reflexes, PEAK senses (with DD as the only exception I can think of), PEAK strength, PEAK speeds, and PEAK agility (actually it varies in this department, some peak humans don't even have that level of agility.) Everything about a peak human (with DD's senses as the only possible exception, what with his superhuman senses) has to do with being at the PEAK of HUMAN performance, sure their abilities have been pushed beyond these limits thanks to PIS, but when you take that away, then you only a peak human at the height of human performance. Nothing more, nothing less. There's a reason why they call guys like Spider-Man SUPERhumans Srank. There's having benching 800 lbs., and there's benching 10 tons or more (depending on stress or desperation or full-on fury.) There's moving faster than an Olmpyian, and there's moving faster than most compact cars. There's bouncing around a thug with a gun, and there's bouncing around the FF. Do you see where I'm going with this?
Superhuman (up here)
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Peak human (down here)
"Thanks for that laugh, Cap flooring Spidey? Man....this is guy is just too popular. And much too overrated."
HAHAHA now that's funny. You call spiderman beating Firelord decent,,,,but the cap flooring spiderman,,,,,,in a spiderman title I might add, and you say it's cause caps overrated and too popular? last time I checked it wasn't the cap who had well over 5 to even 7 (at times) ongoing titles, with such muddled writing that the stories don't even maintain coninuity for the character they're written for. pfffffffffft hahahaha and cap's the overratted popular one?.....wait let me think about this....who had several of his own animated series' as well as a live action t.v. show both here and in japan,,,,and ummm fan made movies as well as two huge blockbuster hollywood productions? oh that's right it was the guy who isn't sporting the A on his skull. Honestly,,,you have the nerve to belittle others' logic? my ass.
"Your argument? Comic books."
better than yours..."oh that was crap writing blah blah blah".
"Every time Spider-man faces a street level hero they are almost even
in speed, every time! The argument seems to be that Spider-man fans think he should be faster so ignore all of his showings against other street levels who are shown and on a few occasions even stated by Spider-man himself to be his equal in speed."
lol exactly, spiderman got tagged by the prowler for craps sake, this trio would maul him.
"You can't actually prove that a peak human like DD and Cap. as well as a low, low, low, low, low level superhuman like Wolvie could be as fast as Spidey."
yeah the fact that all these guys have fought spidey one on one and either slapped him around, or where on par with him, proves nothing huh? you're "arguments" and judgments to anyone who's logical enough to vote trio here is excrutiatingly pathetic.
"Spidey has contorted and maneuvered his way through what seemed to be insurmountable odds, and with good reason."
so have all these heroes. is that really your argument? please don't waste out time.
"Please note that these are all well-organized and powerful teams when composed. And really, how can you prove this wrong. "
well, we don't have to if we use your method of debate "it was crap writing"! hahahaha.
"You're views have been proven wrong. You're arguments have been proven wrong. You've been proven wrong."
yep, no one's a match for the "I'm right cause your characters are crap writing" argument you got going for yourself. pffffft
good point Merc.
he's cool but for all intents and purposes he's just a street level hero with half a dozen 3rd rate maybe 4th rate "batman" like gadgets and a blackbet in tai kwon do. If he can give spiderman difficulty much less tag him no one has any business telling me that this trio would not take it to spidey.
BTW: the firelord thing isn't quite as ridiculous as some may claim (albiet it is stupid beyond all measure) Firelord did get blown up twice and had a building drop on him before he was fatigued enough to get dropped by spiderman punches.
You spidey guys keep asking team trio to post viable scenarios where the trio would win, and we have, so many that that request doesn't even deserve a response. However I have a much more logical question for ya,
ALL THREE OF THESE GUYS HAVE TAKEN IT TO SPIDEY AT LEAST ONCE, (the captain america one even suggested how not impressive spiderman truly was to spiderman.) what makes you assume that all three at once couldn't just humiliate spiderman?
And another thing, Spiderman has never ever ever been so enraged (and he's had good reasons to be enraged by far), so consumed with anger, that he wouldn't appeal to logical thought. Captain america talked the avengers out of getting killed when those (not celestials, I forget what the hell you call em and i refuse to go look) had the team at their clutches in the 8th day saga crap. Captain america appeals to spiderman's sense of logic spidey lets his gaurd down and POW wolvie sucker aces him (this isn't something wolverine is above doing either, he's attacked his own x-men too many times to put it past him).
lol all I know is someone made a very good point in that street level characters have proven to give spidey a good run for his money time and time again. You can belittle everyone and ridicule their ways of debate all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that so far all you've done is given a bunch of "nu-uh" and "crap writing" arguments, and repeated 40x faster more times than i care to check. If you're going to just discard every time a street level character has had a decent showing against spiderman (and there have been more than a few), or a regular speedster has hit spidey as crap writing,,,,well that's about as valid an argument as saying "THESE TRIO SUPPORTERS HAVE NO CREDABILITY, ALL THEY HAVE TO RELY ON, IS FACTS"
pfffffft. this is ridiculous, go trio.
Originally posted by jinzin
"Thanks for that laugh, Cap flooring Spidey? Man....this is guy is just too popular. And much too overrated."HAHAHA now that's funny. You call spiderman beating Firelord decent,,,,but the cap flooring spiderman,,,,,,in a spiderman title I might add, and you say it's cause caps overrated and too popular? last time I checked it wasn't the cap who had well over 5 to even 7 (at times) ongoing titles, with such muddled writing that the stories don't even maintain coninuity for the character they're written for. pfffffffffft hahahaha and cap's the overratted popular one?.....wait let me think about this....who had several of his own animated series' as well as a live action t.v. show both here and in japan,,,,and ummm fan made movies as well as two huge blockbuster hollywood productions? oh that's right it was the guy who isn't sporting the A on his skull. Honestly,,,you have the nerve to belittle others' logic? my ass.
"Your argument? Comic books."
better than yours..."oh that was crap writing blah blah blah".
"Every time Spider-man faces a street level hero they are almost even
in speed, every time! The argument seems to be that Spider-man fans think he should be faster so ignore all of his showings against other street levels who are shown and on a few occasions even stated by Spider-man himself to be his equal in speed."lol exactly, spiderman got tagged by the prowler for craps sake, this trio would maul him.
"You can't actually prove that a peak human like DD and Cap. as well as a low, low, low, low, low level superhuman like Wolvie could be as fast as Spidey."
yeah the fact that all these guys have fought spidey one on one and either slapped him around, or where on par with him, proves nothing huh? you're "arguments" and judgments to anyone who's logical enough to vote trio here is excrutiatingly pathetic.
"Spidey has contorted and maneuvered his way through what seemed to be insurmountable odds, and with good reason."
so have all these heroes. is that really your argument? please don't waste out time.
"Please note that these are all well-organized and powerful teams when composed. And really, how can you prove this wrong. "
well, we don't have to if we use your method of debate "it was crap writing"! hahahaha.
"You're views have been proven wrong. You're arguments have been proven wrong. You've been proven wrong."
yep, no one's a match for the "I'm right cause your characters are crap writing" argument you got going for yourself. pffffft
good point Merc.
And you dare judge my arguments? When it was you who brought Spidey fighting guy who took over the world and gave it away when he was bored with it (Doom) just to find a scenario where Spidey was so "easily" defeated? Pffft. You're the last guy who needs to judge other's arguments. I've brought ALOT more to the table than the crap writing argument. If someone feels that I insulted them...I apologize. But after all the Spidey scenarios that I as well as others have brought to the table....only to have you wrinkle your nose at them with some "Doom beat Spidey" bullsh*t , you're the last person that needs to judge ANYONE's arguments.
And you dare call me pathetic? After I explained to you just how powerful Spidey was compared to the peak humans, and that the methods and ways in which they beat Spidey (which they shouldn't do in the first place) where redicoulous? Not to mention how others as well as I have explained how Spidey vs. Cap, Spidey vs. Wolvie, and Spidey vs. DD are almost non-fights from a vital standpoint. Looks like you need to checkup on your logic....hypocrite.
And the insurmountable odds that Spidey faced and the insurmountable odds the peak humans have faced are almost two COMPLETELY different things. The insurmountable odds Spidey have faced weren't all that insurmountable when you think about it, seeing that using his wits, agility (superior to that of any peak human), fighting style (unmatched by peak humans on up), webbing, and speed.
The peak humans were facing insurmountable odds that were indeed, insurmountable. But, despite this, they still won...thanks to PIS. C'mon, even you should know a peak human has limits, limits that Spidey just does not have, in other words....
Spidey's limits
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A peak human's limits
And your snippy little comment about how I used the crap writing argument, you could prove my other statement wrong by calling it crap writing, just proves you're desperation to get one of your stupid claims across. Yes, I did use the crap writing argument (not primarily) and I say this with pride because unlike you jinzin, I can admit when something's crap writing, like, I never said that Spidey would mutilate Superman, he'd be murdered. But as for these guys, they aren't Supermen, they aren't even superhumans period. And going up against a superhuman, especially one as uniquely set with his powers as Spidey, they don't have much of a chance.
And Cosmo, if you're out there, I apologize. My statement was out of line.
Same goes for you Srank, and anyone else out there who felt I may have gone overboard (even you jinzin) with getting my point across.
I still think Spidey could win quite easily. I just don't want to express it in a hostile way, and again, if you felt believe I did, I apologize.
Originally posted by MERCILOUS
Reflexes don't make you faster, they just give you more time to react. There really isn't a connection between the two. You've chosen to ignore the fact that "street level" characters keep up or even outclass spidey in speed. Choosing to do so in no way makes your arguements valid.
What I am saying is that peak humans and guys with a martial arts background are overrated because of their skill and intensive training. No, Pete wasn't raised in a dojo or anything like that, with the powers he has at his disposal, he didn't have to be. He's created an unique fighting style combing agility, strength, speed, and reaction time (all of which are superior to DD's, Cap's, and Wolvie's) that has not (and won't be, by the looks of things) been matched by any other comic book character belonging to Marvel or DC. This, maneuverability on a surface superior to the opposed, agility and reflexes combined with the spider sense that's allowed him to dodge everything from bullets to attacks from the Hulk, jumping ability (he has a vertical leap of about 30ft) that would easily keep him out of reach of the good Cap, the man without fear, and the clawed canuck, strength he could use to waste DD and Cap. in two seperate speedblitzes or one-two punch combo, (and KO Wolvie, at the cost of a broken hand, or snatch out his organs after shoving his fist through his stomach as quickly as he could, pausing on occasion to dodge a claw attack, and kill him before he "regenerated" his organs.)
You could stack their stats side-by-side and, at a glance, tell that Spidey is their physical superior. His speed showings have proved overwhelming for various heroes and villains alike, mind you that the people on this long list have various powers and weopons at their disposal including energy projection, superhuman strength, superhuman durability and healing factors, four arms used for scaling walls and striking at speeds almost match that of Spidey's speed itself (when they're not used for the heavy lifting), pumpkin bombs, razor bats, a forumula crrated specifically for nullifying the spider sense and gliders that are very fast and very maneuverable in the air.
So you see, that's why I think that peak humans' abilities can be and are exaggerated. If they can beat a guy like this, a guy who's pushed Thor (when he had Mendleson's mind) to whip out mjolnir due to speed atatcks alone, a guy who drove his "physical equal" all the way to Europe from New York after a savage beating that almost killed him, gave Doc Ock arachniphobia after tearing off his tentacle harness with his bare hands, freaked out the Chamelion, tore the face off of Iron Man 2020 (with his bare hands yet again) during a full frontal attack, and danced around the Hulk on multiple occasions and confrontations, then these "peak" humans shouldn't be labeled as "peak" humans at all.
And reflexes have alot to do with speed. Especially in Spidey's case. They have made his movements quite faster, they make his movements faster than that of a gunmen weilding a handgun, shotgun, or any assortment of guns and projectiles, in some if not most cases, they make his reaction to a gunshot faster than the bullet itself. As with those who try to attack him physically. Reflexes have alot to do with speed, in particular the speed of his reaction to an attack.
I will admit that if Spider-man went all out on he would confuse the hell out of any other human being...but not DareDevil's radar sense because no matter how fast he can get up to or no matter how quick his reactions are he will still appear at the same speed as any other human being. He cannot trick that sense with a speedblitz or whatever the hell that guy dishes out. DD has gone up against Spider-man before and even though he isnt as strong (DD admits this) his senses do take care of the rest. If Spider-man cant hit DD he cannot knock him out but even if he did it really would not do nearly as much damage as you think.
When I see all these responses I believe that these people supporting Spider-man dont know what the rest of the heroes can do. Spider-mans spider sense does not outclass DD's radar sense at all. DD was able to use his senses to catch the FF four's jet when it was going as fast as it possibly could go, get in and take down the enemy, get the jet back on course then drop out and catch onto a fire escape with after dropping a thousand feet over New York city while being blind. No way he cant tackle Spider-man... just because hes faster then the average human.
You people do know that Spider-man was beaten by the Punisher, Kingpin, Joker (yes it did happen), Kraven, and Vulture one on one who do not have anywhere near the skill of this team. Actually the Punisher has given Spider-man some serious trouble and nearly killed him. The Kingpin threw him around almost as if he was much stronger then spidey, and Joker beat him by pure wit. Kraven the Hunter should have killed him while he had the chance and Vulture would have killed him had BlackCat not interfered and been killed herself.